| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| scererar |
Posted - 23 Feb 2009 : 05:07:01
It is returned Abeir, but it is from Ed 
14 page article in Dragon #372 on returned Tarmalune. Nice map. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Feb 2009 : 04:47:41
Well, there are a LOT of rules revolving around the clans, so thats a big chunk you need to disregard (or re-work for Kara-Tur).
Also, all the stuff about the Shadow Lands has to be chucked... its really not all that easy to splice-out the generic stuff with that tome.
I think the Vanara (Monkey-folk) were created just for that book, and didn't exist in Lot5R, but I can't think of anything else off the top of my head (oh... and Jade and Obsidian were used as the special materials of choice, whereas in Rokugon its Jade and Crystal). Otherwise, the whole book is extremely Rokugon-centric.
Although now that we got the Shadowfel in 4e, I can backwrds-engineer it to make the Shadow Land stuff work for K-T as well.
See... not all the new stuff is bad... 
And since I really want to bring this back-around on-topic ( ), there is a similar thread over at WotC, and someone was wondering about any conections between Kara-Tur and Returned Abeir. I think I would find an answer to that pretyy intersting myself. If Shou-Lung or any of the other nations established colonies in Maztica, or even Anchorome or Katrashaka, then there should be something of note going on over in the Celestial Sea.
Also, considering how Orientals revere dragons rather then hunt them, there's definately some possibilites there. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 23:00:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The other regions were ALL showcased as seperate 'sub-settings' of FR, and one - Zakhara - actually was designed to be used ANYWHERE - its history wasn't linked to FR at all, beyond a couple of small things (like foriegn gods), and I've seen more folks use it as a 'stand-alone' product then as an FR one.
All five sub-settings - Hordelands, Kara-Tur, Malatra (RPGA), Maztica, & Zakhara - were presented in a seperate line of products. Even in the 3e FRCS, they got only a mention. If people wanted to use these very different regions, they had the option to look into these other lines and expand their world.
Just as a point of reference, Kara-Tur was originally a stand-alone area, as well. The first few products, including the original 1E Oriental Adventures tome, didn't have any references to a larger world. It was only later that the OA stuff was bolted on to the Realms, with the earlier stuff being retroactively made Realms products.
And then 3rd edition broke it off again, and included rules for 'traditional' D&D Oriental Adventures, or the Rokugan campaign setting (which AEG has done a terrific job with).
Well, that's not entirely accurate... Kara-Tur is still in the same place. The Oriental Adventures of 3E, though, are the Rokugan stuff. This is yet another case where they really should have come up with some other name. 
Actually, not all the 3e OA stuff was designed specifically for the Legend of the Five Rings setting. I recall James Wyatt discussing that back on the Wizards boards in '02.
|
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 21:27:07
Technically speaking, the Oriental Adventures book for 3E was campaign-neutral. It included a variety of options that would fit in Kara-Tur or Rokugan*. They published the book as a link to AEG's 3E product, who published the Rokugan Campaign Setting and all the other supplementals. WotC did the same thing for Ravenloft and DragonLance in 3E, allowing 3PP to focus on the setting while keeping the generics 'in-house'.
*The Rokugan-specifics in the book can be easily opted out since it was a few races and mostly lore. Everything else rang true for a Kara-Tur setting, IMHO. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 19:35:22
Well, yeah... but my point was that out of all of them, Al-Qadim seemed the most suited to stand-alone play, with Kara-Tur coming second, Maztica third, etc, etc...
But all of them were included in the 3e FRCS, which means they were still there - they just weren't given any detail at all. which is fine - I'd have preferred for them to come out with SEPERATE books updating each of those regions. Either way, though, they were certainly still officially part of the setting, even if they did get ignored in 3e.
The Rokugon thing still has me shaking my head - I can't even say it was an anti-Gygax move, since Greyhawk became prominent again in 3e and Gary was being 'welcomed back into the fold'. I think that was just some greedy bean-counter trying to cash-in on some other company's IP. I think the 3eOA book should have bene a LOT less setting-specific.
Water under the bridge, and all that...
Anyhow, since I just mentioned Gary Gygax, I have to bring this up (even if its not really in the right place). I was just now going through the 1999 25th anniversary issue of Dragon (which I always keep at-hand for the Speking in Tongues article), and I noticed Gary had projected forward a timeline of where he saw the game going...
2019
Plans for the much-needed 4th-edition game bear fruit. Now the game is not only multi-genre, but has multiple character creation systems that are compatible.
No wonder he 'blew a gasket' when it came out in 2008... 
There's also a sidebar about the flavor of the Realms by Ed... too bad NONE of the new team ever read it, obviously.
Anyway, I'd love to read this article, and I would REALLY love to get my grubby little hands on the map, but I just can't see signing up for a service I'm going to probably use less then 15% of.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 18:58:16
quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The other regions were ALL showcased as seperate 'sub-settings' of FR, and one - Zakhara - actually was designed to be used ANYWHERE - its history wasn't linked to FR at all, beyond a couple of small things (like foriegn gods), and I've seen more folks use it as a 'stand-alone' product then as an FR one.
All five sub-settings - Hordelands, Kara-Tur, Malatra (RPGA), Maztica, & Zakhara - were presented in a seperate line of products. Even in the 3e FRCS, they got only a mention. If people wanted to use these very different regions, they had the option to look into these other lines and expand their world.
Just as a point of reference, Kara-Tur was originally a stand-alone area, as well. The first few products, including the original 1E Oriental Adventures tome, didn't have any references to a larger world. It was only later that the OA stuff was bolted on to the Realms, with the earlier stuff being retroactively made Realms products.
And then 3rd edition broke it off again, and included rules for 'traditional' D&D Oriental Adventures, or the Rokugan campaign setting (which AEG has done a terrific job with).
Well, that's not entirely accurate... Kara-Tur is still in the same place. The Oriental Adventures of 3E, though, are the Rokugan stuff. This is yet another case where they really should have come up with some other name. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 18:33:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The other regions were ALL showcased as seperate 'sub-settings' of FR, and one - Zakhara - actually was designed to be used ANYWHERE - its history wasn't linked to FR at all, beyond a couple of small things (like foriegn gods), and I've seen more folks use it as a 'stand-alone' product then as an FR one.
All five sub-settings - Hordelands, Kara-Tur, Malatra (RPGA), Maztica, & Zakhara - were presented in a seperate line of products. Even in the 3e FRCS, they got only a mention. If people wanted to use these very different regions, they had the option to look into these other lines and expand their world.
Just as a point of reference, Kara-Tur was originally a stand-alone area, as well. The first few products, including the original 1E Oriental Adventures tome, didn't have any references to a larger world. It was only later that the OA stuff was bolted on to the Realms, with the earlier stuff being retroactively made Realms products.
And then 3rd edition broke it off again, and included rules for 'traditional' D&D Oriental Adventures, or the Rokugan campaign setting (which AEG has done a terrific job with). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 17:57:42
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The other regions were ALL showcased as seperate 'sub-settings' of FR, and one - Zakhara - actually was designed to be used ANYWHERE - its history wasn't linked to FR at all, beyond a couple of small things (like foriegn gods), and I've seen more folks use it as a 'stand-alone' product then as an FR one.
All five sub-settings - Hordelands, Kara-Tur, Malatra (RPGA), Maztica, & Zakhara - were presented in a seperate line of products. Even in the 3e FRCS, they got only a mention. If people wanted to use these very different regions, they had the option to look into these other lines and expand their world.
Just as a point of reference, Kara-Tur was originally a stand-alone area, as well. The first few products, including the original 1E Oriental Adventures tome, didn't have any references to a larger world. It was only later that the OA stuff was bolted on to the Realms, with the earlier stuff being retroactively made Realms products. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 17:36:22
quote:
Originally posted by gomez
I think returned Abeir would make a great separate campaign arc. I just don't know yet how it works together with Faerun, in the same way that Zakhara or Kara-Tur don't work that way (except on a distance, such as the Shou in Nathlan). <snip>
Exactly my point.
There is NOTHING wrong - it's just not really part of the Realms. It is supposed to be an improvement on the old region that was there, but here's the problem with that thinking -
The other regions were ALL showcased as seperate 'sub-settings' of FR, and one - Zakhara - actually was designed to be used ANYWHERE - its history wasn't linked to FR at all, beyond a couple of small things (like foriegn gods), and I've seen more folks use it as a 'stand-alone' product then as an FR one.
All five sub-settings - Hordelands, Kara-Tur, Malatra (RPGA), Maztica, & Zakhara - were presented in a seperate line of products. Even in the 3e FRCS, they got only a mention. If people wanted to use these very different regions, they had the option to look into these other lines and expand their world.
There was no option with returned Abeir - for the very first time, a landmass removed from Faerūn was giving a large amount of attention in the Campaign Guide. I can gaurantee 99.9% of the people who bought the 4e FRCG plan on running a campaign in Faerūn, making Laerakond useless to most of the folks buying the book.
I think Brimstone has the right of it - when they saw the humongous backlash from fans, they decided to include Ed on the project, but didn't want to give-up any of the regions THEY had already so-cleverly 're-imagined'...
So they stuck him off in a corner, like some naughty little child, who they wouldn't have to 'play with' at all, since his landmass doesn't even touch theirs. Its disgraceful...
Returned Abeir isn't there to be used; it's there so they can say "look, we included Ed... now buy the damn book already"
And the other thing is, it IS Ed writing it, which is a double-edged sword. Out of all those sub-settings I listed above, Returned Abeir is a far 'better fit', because it does sound like it belongs in the Realms, because Ed wrote.
But if it sounds just like the Realms, why bother going there at all? 
As badly thought-out as some of those other regions were, at least they offerred something different. Now you'd just be taking an long ocean voyage to visit a place just like you left.
I'm not knocking Ed here at all - I love everything he writes, BECAUSE of his flavor. Its just that I think another continent - that originated on another planet - shouldn't have the same flavor at all.
The REALLY bizarre thing is, returned Abeir sounds more like the Realms then the Realms do now! Perhaps that was its true purpose? Thats where all of us old-school fans are supposed to play now, and still enjoy 'pure Ed'.
If so, its a great idea... but then it should have gotten it's own sourcebook. I would buy an ED-only 4e setting, and probably even run it, but shoe-horning it into the FRCG just detracts from both. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 08:28:00
-Isnt the game table on hold right now? 
BRIMMY |
| gomez |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 08:09:17
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
So we have two 'pros' - one saying he doesn't think he'll bother to subscibe to the DDi, and another who says he doesn't use Returned Abeir. Interesting...
I don't use Returned Abeir (yet) because I am the Writing Director of the Dalelands, and don't have a lot of time to do anything else *but* the Dalelands (and a bit of Dragoncoast).
Though I expect I will do something with it eventually.
I think returned Abeir would make a great separate campaign arc. I just don't know yet how it works together with Faerun, in the same way that Zakhara or Kara-Tur don't work that way (except on a distance, such as the Shou in Nathlan).
That's why a few portals to Tarmalune (especially to the Dalelands) would be an asset (I asked Ed about it, though I expect it will be NDA).
But yes, Returned Abeir would best work as a separate setting. I think it should have received it's own set of books.
And thanks for finding the streets quote, scererar.
It still think it looks too open, but it may look better if we paint in the traffic :P
|
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 06:22:35
At first, I thought maybe they justed mistyped the year (2008 for 2009), but then I saw from the comments that the article is really a year old ... oh well. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 05:29:44
So, I was just looking at the D&D site and saw that they listed a 'new' article on the site today: 'DDi on BoingBoing'. It caught my attention because it talks about new screenshots for the Character Visualizer, Gaming Table and Dungeon Mapper.
I followed the link (here) and thought 'these look familiar'. Then I noticed that the BoingBoing article AND the DDi article date were for Feb 25th 2008. Nice. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 04:24:34
-I like Returned Abeir, but it seems like it was Wizards way of putting Ed all along in a corner, all by himself. Now if only they(WotC) will use it.
-I liked the article btw. 
BRIMMY |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 04:20:38
@Old Sage - I quite agree, and even feel Returned Abeir is 'wasted' in the FRCG - it could have been a perfectly good basis for a new setting, and gotten its own 190 page campaign guide for 4e.
There is nothing at all wrong with the place itself, and I'm sure if Ed created it, its just as good as any part of the Realms, and would make a welcome edition (and start) to a Homebrew world anyone out there is starting-up.
In fact, it's pretty much one of the rare few sections of the FRCG that didn't leave me horrified. 
I just wish it had received its own showcase, where it could have really shined. |
| scererar |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 02:42:19
quote:
Originally posted by gomez
I liked the map, but I wondered if the streets were drawn to wide -- it is probably just scale, but it makes the city look like a lot of open space witha a fe houses put on.
I was also wondering that. one of the first paragraphs of the article indicate that the streets are fairly wide.
"Its cobbled streets are broad (enough to turn a coach or cart without unhitching its team) but are choked with wagons, carts, and folk mounted and afoot by day, and only a little less crowded by night. There are no sidewalks, and streets (rather than having a central crown to shed water to side gutters)slope gently down from the flanking buildings to a slimy open drainage trough running down the center of the street". |
| Uzzy |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 01:02:47
So, having recently 'obtained' the article, I read through it. And it's perfectly adequate. The section where the resident described what her views were of Toril was quite nice, and something I'd have liked to have seen in other books.
But then again, it's a lore article written by Ed Greenwood. It was always going to be interesting. It's just a shame that it's set in nothing less then an abomination on a World of Synibarr level, rather then something cool, like the Forgotten Realms. Ah well. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 00:44:40
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
'Edlore' is great (and thank you for that term Rinon)...
You're welcome. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 23:17:05
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Like I said... I don't even know any 4e people using Returned Abeir - and yet we get an article on it (right after one about using Warforged in th Realms). Its like they are trying to force the fans to use certain things, which isn't the way it should work with RPGs.
Well, I am curious about Ed's work on the region. And I likely will use the concept of Returned Abeir in a future campaign. Though it won't be part of the Realms. I've got too much of my own established setting history that would need to be heavily altered if I were to bring Returned Abeir into my Realms. And I'm not willing to do that.
Instead, I'm actually intending on using Returned Abeir and Ed's work on the region as a basis for a new campaign setting, which I've been plotting for some time. It'll include some other homebrew material that I haven't had much opportunity to use elsewhere, along with other tidbits I've drawn from several published fantasy worlds.
As it is now, I actually like the concept of Ed's work. Just not in my Realms. There's a lot of little tidbits Ed's brought up about Returned Abeir that are just waiting to be explored in a campaign that's deliberately focused on the region. And given Ed's creativity, I think that's worth the effort.
|
| Alisttair |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 18:02:02
Tis' true that I don't currently plan on using Returned Abeir in my campaign...but I might give it a shot at some point, if they ever come out with more info about it....speaking of which, does anyone know if WotC has hired or is planning on hiring anyone to write any novels set in Abeir?? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 17:02:00
So we have two 'pros' - one saying he doesn't think he'll bother to subscibe to the DDi, and another who says he doesn't use Returned Abeir. Interesting...
Like I said... I don't even know any 4e people using Returned Abeir - and yet we get an article on it (right after one about using Warforged in th Realms). Its like they are trying to force the fans to use certain things, which isn't the way it should work with RPGs.
And now, before I get a second warning from our Hamster-at-large - that was the entire point of my last post, and relates to the topic: No matter how good an article is (and I'm sure this one is excellent), who's 'agenda' are these articles serving? Certainly not mine, nor anyone else I know playing in ANY edition.
Two 'Realmslore' articles in MONTHS, and neither one of them really had to do with the Realms at all, when you come right down to it. 
Anyway, this is also being discussed at WotC, and like usual, most people (including the 4e ones) are trying to figure out how to use Laerakond in their games. Since I'm sure this will be a series, and Ed is trying his hardest to make it work, and this is likely to be the ONLY official Ed-written Realmslore we are ever going to see anymore, I've done a mock-up of another possible placement for Returned Abeir in a 3e (or even 4e) game -
Alternate placement for Laerakond
I posted that at WotC yesterday, but I realize some of you don't go there, so I thought I'd put it here as well. Despite my constant negativity, I AM trying to make this work. |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 16:39:09
quote:
Originally posted by gomez
Gomez,
probably the only one on these boards who likes 4thed... (well, a significant enough part of it, anyway)
I like 4E. I play in two separate 4E campaigns currently (one is set in a DMs crested world, the other one we are running the published adventures set in Fallcrest et al., currently in Thunderspire Labyrinth).
I am currently planning to finally run my own campaign (I only DMed one session of 4E, butso far it seems lots easier)...it will of course be a realms campaign...so I can't say what 4E realms is like to play in yet. But definately, I enjoy D&D 4E (and I still enjoy 3.5E as well) |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 16:35:54
The fact that Wizards.com is blocked at my workplace is swaying me to not subscribe to DDI...oh such a difficult decision. |
| gomez |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 07:55:37
I liked the map, but I wondered if the streets were drawn to wide -- it is probably just scale, but it makes the city look like a lot of open space witha a fe houses put on.
I didn't read through everything yet. The douse wizard (or whatever it was called) was a cool idea. I may use that idea elsewhere.
Returned Abeir is not (yet) something I use myself. It sort of feels like a seperate setting, and maybe it should have been treated as such (as an expansion to the Realms, rather than 'part of' the Realms). It is as connected to Faerun as Zakhara or Kara-Tur. You can use it, but it is a bloody long trip to get there...
Still, I can see a connection between Waterdeep and Tarmalune. And who knows, there could be a few portals in the Fall of Stars that connect to a tavern in the city... have to read the article better to see if there are any hints.
Gomez,
probably the only one on these boards who likes 4thed... (well, a significant enough part of it, anyway)
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 18:50:35
Folks, we are really drifting from the topic, here... Let's bring it back to DDI and this article by Ed, please. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 18:13:54
Not to harp (okay... maybe just a little...)
I'm starting to feel like the obstinant child holding his mouth tightly shut, while his Mom is trying force-feed him nasty peas.
I never liked peas, I never ate peas as a child, and even when my wife (rarely) made them, I would make faces at my kids and stick my finger down my throat and make gagging noises.
yes... I am still a child (haven't you figure that out yet? )
Anyway, the point is, when we don't want to 'eat' something, stop trying to force it down our throats. Its like they are completely incapable of doing anything but what THEY want. Most companies learn from their mistakes and move on - WotC embraces them.  |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 18:04:57
I refrained from saying anything, given my hostility towards anything 4e, but I have to join the choir of those saying that the article is useless to me. Bugger it is, as well, because if Wizards were smart they would intentionally add pre-Smellplague Realmslore to Dragon just to haul in more fishes. Then again, if it was just about making a buck, Wizards could have done a revision of all the Realms-supplements from 1st and 2nd edition with only a slight, time-relevant, change, add a few PrCs and be done with it.
No, wait, they are about making a buck... but are they going about it a sensible way...frak no!
I regret saying this...again... but their Realms are dead, and Ed's probably doing what he can to keep it alive, but to me the official Realms are no more...
/gets too much into RANT-mode and shuffles off |
| Markustay |
Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 16:09:54
Right, its an attempt to give us Realmslore (as promised, BTW), but not what most fans want, or what most fans - including 4e ones - will ever use.
'Edlore' is great (and thank you for that term Rinon), and can be used anywhere - I just need to break-out my trusty, magical Shoehorn of the Gamemaster. Ergo, if I were using 4e rules (and subscribing to the then-useful DDi), I would take his lore and place it somewhere where my PCs might actualy run into it.
As of right now, I know of NO ONE 3e or 4e, using Returned Abeir. Even the pro-4e people are like "what am I supposed to do with that? I'm running the Realms now..."
The truth is, it's even less useful then the original Maztica - at least Maztica was different enough from Faerūn to make the trip worthwhile, but this is like me (an American) taking a trip to canada.
I've been there... and I couldn't tell... |
| arry |
Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 12:11:04
This seems to me to be an attempt by WotC to give us what we want (more stuff by Ed.), while keeping to their stated policy (no pre-Spellplague material). Unfortunately, as post-Spellplague stuff is useless to me, I shan't be buying. |
| Ashe Ravenheart |
Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 02:17:21
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
I wish there was a way to share this article without any copy right type issues, because it really is good content.
Arrgh, because piracy is just wrong!
Ninja, however...  |
| scererar |
Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 02:14:48
well, dang, I was not trying to start a negative type thread I thought this one would be more positive.
Well, the article is excellent, even if on Returned Abeir, which many here do not include in their realms. I truly understand many of your points of why you would not want a subscription. I wish there was a way to share this article without any copy right type issues, because it really is good content. I hope WOTC ramps up this type of article and gives us more realms lore. If so, I think many of you would at least consider checking it out. |
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