| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 02 Nov 2020 : 04:21:42
That is the proposed name of the Iriaebor book I am looking to put out. I checked the submission rules for DM's Guild and they only take stuff for 5e. I am writing this under 2e rules so that would not be accepted.
So, given that fact, I can scrub it of any references to 2e rules (making it edition agnostic) but hopefully still leave it ending at 1372. Would that still be useful or would it need to go all the way to 1490? I know that many of you use varying rulesets in different time periods and the timeline should allow you to adjust what is given for your game for a pre-1372 period.
Here is the table of contents to give you an idea of what will be in it. If I scrub for 2e rules, the Magic of Iriaebor section would be gone along with edits here and there. I don't foresee any changes other than a business with a cursed brewmaster (still working that out) but it ain't done until it is done so there may be more.
Contents
Introduction
Iriaebor: An Overview
Districts
The Old City
Landmarks
High Tower of Iriaebor
The Golden Bowl of the Goddess
_Festivals
The Guardian Wizards Guild
The High Altar of the Moon
_Festivals
Iriaebor Opera House
Silent Hall
_Festivals
Places of Interest in the Old City
Inns
The Black Boar
The Sign of the Dreaming Dragon
The Wandering Wyvern
Shops
Aurora’s Emporium
Cecil’s Fine Gems and Jewelry
Give Me Wings to Fly
The Well-Dressed Wizard
The Lower City
Landmarks
Blacktalon Citadel
The Dragoneye Warehouse and Yards
Iriaebor City Stables
The Market
Thousandheads Iriaebor Station
Places of Interest in The Lower City
Inns
Seller’s Rest
The Snoring Giant
Shops
Lakkon’s Fine Breads
Stonehammer Arms and Armor
Tarmin Wagons and Wheels
The Docks
Landmarks
The Docks of Iriaebor
Hall of the Arcane
_Festivals
Six Coffers Hold
The Tower of Gold
_Festivals
Places of Interest in the Docks
Inns
The Bottomed Barge
The Hammer and Chisel
Shops
Barskan’s Kegs and Barrels
Gigland Barge Works
Hinkerhand’s Hoys
Sabretan’s Tuns
Trade Road Wagons
The Knoll
Landmarks
Memorial Park
The Shield’s Rest
Near Iriaebor
Landmarks
Dortanthor’s Landing
Iriaebor’s Cemetery
The Lord’s Weirs
The Upper Chionthar Rapids
Places of Interest Near Iriaebor
Inns
The Old Talking Ox
Appendix I: Timeline of Iriaebor
Appendix II: The Illustrious and Infamous of Iriaebor
Appendix III: Organizations in Iriaebor
The Government
The Broken Daggers Thieves’ Guild
The Guardian Wizards Guild
The Harpers
The Moonstars
The Zhentarim
The Night Parade
The Men of the Basilisk
Knights of the Shield
Appendix IV: The Magic of Iriaebor
Magic Items
Spells
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 10 Jan 2022 : 21:26:52
I would like to apologize to anyone waiting for this to come out. November of last year, I hit burn out pretty bad and just stopped working on it. I am finally ready to start working on this again and actually get it out. By way of saying I am sorry, here is what I have for the bread exports mentioned by Ed in the 2e FRA (I haven't decided if this will last into the 5e timeline but I think it likely given the events of the Spellplague):
Lakkon’s Fine Breads
Bakery
Teurnik Lakkon is very likely the largest exporter of a locally produced product in Iriaebor. His preserved breads (both regular and sweetened varieties) are shipped to inns and trader’s shops from Waterdeep to Westgate. Even high-end places like The Black Boar are known to offer Lakkon’s Preserved Breads as part of their menus.
Teurnik’s success is due to his father’s efforts. Pacif Lakkon had a steady local bakery business even before he figured out a means to preserve bread. The merchants of the Tor would commonly buy his breads, tarts, and cakes for their parties. Even the near destitute were seen at the shop, buying one of his Two Coppers Loafs (they are actually several different varieties of peasant bread that even to this day only costs 2cp for a whole loaf).
Then, about 30 years ago, Pacif struck upon a non-magical means of preserving bread for long periods of time. It starts with a specific recipe that lends itself to the preservation process. Immediately after the bread has cooled down from being baked, it is sliced, and then dehydrated. Finally, it is packaged for shipping and storage by being wrapped in linen cloth, coated in wax, and then sealed in barrels. The process produces slices of bread that can be served “crunchy” (usually with some kind of sauce or gravy poured over it to make it soft again) or it can be steamed to make it soft once again. Some travelers even have taken to carrying the sweetened version and just eating it in its crunchy, cookie-like state as a quick snack while on the move.
Within ten years of creating his preserved bread, he had to find to a much larger building to be able to keep up with demand. It was then that he moved to his current location: a large, “backwards C-shaped” building about halfway between the The Knoll and the The Marketplace on the Trader’s Road. It took almost three full years for the property to be completely redone to meet Pacif’s needs. The end result is a four-story building with the entire first floor dedicated to the production of his preserved breads (except for two relatively small shops: one for the affluent and one for everyone else), a second floor dedicated to the production of his locally consumed artisan breads, tarts, cakes, and handpies, and the remaining two floors as living space for Teurnik’s family and all the workers for the bakery.
After Pacif passed way, Teurnik took over and he was able to even increase the bread exports beyond what his father had. His other products have remained popular with the residents of Iriaebor. He was even recently able to introduce a new product: Crispy Fried Handpies. They have become very popular because of the variety they are offered in using meats, vegetables, nuts, and fruits of all kinds (singly or in combination).
The shops are open daily from sunrise to sunset. Fresh items won’t be available until midmorning so anything in the shops before then will be from the previous day. These items are sold at half price (even the Two Coppers Loafs). Otherwise, prices run from the previously mentioned 2cp for a Two Coppers Loaf, 5cp to 1sp for handpies or tarts, and 1sp and up for breads or cakes. Custom baked goods can be ordered for pick up the next day (for most quantities). Of course, custom items are substantially more expensive.
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| Kelcimer |
Posted - 18 Sep 2021 : 07:20:09
Hello TheIriaeban!
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban Iriaebor used to be a violent place. So to keep that down, about 3,000 of the 8,000 are kept within the city at all times. That leaves 5,000 to do the actual patrolling. Each patrol is about 10 men so that would be 500 patrols. But, you also have to take into account days of rest, required training (all members of the Shield are required to be fully trained in both mounted and foot combat), rotation (so that all troops are familiar with city and plains combat), that cuts into that considerably (let's be generous and say that gives us 450 patrols). Oh, we have specific facilities outside the city that need to be guarded. That would knock it down again to say 200 to 300 patrols. So, we have 200 to 300 patrols to cover about 7,700 square miles (with the emphasis on guarding the trade road and river since that is the city's lifeblood).
I think that is enough to do the job. Remember calvary is fast, caravans are slow, and there would be only so many roads. |
| Kelcimer |
Posted - 18 Sep 2021 : 07:13:43
Hello Exodite!
quote:
Originally posted by Exodite
I could see trade caravans taking overland routes (instead of those coming by barge) being stopped by patrols for a toll charged by the wagon/oxen, obviously at a higher rate than those that go through the city
Exactly. That would be the first thing some mid-wit ruler would do. They would run into some problems and then other people would refine the system.
One of the counters is that caravans could simply "go around" Iriaebor. This overlooks the fact that land is not naturally made for wagons to cross, especially wagons loaded down with goods. Roads are a thing. Especially when you have a wagon train. How many roads "go around" Iriaebor? It wouldn't be hard to have castles at a strategic small villages along those roads, from which they could issue patrols in the area to the east and west looking for caravans.
And if a patrol sees a caravan? "Hey, you want to go that way to get to the toll. No, worries! We are happy to escort you so that you are better protected from random threats! Honestly! Has nothing to do with making sure you get to the toll!"
How many tolls would you need stretched out to the north and south of Iriaebor? I dunno. But enough that going even farther to the North or South to avoid them would be not worth it.
Could people circumvent this? Sure. If they were not on a wagon, then they could get through no problem. If they put all their goods in a bag of holding or similar extra-dimensional space, they again, they could get through no problem. I'm not suggesting there aren't ways for people to get around, especially if they have hot items that they need to keep on the DL. What this would do, though, is cast a net that would catch most wagon trains.
I don't think they even need to be taxed at a higher rate. Just a little natural corruption would suffice.
"Oh hey, yeah, the guy who is supposed to sign your slip had to visit his sick mother. I'll have to hold you here until he gets back. Might be an hour."
"Are you kidding me? We have a storm coming and I need to make time!"
"Well maybe if some people donated to his mother's get well fund, she'd be better, and he could be here."
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| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 15 Sep 2021 : 21:44:31
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
2e Waterdeep: City of Splendors, Book IV page 12, it has this:
"Bringing this to the elder lord, Hemmerem was given money to keep this news quiet (and young Piiradost was sent to live with lesser relatives in Iriaebor)."
Edit: Oh, my understanding is that for domesticated horses, it would be Chauntea since her portfolio includes Agriculture (which includes the raising of domesticated animals for food and other uses).
Well, was more thinking of the part of awakening the horses (i.e. Lurue is goddess of talking beasts).... I was just thinking about bringing a horse up to the auction block and it starts talking about itself. As with many things, it was a stray thought in the many I have.
Picture it:
Pompous noble stands up and puts in a bid of 600 gold like its an amazing amount
Horse says, "Oh, is that all you can afford? I guess that's about right given those clothes your wearing."
Bidding war starts just to prove just who is the most "noble" in the crowd.... and the first noble doesn't want to stop lest he lose face. His fellows egg it on, knowing when to stop, just to push the price up.
Luruar priestess rescues the horse from the noble after its bought
Ah, yes, the Mr. Ed spell.  |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Sep 2021 : 20:53:18
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
2e Waterdeep: City of Splendors, Book IV page 12, it has this:
"Bringing this to the elder lord, Hemmerem was given money to keep this news quiet (and young Piiradost was sent to live with lesser relatives in Iriaebor)."
Edit: Oh, my understanding is that for domesticated horses, it would be Chauntea since her portfolio includes Agriculture (which includes the raising of domesticated animals for food and other uses).
Well, was more thinking of the part of awakening the horses (i.e. Lurue is goddess of talking beasts).... I was just thinking about bringing a horse up to the auction block and it starts talking about itself. As with many things, it was a stray thought in the many I have.
Picture it:
Pompous noble stands up and puts in a bid of 600 gold like its an amazing amount
Horse says, "Oh, is that all you can afford? I guess that's about right given those clothes your wearing."
Bidding war starts just to prove just who is the most "noble" in the crowd.... and the first noble doesn't want to stop lest he lose face. His fellows egg it on, knowing when to stop, just to push the price up.
Luruar priestess rescues the horse from the noble after its bought |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 15 Sep 2021 : 20:44:42
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Proskur is a cesspool that is 140 miles away from Iriaebor. Since Cormyr is the one that maintains the roads between Cormyr and Proskur, that town is Cormyr's problem (and probably why it was eventually annexed by Cormyr).
...and this makes it the problem of anyone wary of Cormyr's expansion.
You mean like the fact that Pros, Illipur, Teziir, and Elversult also ends up becoming part of Cormyr (as either a vassal or a protectorate). |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 15 Sep 2021 : 20:12:39
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Proskur is a cesspool that is 140 miles away from Iriaebor. Since Cormyr is the one that maintains the roads between Cormyr and Proskur, that town is Cormyr's problem (and probably why it was eventually annexed by Cormyr).
...and this makes it the problem of anyone wary of Cormyr's expansion. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 15 Sep 2021 : 19:04:21
2e Waterdeep: City of Splendors, Book IV page 12, it has this:
"Bringing this to the elder lord, Hemmerem was given money to keep this news quiet (and young Piiradost was sent to live with lesser relatives in Iriaebor)."
Edit: Oh, my understanding is that for domesticated horses, it would be Chauntea since her portfolio includes Agriculture (which includes the raising of domesticated animals for food and other uses). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Sep 2021 : 17:11:07
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
These are NOT your average warhorse. The area is known for its fine mounts and draft animals (that is in FRA, too). For the breed used by Iriaebor, think of something kind of like a cross of a Sosser and Semphari but has been bred for the plains of Sunset Vale, Greenfields, and the Dragon Coast. The breed's base was the herds of horses that were found in the area whose origins were entwined with the Horsemen of Ur (they lived in the area long ago). Each of these animals could easily go for 1200gp if not more since they are closer in quality to a paladin's mount than the average war horse.
Oh, even better. I didn't realize these were treasured horses like those sold by the Nars, etc.... I wonder if any of Waterdeep's noble families that are into horse trading can be linked with Iriaebor (like the Roaringhorn family that is also in Baldur's Gate and Cormyr).
It is canon that the Piiradosts are in Iriaebor so there may be more. The actual reference says that they are a "lesser branch of the family". I am taking that as snobbery towards the nobility of Iriaebor since it is the Golden Table that votes to ennoble a family and most of those votes involve almost open bribery. The nobles in Cormyr would have the same attitude.
Oh, where's that at? You've definitely done your research. Thinking with all the horses, it would be fun to have a shrine to Lurue in the city who awakens horses. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 15 Sep 2021 : 14:17:25
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
These are NOT your average warhorse. The area is known for its fine mounts and draft animals (that is in FRA, too). For the breed used by Iriaebor, think of something kind of like a cross of a Sosser and Semphari but has been bred for the plains of Sunset Vale, Greenfields, and the Dragon Coast. The breed's base was the herds of horses that were found in the area whose origins were entwined with the Horsemen of Ur (they lived in the area long ago). Each of these animals could easily go for 1200gp if not more since they are closer in quality to a paladin's mount than the average war horse.
Oh, even better. I didn't realize these were treasured horses like those sold by the Nars, etc.... I wonder if any of Waterdeep's noble families that are into horse trading can be linked with Iriaebor (like the Roaringhorn family that is also in Baldur's Gate and Cormyr).
It is canon that the Piiradosts are in Iriaebor so there may be more. The actual reference says that they are a "lesser branch of the family". I am taking that as snobbery towards the nobility of Iriaebor since it is the Golden Table that votes to ennoble a family and most of those votes involve almost open bribery. The nobles in Cormyr would have the same attitude. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Sep 2021 : 12:56:53
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
These are NOT your average warhorse. The area is known for its fine mounts and draft animals (that is in FRA, too). For the breed used by Iriaebor, think of something kind of like a cross of a Sosser and Semphari but has been bred for the plains of Sunset Vale, Greenfields, and the Dragon Coast. The breed's base was the herds of horses that were found in the area whose origins were entwined with the Horsemen of Ur (they lived in the area long ago). Each of these animals could easily go for 1200gp if not more since they are closer in quality to a paladin's mount than the average war horse.
Oh, even better. I didn't realize these were treasured horses like those sold by the Nars, etc.... I wonder if any of Waterdeep's noble families that are into horse trading can be linked with Iriaebor (like the Roaringhorn family that is also in Baldur's Gate and Cormyr). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 15 Sep 2021 : 12:42:59
quote:
Originally posted by Exodite
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They could simply go around the city, but stay within its patrolled territory. Taxes are usually only charged entering/leaving a city, so if Iriaebor wasn't their end destination, and the merchant wants to save money and has adequate supplies, there's no reason to stop. Staying within the patrolled territory, the city could be easily and safely bypassed.
Hence, it is not a chokepoint.
Do you think that the rulers of Iriaebor throughout its history have been uniformly dumb and hapless? Or do you accept that there have been at least some moderately intelligent (at least) bastards ruling the city over the course of its thousand year history? Being a ruler has a way of bringing out the bastard in people, so I really hope it is the latter.
So what, they tax every single caravan they see, regardless of where it is in their territory? Or are you saying they've walled their entire territory and even further beyond, so it's impossible to bypass it? Don't be ridiculous.
I could see trade caravans taking overland routes (instead of those coming by barge) being stopped by patrols for a toll charged by the wagon/oxen, obviously at a higher rate than those that go through the city - if those are charged at all. Especially coasters that don't have holdings within the city itself, which may have agreements with city leadership to bypass or lower the fees. If this is the case, caravan masters finding barges that will pick them up just outside of Iriaebor's domain at a more modest fee than the city patrol would charge seems likely. Licit and illicit business dealings revolving around such tolls and trade deals given the location and influence of the city would have to be occuring.
And then when brigands start dressing up as patrolmen whenever they see a caravan on the horizon and roaming the countryside looking to "tax" people.... who think its legitimate and pay them because its the practice... and then they meet a real patrol and are expected to pay again and don't believe them and it causes a ruckus.
Now the city's reputation is on the line and they MUST find these brigands or suffer bad press. Furthermore, taxation is now haphazard, and people will seek to skirt patrols. Then there will also be patrols that only REPORT having met up with half their caravans OR charge some extra fee that's not on the books.
In other words, this practice invites banditry, discourages caravans interacting with patrols, stealing by patrolmen, and creates an air of distrust of the forces in the region. The pittance you're gaining isn't worth the bad press for your city. Honest trade and benefits gained for going to a city should win the day, or your city will suffer. Corruption is not the way to build a city. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 15 Sep 2021 : 05:37:47
quote:
Originally posted by Exodite
I could see trade caravans taking overland routes (instead of those coming by barge) being stopped by patrols for a toll charged by the wagon/oxen, obviously at a higher rate than those that go through the city - if those are charged at all. Especially coasters that don't have holdings within the city itself, which may have agreements with city leadership to bypass or lower the fees. If this is the case, caravan masters finding barges that will pick them up just outside of Iriaebor's domain at a more modest fee than the city patrol would charge seems likely. Licit and illicit business dealings revolving around such tolls and trade deals given the location and influence of the city would have to be occuring.
I don't see it, unless it happens at some sort of physical chokepoint like a bridge or ferry, or some sort of other difficult to bypass terrain feature.
There are three reasons I don't see it.
One is that depending on the route, a caravan could be stopped by multiple patrols -- and if they're getting taxed multiple times while passing a specific area, they're going to avoid that area in the future.
The second is that you're empowering armed men, operating independently and far from supervision, to collect these taxes, and you're expecting them to be honest, not overcharge, and to not keep these bags of gold they'll be traveling with. Not only that, but in additional to standard soldier's training, they'd have to be trained at recognizing various goods and their worth, unless you're charging a flat X gold per wagon fee.
The third is that when entering a city, a merchant is going to expect certain things: a chance to find quarters and supplies, perhaps a chance to recruit more people, a chance for trade, and relative safety while doing all that. These are things that make the taxation worth the expense. If you're bypassing a city, all you're getting from patrols is an assurance of relative safety -- and you've already got your own guards for that, most likely. Merchants asked forced to pay for goods and services they're not receiving are not going to be return customers. |
| Exodite |
Posted - 15 Sep 2021 : 01:55:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They could simply go around the city, but stay within its patrolled territory. Taxes are usually only charged entering/leaving a city, so if Iriaebor wasn't their end destination, and the merchant wants to save money and has adequate supplies, there's no reason to stop. Staying within the patrolled territory, the city could be easily and safely bypassed.
Hence, it is not a chokepoint.
Do you think that the rulers of Iriaebor throughout its history have been uniformly dumb and hapless? Or do you accept that there have been at least some moderately intelligent (at least) bastards ruling the city over the course of its thousand year history? Being a ruler has a way of bringing out the bastard in people, so I really hope it is the latter.
So what, they tax every single caravan they see, regardless of where it is in their territory? Or are you saying they've walled their entire territory and even further beyond, so it's impossible to bypass it? Don't be ridiculous.
I could see trade caravans taking overland routes (instead of those coming by barge) being stopped by patrols for a toll charged by the wagon/oxen, obviously at a higher rate than those that go through the city - if those are charged at all. Especially coasters that don't have holdings within the city itself, which may have agreements with city leadership to bypass or lower the fees. If this is the case, caravan masters finding barges that will pick them up just outside of Iriaebor's domain at a more modest fee than the city patrol would charge seems likely. Licit and illicit business dealings revolving around such tolls and trade deals given the location and influence of the city would have to be occuring. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 14 Sep 2021 : 22:57:12
These are NOT your average warhorse. The area is known for its fine mounts and draft animals (that is in FRA, too). For the breed used by Iriaebor, think of something kind of like a cross of a Sosser and Semphari but has been bred for the plains of Sunset Vale, Greenfields, and the Dragon Coast. The breed's base was the herds of horses that were found in the area whose origins were entwined with the Horsemen of Ur (they lived in the area long ago). Each of these animals could easily go for 1200gp if not more since they are closer in quality to a paladin's mount than the average war horse. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Sep 2021 : 22:02:57
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Ed addressed Iriaebor taxes in FRA where he has:
"These huge stables of trained war mounts are used for breeding. Periodically some are sold off, providing the city with much wealth, so Bron taxes only lightly."
Iriaebor taxes are low enough that a vast majority of merchants will go through the city. Sure, there may be a few that will not do that but then they will also have to deal with a higher chance of being attacked since they will be off the heavily patrolled major trade routes.
Hmm, that's kind of interesting. I wonder what the average useful time is for a warhorse (my google-fu says it takes 4 or 5 years to train one, and they can live to 30, but I'd bet few last past age 10 or 15 before having to be used for less aggressive duty). I know that was written for 2e, but just to use 5e info... warhorse 400 gold... figure half that is cost of raising them in general, including paying trainers. So, 200 gold... and if they sold a thousand a year... not bad. Profit margin may not be THAT good (they may only make 50 gold on each for all I'd know), but still.. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 14 Sep 2021 : 19:01:08
Ed addressed Iriaebor taxes in FRA where he has:
"These huge stables of trained war mounts are used for breeding. Periodically some are sold off, providing the city with much wealth, so Bron taxes only lightly."
Iriaebor taxes are low enough that a vast majority of merchants will go through the city. Sure, there may be a few that will not do that but then they will also have to deal with a higher chance of being attacked since they will be off the heavily patrolled major trade routes. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 14 Sep 2021 : 17:03:19
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They could simply go around the city, but stay within its patrolled territory. Taxes are usually only charged entering/leaving a city, so if Iriaebor wasn't their end destination, and the merchant wants to save money and has adequate supplies, there's no reason to stop. Staying within the patrolled territory, the city could be easily and safely bypassed.
Hence, it is not a chokepoint.
Do you think that the rulers of Iriaebor throughout its history have been uniformly dumb and hapless? Or do you accept that there have been at least some moderately intelligent (at least) bastards ruling the city over the course of its thousand year history? Being a ruler has a way of bringing out the bastard in people, so I really hope it is the latter.
Bastards doesn't mean absolute power. Wooly is right. Unless there is some driving reason that some ruler is going to be able to micromanage a vast swathe of territory, things will slip through the cracks. Traders are smart too, and soldiers are disloyal. Nor can most rulers actually do that much micromanagement. Sure, they can tax folks, but they also need to not be so much of an arse about it that people don't like the city. Being hospitable and keeping the taxes lower makes trade amicable. Pissing off caravan masters is not the method to grow your city. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Sep 2021 : 15:40:44
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They could simply go around the city, but stay within its patrolled territory. Taxes are usually only charged entering/leaving a city, so if Iriaebor wasn't their end destination, and the merchant wants to save money and has adequate supplies, there's no reason to stop. Staying within the patrolled territory, the city could be easily and safely bypassed.
Hence, it is not a chokepoint.
Do you think that the rulers of Iriaebor throughout its history have been uniformly dumb and hapless? Or do you accept that there have been at least some moderately intelligent (at least) bastards ruling the city over the course of its thousand year history? Being a ruler has a way of bringing out the bastard in people, so I really hope it is the latter.
So what, they tax every single caravan they see, regardless of where it is in their territory? Or are you saying they've walled their entire territory and even further beyond, so it's impossible to bypass it? Don't be ridiculous. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 14 Sep 2021 : 15:15:49
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They could simply go around the city, but stay within its patrolled territory. Taxes are usually only charged entering/leaving a city, so if Iriaebor wasn't their end destination, and the merchant wants to save money and has adequate supplies, there's no reason to stop. Staying within the patrolled territory, the city could be easily and safely bypassed.
Hence, it is not a chokepoint.
Do you think that the rulers of Iriaebor throughout its history have been uniformly dumb and hapless? Or do you accept that there have been at least some moderately intelligent (at least) bastards ruling the city over the course of its thousand year history? Being a ruler has a way of bringing out the bastard in people, so I really hope it is the latter.
Ed has said this about the Chionthar:
"By contrast, the Chionthar is like a shipping channel for much of its length: eighty feet or more wide, thirty feet or more deep, slow-moving in its lower stretch (below the confluence), silty (so one can never see through the waters), and serving as the sewer of the cities along it."
The river is definitely barrier. There are no fordings west of Iriaebor and the next bridge would be the one at Berdusk. There may be a ferry here or there but they aren't very big and it would take a long time to get a caravan across.
Also, people WANT to get north of the Chionthar as quickly as possible. Balagos feels that his territory ends at the Chionthar (north fork) so once a caravan is on the other side of the river, they are safe from him. That also explains why Iriaebor isn't subject to his depredations. (The Chionthar being the border of his territory was very likely a deal he made with Varalla. He doesn't go north of the river and she and her pet black great wyrm doesn't decide to make trouble for him.) |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 14 Sep 2021 : 14:39:30
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
TheIriaeban,
What is the population of Iriaebor in the time period that you are working with?
The population of Iriaebor has been all over the place in canon sources. It has been as high as 81k to a low of 16k. In the FRA, it was the second largest city on the Chionthar (after Baldur's Gate). So, what I did was take the 3e numbers and made Iriaebor the second largest based on that. That gave Iriaebor a population of 40k. Since the other cities seemed to include their forces as part of that number, that makes it 32k residents and 8k military forces.
This is around 1371. It used to be a bit higher but there was a population loss due to the Zhentarim Interregnum in 1363. Around the same time, there was the Far Hills Iron Rush where a bunch of people moved to Asbravn. Otherwise, it would have been larger than 40k in 1371. |
| Kelcimer |
Posted - 14 Sep 2021 : 13:30:24
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
They could simply go around the city, but stay within its patrolled territory. Taxes are usually only charged entering/leaving a city, so if Iriaebor wasn't their end destination, and the merchant wants to save money and has adequate supplies, there's no reason to stop. Staying within the patrolled territory, the city could be easily and safely bypassed.
Hence, it is not a chokepoint.
Do you think that the rulers of Iriaebor throughout its history have been uniformly dumb and hapless? Or do you accept that there have been at least some moderately intelligent (at least) bastards ruling the city over the course of its thousand year history? Being a ruler has a way of bringing out the bastard in people, so I really hope it is the latter.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 14 Sep 2021 : 12:34:19
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not so much of a chokepoint. Sure, there's a river, but other than that, it's flat open ground all around -- easy to bypass.
Yes, armies can go around and approach from any direction. I'm not talking about that.
I said, "Entire kingdoms have been built upon such choke points for trade.
Merchants don't have an incentive to want their goods to stay on wagons between the Dragonmere and the Chionthar any more than they absolutely have to. From the west that means moving goods to the farthest navigable spot on the Chionthar as possible. From the east that means getting to the closest navigable spot on the Chionthar as possible. That's Iriaebor.
Everything is a tradeoff. If merchants want to go around Iriaebor, then that means adding additional days to their journey. Unless they have a very good incentive to do so, they won't want to incur the additional time and cost to their journey.
And since this is a fantasy world, the costs for merchants to bypass Iriaebor potentially include monsters and things. So yes, it is a choke point for trade.
Is it the strongest choke point? No. It's not an actual strait.
They could simply go around the city, but stay within its patrolled territory. Taxes are usually only charged entering/leaving a city, so if Iriaebor wasn't their end destination, and the merchant wants to save money and has adequate supplies, there's no reason to stop. Staying within the patrolled territory, the city could be easily and safely bypassed.
Hence, it is not a chokepoint. |
| Kelcimer |
Posted - 14 Sep 2021 : 05:43:52
TheIriaeban,
What is the population of Iriaebor in the time period that you are working with? |
| Kelcimer |
Posted - 14 Sep 2021 : 05:39:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Not so much of a chokepoint. Sure, there's a river, but other than that, it's flat open ground all around -- easy to bypass.
Yes, armies can go around and approach from any direction. I'm not talking about that.
I said, "Entire kingdoms have been built upon such choke points for trade.
Merchants don't have an incentive to want their goods to stay on wagons between the Dragonmere and the Chionthar any more than they absolutely have to. From the west that means moving goods to the farthest navigable spot on the Chionthar as possible. From the east that means getting to the closest navigable spot on the Chionthar as possible. That's Iriaebor.
Everything is a tradeoff. If merchants want to go around Iriaebor, then that means adding additional days to their journey. Unless they have a very good incentive to do so, they won't want to incur the additional time and cost to their journey.
And since this is a fantasy world, the costs for merchants to bypass Iriaebor potentially include monsters and things. So yes, it is a choke point for trade.
Is it the strongest choke point? No. It's not an actual strait. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 13 Sep 2021 : 15:55:21
quote:
Originally posted by Kelcimer
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban Given the sizes of the forces in the area, they can be stretched a bit thin at that 2 day's ride but unless you tax the snot out of people, you can only afford so many troops. That is why merchants in the area still employ guards for their caravans.
I dunno as that they have to be thin as all that. 8,000 is basically two Roman Legions. You had entire Roman provinces, larger than the territory for Iriaebor that I suggest, that could be held down by two legions. (Granted, that Iriaebor's 8,000 would not be organized as a Roman Legion. Iriaebor would want the majority of its army to be calvary that could be deployed fast to where they were needed.)
But lets say that you are correct and 8,000 would be stretched thin. Iriaebor is supposed to be a really happening trade city. Trade. Lots of goods moving. Anybody that wants to go from the Dragonmere to the Chionthar or vis versa has to go through Iriaebor's territory. Through what is essentially a strait. Entire kingdoms have been built upon such choke points for trade. And they can't find a way to collect enough fees on goods moving through so as to secure their portion of the trade route? They don't have to be the most competent rulers in the world to do that.
Or is the lore that Iriaebor and its trade route are very recently established, being carved out of the frontier in the past hundred years? I could better buy it then.
Iriaebor has been around for a long time. The first canon reference to it that I could find was that El's nephew was there in the 200's. It was founded there because that is the furthest up the Chionthar you can get a barge (moving goods on water is a lot easier and slightly safer than doing it overland).
Iriaebor used to be a violent place. So to keep that down, about 3,000 of the 8,000 are kept within the city at all times. That leaves 5,000 to do the actual patrolling. Each patrol is about 10 men so that would be 500 patrols. But, you also have to take into account days of rest, required training (all members of the Shield are required to be fully trained in both mounted and foot combat), rotation (so that all troops are familiar with city and plains combat), that cuts into that considerably (let's be generous and say that gives us 450 patrols). Oh, we have specific facilities outside the city that need to be guarded. That would knock it down again to say 200 to 300 patrols. So, we have 200 to 300 patrols to cover about 7,700 square miles (with the emphasis on guarding the trade road and river since that is the city's lifeblood).
The actual breakdown of Iriaebor's field forces is:
1 Lord Patrol Commander
5 Shieldmaster
5 Protector
15 Defender
45 Guardian
135 First Shield
405 Patrol Shield
4050 Patrol Targ
4661 Total Patrol
466 Reserves
5127 Total Shield Stationed Outside of Iriaebor
Edit: Fixed the date for El's nephew. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Sep 2021 : 12:10:37
Not so much of a chokepoint. Sure, there's a river, but other than that, it's flat open ground all around -- easy to bypass. |
| Kelcimer |
Posted - 13 Sep 2021 : 09:06:33
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban Given the sizes of the forces in the area, they can be stretched a bit thin at that 2 day's ride but unless you tax the snot out of people, you can only afford so many troops. That is why merchants in the area still employ guards for their caravans.
I dunno as that they have to be thin as all that. 8,000 is basically two Roman Legions. You had entire Roman provinces, larger than the territory for Iriaebor that I suggest, that could be held down by two legions. (Granted, that Iriaebor's 8,000 would not be organized as a Roman Legion. Iriaebor would want the majority of its army to be calvary that could be deployed fast to where they were needed.)
But lets say that you are correct and 8,000 would be stretched thin. Iriaebor is supposed to be a really happening trade city. Trade. Lots of goods moving. Anybody that wants to go from the Dragonmere to the Chionthar or vis versa has to go through Iriaebor's territory. Through what is essentially a strait. Entire kingdoms have been built upon such choke points for trade. And they can't find a way to collect enough fees on goods moving through so as to secure their portion of the trade route? They don't have to be the most competent rulers in the world to do that.
Or is the lore that Iriaebor and its trade route are very recently established, being carved out of the frontier in the past hundred years? I could better buy it then. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 12 Sep 2021 : 20:31:25
The city says 2 days just so some clown doesn't get the idea to build a stronghold in that area and say that Iriaebor needs to pay him taxes (it has occasionally come up in the past with Iriaebor hiring adventurers to cure the individual of that idea). The 2 days is really just active road patrols. Non-road patrols are much closer in at 1 day or so. Villages here and there will have a barracks/stable for The Shield's use. In exchange, the city pledges to have a patrol there every one to two days. Other villages may see a patrol only once or twice in a 10 day.
If there is trouble reported in an area, a larger force will be sent to deal with it. On occasion, the Black Talons may be sent instead with that becoming the Zhents in the mid to late 1400s. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Sep 2021 : 18:13:16
I would say one day's ride is more reasonably for active control -- that's the area you actively patrol.
It wouldn't be unreasonable to put outposts further out than that, but those outposts would be more of a "Watch over this smaller area and let us know if anything is coming" type of thing. They'd not be responsible for patrolling that entire range, but they'd at least patrol the area around the outpost.
And obviously, those outposts are going to be in more strategic areas -- you'd not put them all around, you'd concentrate on areas you need to keep an eye on. I see them being positioned closer to important trade routes, at natural chokepoints, and in areas where known threats could come from.
People here sometimes forget that national borders in fantasy settings are a nebulous concept, and quite unlike what we have in the real world we live in now. A nation or city-state may claim that its territory extends so far out, but the reality is that they really only control the area they can effectively patrol. There is going to be a lot of concentration on natural strategic points like mountain passes and river fords, and a lot less focus on large, indefensible areas like open plains.
And however much area they control, it costs money to do so. A more prosperous realm can maintain border outposts and have regular patrols further out -- but this can be cost-prohibitive for smaller realms, and even for the larger realms, it becomes increasingly expensive the further you get from the core of the realm. These costs are not just the wages for the poor schmucks that are stationed out in the middle of nowhere -- you've got to feed them, supply them, build and maintain the physical structures they use as their bases, supply them with horses and everything to take care of the horses...
So whatever area a realm claims, it's simply not realistic for them to control much more than one or two days' ride around the core of the realm and any major fortifications (including cities). |
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