| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| questing gm |
Posted - 21 Feb 2022 : 23:51:29
Out now on DMGuild: https://www.dmsguild.com/product_info.php?products_id=386190
You can see the Table of Contents here: https://twitter.com/GHC_and_Tacos/status/1494768271240880129/photo/1
Starting this scroll to gush, rant or anything in between. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 13 Sep 2022 : 23:49:09
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Yeah. But I have seen some stuff denying that part. Like Ed's tweets about how Lauzoril survived and stuff. So, it's good to see not all survived. It makes more sense.
This is because about half of them you never see die. Lauzoril, for example just jumps off a cliff. Ever heard of feather fall? Nuff Said. Plus he had a get out of jail free card with the Simbul.
Yaphyll kind of split in half or something. That's a weird one.
Mythrell'aa is an illusionist. Simulacrum. Feign Death. Any of 1000 other plausible scenarios says she's alive.
My memory is fuzzy on the others, but lets just assume that the seven most powerful wizards in a country of wizards are capable of casting contingency magics... once you go there, any of them might be alive, or cloned, or magic jarred, or something along those lines.
The only one that is hard to walk back is Devron, who was transformed into a manes. I think you need to make a story to bring him back. Some conjuration summons him (as a manes) and then something breaks the change.
Yeah, Yaphyll Sirtula "split herself and sent a portion of herself forward in time". She then gets covered in blue fire in the present.
On the others, we never see the Zulkir of Abjuration, Lallara Mediocros, die. She sends the warmage out and stays behind to fight Tam. I actually used a story idea that Lallara Mediocros and Lauzoril Tavai both work together and hold off Tam, but he traps them in that "pocket universe"... and they get freed during the second sundering.
We do actually see the Zulkir of Transmutation, Samas Kul, get bit in half by a giant magical set of teeth in addition to what happened to the zulkir of conjuration. We also have that Aznar Thrul was killed totally outside of all that. The two "replacement" zulkirs of invocation and necromancy were killed by Nevron outside of the conflict with Tam. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 09 Sep 2022 : 12:49:39
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Yeah. But I have seen some stuff denying that part. Like Ed's tweets about how Lauzoril survived and stuff. So, it's good to see not all survived. It makes more sense.
This is because about half of them you never see die. Lauzoril, for example just jumps off a cliff. Ever heard of feather fall? Nuff Said. Plus he had a get out of jail free card with the Simbul.
Yaphyll kind of split in half or something. That's a weird one.
Mythrell'aa is an illusionist. Simulacrum. Feign Death. Any of 1000 other plausible scenarios says she's alive.
My memory is fuzzy on the others, but lets just assume that the seven most powerful wizards in a country of wizards are capable of casting contingency magics... once you go there, any of them might be alive, or cloned, or magic jarred, or something along those lines.
The only one that is hard to walk back is Devron, who was transformed into a manes. I think you need to make a story to bring him back. Some conjuration summons him (as a manes) and then something breaks the change. |
| questing gm |
Posted - 09 Sep 2022 : 11:42:00
The authors are auctioning off a hand-written version of the book (I guess it's the manuscript?) with extra lore for charity:
https://twitter.com/GHC_and_Tacos/status/1567989747200688128 |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 11 Mar 2022 : 15:17:43
Yeah. But I have seen some stuff denying that part. Like Ed's tweets about how Lauzoril survived and stuff. So, it's good to see not all survived. It makes more sense. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 11 Mar 2022 : 08:25:00
Szass Tam killed almost all of the old zulkirs ... it's in RLB's "The Haunted Lands" trilogy.
-- George Krashos |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 10 Mar 2022 : 20:14:10
It seems Samas Kul is one of Szass Tam's liches. Which means he did die at the end of Unholy. It's good to see Tam was allowed to actually kill some of the old zulkirs.
What about the fate of the others? Does the book says something about them? |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 01 Mar 2022 : 14:15:22
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Not to be flippant but the Second Sundering undid what happened to Amruthar. When AO rewrote the Tablets of Fate, there must have been something in there that required the old version of Amruthar instead of the destroyed one. Does the new book make any reference to a god or priomordial being linked to that city? Or, was there a god or primordial linked to the destruction of the city? If so, the removal of that linkage may be what brought it back. It is very likely that anyone in Armuthar when it "came back" has no memory of the city's destruction. For them, that never happened. That erasure may effect everyone of non-divine stature so no one remembers that it was destroyed.
Edit: fixed typo.
Its not definitive, but they hint that Kossuth has ties to the area, but at the same time it's also likely that the ties are to a major artifact that was buried beneath the city (and could be both).
I'd bw fine with this explanation if it were added with some clarifications. It's just "there's some story here", since no other area that I know of affected memory of what it was like before. Ignoring that they changed it, if they realized, that's just a lapse and we're throwing together a fix.
This isn't new. They have put stuff out before that doesn't explain why something is suddenly the way it is. It could be that the explanation was there in Ed's book and it got cut by some editor. I would suggest you ask Ed about that on Twitter. That will give the definitive answer as to why the city is back like seemingly nothing happened.
That excuse doesn't float when it comes to an electronic thing on dm's guild. There's no editor forcing things out to make the book smaller and cheaper to print. I do get we've heard those things in the past with WotC, but we're talking a different type of publishing now. Still going through the book, maybe there will be something I've missed.
It isn't just electronic. You can also get a soft or hard cover printed version. In that case, there will be a word/page limit. $49 bucks for pdf AND a hard cover print is too expensive in my opinion but I am sure some people will pay that. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 01 Mar 2022 : 13:06:36
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Not to be flippant but the Second Sundering undid what happened to Amruthar. When AO rewrote the Tablets of Fate, there must have been something in there that required the old version of Amruthar instead of the destroyed one. Does the new book make any reference to a god or priomordial being linked to that city? Or, was there a god or primordial linked to the destruction of the city? If so, the removal of that linkage may be what brought it back. It is very likely that anyone in Armuthar when it "came back" has no memory of the city's destruction. For them, that never happened. That erasure may effect everyone of non-divine stature so no one remembers that it was destroyed.
Edit: fixed typo.
Its not definitive, but they hint that Kossuth has ties to the area, but at the same time it's also likely that the ties are to a major artifact that was buried beneath the city (and could be both).
I'd bw fine with this explanation if it were added with some clarifications. It's just "there's some story here", since no other area that I know of affected memory of what it was like before. Ignoring that they changed it, if they realized, that's just a lapse and we're throwing together a fix.
This isn't new. They have put stuff out before that doesn't explain why something is suddenly the way it is. It could be that the explanation was there in Ed's book and it got cut by some editor. I would suggest you ask Ed about that on Twitter. That will give the definitive answer as to why the city is back like seemingly nothing happened.
That excuse doesn't float when it comes to an electronic thing on dm's guild. There's no editor forcing things out to make the book smaller and cheaper to print. I do get we've heard those things in the past with WotC, but we're talking a different type of publishing now. Still going through the book, maybe there will be something I've missed. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 01 Mar 2022 : 02:31:41
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Not to be flippant but the Second Sundering undid what happened to Amruthar. When AO rewrote the Tablets of Fate, there must have been something in there that required the old version of Amruthar instead of the destroyed one. Does the new book make any reference to a god or priomordial being linked to that city? Or, was there a god or primordial linked to the destruction of the city? If so, the removal of that linkage may be what brought it back. It is very likely that anyone in Armuthar when it "came back" has no memory of the city's destruction. For them, that never happened. That erasure may effect everyone of non-divine stature so no one remembers that it was destroyed.
Edit: fixed typo.
Its not definitive, but they hint that Kossuth has ties to the area, but at the same time it's also likely that the ties are to a major artifact that was buried beneath the city (and could be both).
I'd bw fine with this explanation if it were added with some clarifications. It's just "there's some story here", since no other area that I know of affected memory of what it was like before. Ignoring that they changed it, if they realized, that's just a lapse and we're throwing together a fix.
This isn't new. They have put stuff out before that doesn't explain why something is suddenly the way it is. It could be that the explanation was there in Ed's book and it got cut by some editor. I would suggest you ask Ed about that on Twitter. That will give the definitive answer as to why the city is back like seemingly nothing happened. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Feb 2022 : 20:02:52
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, then that makes the whole question of Amruthar pretty odd, since it goes from a ruined city with a fire mummy, to a pretty place with people living there in just... six or 8 years? No explanation even why. I haven't gotten around to the cities yet, but since Krash noticed this, I figured I'd look. Wonder about the area that was labeled "the High Desert" in 4e lore, or are we back to Thay being somehow fertile everywhere? Will have to keep that in the back of my mind as I delve more. Maybe they will have some sort of explanation buried in the book.... after all, the gaping pit that was the shaar got filled in (which I like).
Urban destruction in the Realms seems to get undone very quickly. Zhentil Keep was rebuilt in 10 years; Myth Drannor was somehow rebuilt and cleansed of twisted magic and lurking baddies in just five years... Obviously, Realmsian construction companies are top notch!
Remind me (serious here) what happened to "destroy" Zhentil Keep (twice)? Just curious if it can reasonably compare to a volcano opening under the streets and earthquakes tearing the place to shreds. Obviously, anything can theoretically be done with magic. Definitely should be something with something of an explanation though.
Not to be flippant but the Second Sundering undid what happened to Amruthar. When AO rewrote the Tablets of Fate, there must have been something in there that required the old version of Amruthar instead of the destroyed one. Does the new book make any reference to a god or priomordial being linked to that city? Or, was there a god or primordial linked to the destruction of the city? If so, the removal of that linkage may be what brought it back. It is very likely that anyone in Armuthar when it "came back" has no memory of the city's destruction. For them, that never happened. That erasure may effect everyone of non-divine stature so no one remembers that it was destroyed.
Edit: fixed typo.
Its not definitive, but they hint that Kossuth has ties to the area, but at the same time it's also likely that the ties are to a major artifact that was buried beneath the city (and could be both).
I'd bw fine with this explanation if it were added with some clarifications. It's just "there's some story here", since no other area that I know of affected memory of what it was like before. Ignoring that they changed it, if they realized, that's just a lapse and we're throwing together a fix. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Feb 2022 : 05:37:43
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Remind me (serious here) what happened to "destroy" Zhentil Keep (twice)? Just curious if it can reasonably compare to a volcano opening under the streets and earthquakes tearing the place to shreds. Obviously, anything can theoretically be done with magic. Definitely should be something with something of an explanation though.
Shade flattened it, for reasons. And also for reasons, the Zhents decided to show their strength by saying "Yeah, our enemies flattened our home base, and even though we've rebuilt before, we're just going to run and hide this time." |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 26 Feb 2022 : 17:23:22
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, then that makes the whole question of Amruthar pretty odd, since it goes from a ruined city with a fire mummy, to a pretty place with people living there in just... six or 8 years? No explanation even why. I haven't gotten around to the cities yet, but since Krash noticed this, I figured I'd look. Wonder about the area that was labeled "the High Desert" in 4e lore, or are we back to Thay being somehow fertile everywhere? Will have to keep that in the back of my mind as I delve more. Maybe they will have some sort of explanation buried in the book.... after all, the gaping pit that was the shaar got filled in (which I like).
Urban destruction in the Realms seems to get undone very quickly. Zhentil Keep was rebuilt in 10 years; Myth Drannor was somehow rebuilt and cleansed of twisted magic and lurking baddies in just five years... Obviously, Realmsian construction companies are top notch!
Remind me (serious here) what happened to "destroy" Zhentil Keep (twice)? Just curious if it can reasonably compare to a volcano opening under the streets and earthquakes tearing the place to shreds. Obviously, anything can theoretically be done with magic. Definitely should be something with something of an explanation though.
Not to be flippant but the Second Sundering undid what happened to Amruthar. When AO rewrote the Tablets of Fate, there must have been something in there that required the old version of Amruthar instead of the destroyed one. Does the new book make any reference to a god or priomordial being linked to that city? Or, was there a god or primordial linked to the destruction of the city? If so, the removal of that linkage may be what brought it back. It is very likely that anyone in Armuthar when it "came back" has no memory of the city's destruction. For them, that never happened. That erasure may effect everyone of non-divine stature so no one remembers that it was destroyed.
Edit: fixed typo. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Feb 2022 : 17:01:16
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, then that makes the whole question of Amruthar pretty odd, since it goes from a ruined city with a fire mummy, to a pretty place with people living there in just... six or 8 years? No explanation even why. I haven't gotten around to the cities yet, but since Krash noticed this, I figured I'd look. Wonder about the area that was labeled "the High Desert" in 4e lore, or are we back to Thay being somehow fertile everywhere? Will have to keep that in the back of my mind as I delve more. Maybe they will have some sort of explanation buried in the book.... after all, the gaping pit that was the shaar got filled in (which I like).
Urban destruction in the Realms seems to get undone very quickly. Zhentil Keep was rebuilt in 10 years; Myth Drannor was somehow rebuilt and cleansed of twisted magic and lurking baddies in just five years... Obviously, Realmsian construction companies are top notch!
Remind me (serious here) what happened to "destroy" Zhentil Keep (twice)? Just curious if it can reasonably compare to a volcano opening under the streets and earthquakes tearing the place to shreds. Obviously, anything can theoretically be done with magic. Definitely should be something with something of an explanation though. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 25 Feb 2022 : 20:21:52
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Obviously, Realmsian construction companies are top notch!
It's magic!
Use people to build stuff? Perish the thought. Especially if you have secret doors/hallways/rooms. Magic saves you the trouble of having to hunt down everyone who worked on the project and kill them. With magic, you only need kill the engineer who designed the structure. No muss, no fuss. Easy-peasy buildings and tunnels today.
(Warning: please to not attempt to kill the mage casting these spells to build your structures. You will have the structure of your dreams to live out the rest of your days in. However short that may be in your current form or condition if you cross us.) |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 25 Feb 2022 : 19:21:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Obviously, Realmsian construction companies are top notch!
It's magic! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Feb 2022 : 18:26:54
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
So, then that makes the whole question of Amruthar pretty odd, since it goes from a ruined city with a fire mummy, to a pretty place with people living there in just... six or 8 years? No explanation even why. I haven't gotten around to the cities yet, but since Krash noticed this, I figured I'd look. Wonder about the area that was labeled "the High Desert" in 4e lore, or are we back to Thay being somehow fertile everywhere? Will have to keep that in the back of my mind as I delve more. Maybe they will have some sort of explanation buried in the book.... after all, the gaping pit that was the shaar got filled in (which I like).
Urban destruction in the Realms seems to get undone very quickly. Zhentil Keep was rebuilt in 10 years; Myth Drannor was somehow rebuilt and cleansed of twisted magic and lurking baddies in just five years... Obviously, Realmsian construction companies are top notch! |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Feb 2022 : 18:15:47
quote:
Originally posted by questing gm
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Of course, the question is what year is this even slated for, because as I note in the above, this product dates the spellplague as "150 years ago" not "100 years ago".
Ed addressed this in a tweet:quote:
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1496629665305354243
Feb 24, 2022
@caverntrolls
It says in the book 150 years after the spell plague, does that put it at 1535 DR or was that over zealous rounding. I think Salvatores last book was 1490 DR. Decent into Avernus 1492.
@TheEdVerse
That's overzealous rounding. ;}
The book has to be set in 1497 DR, or a year or at most 2 years later.
So, then that makes the whole question of Amruthar pretty odd, since it goes from a ruined city with a fire mummy, to a pretty place with people living there in just... six or 8 years? No explanation even why. I haven't gotten around to the cities yet, but since Krash noticed this, I figured I'd look. Wonder about the area that was labeled "the High Desert" in 4e lore, or are we back to Thay being somehow fertile everywhere? Will have to keep that in the back of my mind as I delve more. Maybe they will have some sort of explanation buried in the book.... after all, the gaping pit that was the shaar got filled in (which I like). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Feb 2022 : 18:11:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Burning Amruthar: Once an independent city within Thay, Amruthar bore the brunt of the land’s devastation. Earthquakes splintered it, lava and mud wrecked some parts, and a rain of rock and ash buried others. Deep chasms that formed within the city filled with molten rock that never cooled. Miraculously, the black ziggurat dedicated to Kossuth survived the ruin.
The high priest of that temple, the mummy lord Chon Vrael, maintains the place to this day and welcomes worshipers, defying the Thayan ban on deities other than Bane. Chon is a fierce enemy of Szass Tam. The priest commands a small army of fanatics and elemental creatures, including a tribe of fire giants, which helps him keep the city free of Thayan control for now. Some suspect that the Regent of Thay tolerates Burning Amruthar for his own reasons
A mummy priest of the god of fire? Aren't D&D mummies slightly more flammable than gasoline?
If I were a mummy priest, approaching the god that might give me fire immunity sounds like a right good proposition. But either way, that's been in the books since ... what 2008/2009? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 25 Feb 2022 : 16:40:23
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Burning Amruthar: Once an independent city within Thay, Amruthar bore the brunt of the land’s devastation. Earthquakes splintered it, lava and mud wrecked some parts, and a rain of rock and ash buried others. Deep chasms that formed within the city filled with molten rock that never cooled. Miraculously, the black ziggurat dedicated to Kossuth survived the ruin.
The high priest of that temple, the mummy lord Chon Vrael, maintains the place to this day and welcomes worshipers, defying the Thayan ban on deities other than Bane. Chon is a fierce enemy of Szass Tam. The priest commands a small army of fanatics and elemental creatures, including a tribe of fire giants, which helps him keep the city free of Thayan control for now. Some suspect that the Regent of Thay tolerates Burning Amruthar for his own reasons
A mummy priest of the god of fire? Aren't D&D mummies slightly more flammable than gasoline? |
| questing gm |
Posted - 25 Feb 2022 : 12:59:38
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Of course, the question is what year is this even slated for, because as I note in the above, this product dates the spellplague as "150 years ago" not "100 years ago".
Ed addressed this in a tweet:quote:
https://twitter.com/TheEdVerse/status/1496629665305354243
Feb 24, 2022
@caverntrolls
It says in the book 150 years after the spell plague, does that put it at 1535 DR or was that over zealous rounding. I think Salvatores last book was 1490 DR. Decent into Avernus 1492.
@TheEdVerse
That's overzealous rounding. ;}
The book has to be set in 1497 DR, or a year or at most 2 years later.
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Feb 2022 : 12:42:29
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I wonder how much of 4e Thay this books preserves...
Not so much if the description of Amruthar is anything to go by.
-- George Krashos
So sad. I guess I'm one of the few who prefers Thay as was envisioned in 4e. And thank you, I was about to buy the book, but this makes me rethink it.
True, that place should be toast according to 4e lore, possibly tied to the artifact hinted at being buried beneath it in FRA (and possibly tied to the article George and Ed cowrote).
I'm one for moving things forward, not resetting them. Of course, the question is what year is this even slated for, because as I note in the above, this product dates the spellplague as "150 years ago" not "100 years ago".
from 4e FRCG
Burning Amruthar: Once an independent city within Thay, Amruthar bore the brunt of the land’s devastation. Earthquakes splintered it, lava and mud wrecked some parts, and a rain of rock and ash buried others. Deep chasms that formed within the city filled with molten rock that never cooled. Miraculously, the black ziggurat dedicated to Kossuth survived the ruin.
The high priest of that temple, the mummy lord Chon Vrael, maintains the place to this day and welcomes worshipers, defying the Thayan ban on deities other than Bane. Chon is a fierce enemy of Szass Tam. The priest commands a small army of fanatics and elemental creatures, including a tribe of fire giants, which helps him keep the city free of Thayan control for now. Some suspect that the Regent of Thay tolerates Burning Amruthar for his own reasons |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 25 Feb 2022 : 05:29:16
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I wonder how much of 4e Thay this books preserves...
Not so much if the description of Amruthar is anything to go by.
-- George Krashos
So sad. I guess I'm one of the few who prefers Thay as was envisioned in 4e. And thank you, I was about to buy the book, but this makes me rethink it. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 25 Feb 2022 : 01:47:01
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yes there may be some things that legendary people can do that's different, but when they want it to become something that is more everyday, the rules need to match.
No, they don’t. A PC is designed to survive many encounters, utilise short rests and long rests, and will develop over time because of a player. None of this is true for NPCs. I suggest looking at this, for example, on designing NPCs and monsters for 5e encounters and why they are not built like PCs with class levels:
https://dumpstatadventures.com/the-gm-is-always-right/dont-give-your-monsters-class-levels
A Red Wizard necromancer has a crew of 30 skeletons backing him up because that is the encounter the PC’s are having and the skeletons are, along with a NPC Necromancer wizard, what they need to defeat because they picked a fight. Or got ambushed, or whatever. He is not a player character, and as a result he does not have levels, or gain trained skills from a background. He does not have XP requirements of “defeat 4 PCs to gain enough XP to level up and change statblocks”.
If the encounter is not one in which the skeletons are mechanically relevant, such as a non combat meeting with the wizard, then the skeletons don’t have statblocks at all and have no impact on anything within the boundaries of the game mechanics. They exist as generic background to the scene.
quote:
That's one of the issues I have with this edition is just the math of things. It kind of needs to be gone over again with more of a fine tooth comb and less of an "use advantage for everything" approach.
The math in this particular context is fine. Things made for a purpose should be designed to fit that purpose. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Feb 2022 : 01:10:00
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(and there may be some other methods to get another slot back, etc...).
Far more than one slot if you are willing to “go ham” but that comes down to what the DM is willing to allow.
quote:
This is a glaring issue that they should address because that shouldn't be the case
No, it absolutely should. That is why things like Lair Actions, Legendary Actions, and Legendary Resistance all exist. Every edition of the game has given NPCs special powers or used mechanics that PCs do not have access to, all the way back to Elminster in FR7 and earlier. NPCs are not PCs. They are not designed the same way because their reason for existence within the structure of the game system is different. I don’t see Thay in this context as being any different to Elminster, or Larloch, or Drizzt, or whoever.
For example, Szass Tam in the Dead in Thay adventure has created a grand plan to suck power from Chosen and bootstrap himself into divinity. He can do this using no specified thing that the PCs could have. It isn’t a spell written in a spellbook that takes a spell slot and is cast using an action that targets all Chosen within X feet and that they save versus DC 20 to resist being sucked up like water through a straw, it isn’t an ability he has from being a Xth level wizard, it’s because he is an archmage who has developed a “powerful magic” that will do what the adventure says it does.
For another example, Larloch doesn’t even have a NPC stat block. His sole appearance in an adventure is “if you don’t escape he appears after 10 rounds and murders everybody present in whatever horrifying and grisly way the DM feels like describing”.
And yet the lore is wanting to have the average red wizards keeping undead slaves and the country considering doing away with having living slaves in preference of undead ones. Not Tam creating every single undead in the country. Yes there may be some things that legendary people can do that's different, but when they want it to become something that is more everyday, the rules need to match. That being said.... it can be a quick and easy fix. For instance, you don't want the party wizard having 500 skeleton soldiers, but you want the average 9th levl wizard in Thay to have a work crew of 30 skeletons? Well, take that mechanic for animate dead that it has to be renewed every day... and make it once a week. All of a sudden you've multiplied the number of undead by 7. A 9th level wizard using his 5th level spell slot every day to animate dead would affect 5 per day, allowing 35 under his control if he did it every day. In most other countries, wandering the countryside with 35 undead in tow would end up drawing unwanted attention, but in Thay... that's just a work crew. They might be able to keep a few hundred if they use all their high level slots to do it every single day.
In comparison, a 5th level caster in general would only be able to maintain 7 at once in general (14 if they use an ability to renew their highest level slot, etc..).
Ultimately, the idea behind most people playing a necromancer is to have undead minions. They may have other goals as well, but that's kind of the defining factor, and it can be fixed with some minor changes. Don't like those numbers? Well weekly renewal might just need to be every 3 days, etc.. That's one of the issues I have with this edition is just the math of things. It kind of needs to be gone over again with more of a fine tooth comb and less of an "use advantage for everything" approach.
Now, if a DM has a problem with their party wizard getting the bright idea of dragging 100 skeletons with him on an adventure into a dungeon... get creative. That dungeon has an invisible spell in place that removes the control created by animate dead, and now they're turned on the party. That dungeon has an area that is filled with positive energy, or a ward that prevents undead entry. Or simply make it hard for the party wizard to get ahold of a lot of bodies to animate (and he may have to do so as they kill things in the dungeon). |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 24 Feb 2022 : 23:59:33
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(and there may be some other methods to get another slot back, etc...).
Far more than one slot if you are willing to “go ham” but that comes down to what the DM is willing to allow.
quote:
This is a glaring issue that they should address because that shouldn't be the case
No, it absolutely should. That is why things like Lair Actions, Legendary Actions, and Legendary Resistance all exist. Every edition of the game has given NPCs special powers or used mechanics that PCs do not have access to, all the way back to Elminster in FR7 and earlier. NPCs are not PCs. They are not designed the same way because their reason for existence within the structure of the game system is different. I don’t see Thay in this context as being any different to Elminster, or Larloch, or Drizzt, or whoever.
For example, Szass Tam in the Dead in Thay adventure has created a grand plan to suck power from Chosen and bootstrap himself into divinity. He can do this using no specified thing that the PCs could have. It isn’t a spell written in a spellbook that takes a spell slot and is cast using an action that targets all Chosen within X feet and that they save versus DC 20 to resist being sucked up like water through a straw, it isn’t an ability he has from being a Xth level wizard, it’s because he is an archmage who has developed a “powerful magic” that will do what the adventure says it does.
For another example, Larloch doesn’t even have a NPC stat block. His sole appearance in an adventure is “if you don’t escape he appears after 10 rounds and murders everybody present in whatever horrifying and grisly way the DM feels like describing”. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 24 Feb 2022 : 22:41:41
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
I wonder how much of 4e Thay this books preserves...
Not so much if the description of Amruthar is anything to go by.
-- George Krashos |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Feb 2022 : 22:40:07
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
You can also use higher level spell slots to cast spells of a lower level. So if your average 17th level necromancer (most zulkirs are, I assume, there or higher) living in the sticks somewhere took the time, over the course of a month they could create an army of ninety undead. Over a year they would have a thousand (nine hundred and sixty technically, but who’s counting). That also assumes they don’t have any lesser spellcasters serving them to devote spell slots to it. Or the eponymous “coffeelock” build, among some other forms of loophole abuse to get more slots.
That being said, it is also worth noting that the system is designed for adventuring wizards. NPCs don’t play by the same rules (which is why they have different stat blocks and the like - while in some cases you can reverse engineer a NPC stat block into a player one, this isn’t always viable).
Yeah, someone of higher than 15th level COULD give up all their higher level spellcasting to accomplish it in a month and a half instead of 3 months (and there may be some other methods to get another slot back, etc...). They're still destroyed with just a few fireballs. Point being... noone in their right mind is wasting all that magic for THAT. Making low level zombies that any low level adventurer can trash just isn't worth that kind of effort. Also, telling me that NPC's don't play by the same mechanics isn't exactly an endearing argument in my book. This is a glaring issue that they should address because that shouldn't be the case (and there's a lot of things like that that got nerfed and I think a lot of the greybeards who would have noted it long ago aren't actually delving 5e mechanics anymore, and they're assuming things work like they used to... and I'm one of them in many cases... comes from reading the same stuff 50 times with a word here and there changed).
But my main point was that the "lore" we're being told doesn't match the "mechanics" of the edition. Having and maintaining large numbers of undead slaves is not viable in 5e without some rule changes (some of which I've tried to implement, but I'll add that I haven't focused heavily on this either). |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 24 Feb 2022 : 21:42:54
You can also use higher level spell slots to cast spells of a lower level. So if your average 17th level necromancer (most zulkirs are, I assume, there or higher) living in the sticks somewhere took the time, over the course of a month they could create an army of ninety undead. Over a year they would have a thousand (nine hundred and sixty technically, but who’s counting). That also assumes they don’t have any lesser spellcasters serving them to devote spell slots to it. Or the eponymous “coffeelock” build, among some other forms of loophole abuse to get more slots.
That being said, it is also worth noting that the system is designed for adventuring wizards. NPCs don’t play by the same rules (which is why they have different stat blocks and the like - while in some cases you can reverse engineer a NPC stat block into a player one, this isn’t always viable). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 24 Feb 2022 : 20:18:20
quote:
Originally posted by Eldacar
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(problem with that under 5e rules comes down to animate dead has to be cast every single day to renew control over a handful/single undead)
I don't have the book or anything like that, but usefully for a budding necromancer seeking to create hordes of undead to overtake the world, the 5e Finger of Death spell exists:
"A humanoid killed by this spell rises at the start of your next turn as a zombie that is permanently under your command, following your verbal orders to the best of its ability."
So it will create zombies that are permanently under the caster's control. I would expect most zulkirs and liches in Thay have access to it, as well.
Good to note. Thank you, and I had never noted that previously. That being said, let's play devil's advocate for a second. That's a 7th level spell. Caster needs to be at LEAST 13th level. Caster does not get a 2nd spell slot of 7th level until they reach 20th character level. So, a necromancer DEVOTED to making an undead army would have to give up their 7th level spell slot every single day for more than 3 months straight to make 100 zombies. Which would imply they have no other use they might want to put that 7th level spell slot towards ever. I'll admit that I can see someone making SOME zombies that way, but I don't see armies or hordes of slaves, etc... I especially don't see slaves being made from zombies for the most part because of hygenic reasons (whereas skeletons at least are clean(er)).
Then just to put another view on that... 3 months of work to create... then sent onto a battlefield and most of them destroyed in seconds by a couple wizards hurling fireballs. |
| Eldacar |
Posted - 24 Feb 2022 : 15:19:32
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
(problem with that under 5e rules comes down to animate dead has to be cast every single day to renew control over a handful/single undead)
I don't have the book or anything like that, but usefully for a budding necromancer seeking to create hordes of undead to overtake the world, the 5e Finger of Death spell exists:
"A humanoid killed by this spell rises at the start of your next turn as a zombie that is permanently under your command, following your verbal orders to the best of its ability."
So it will create zombies that are permanently under the caster's control. I would expect most zulkirs and liches in Thay have access to it, as well. |
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