| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Mrestos Khorvaen |
Posted - 07 Oct 2020 : 11:11:42
Hello,
I'm reading Legendary Kingdoms excelent work "Ultimate Kingdoms". I was wondering if somebody has used their rules and wants to talk about them.
I think the Realms are ripe for kingdom builders. In the Sword Coast maybe Elturgard wants to extend its frontiers and face the Darkhold. Many areas in the Wild Frontier can be tamed and civilized. There are dwarf hold to rebuild and clean. And Maztica awaits for conquerors.
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| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 29 Oct 2021 : 05:17:55
I've found the Seeds of Wars and 5e Birthright conversion to be the best suited for kingdom building for the fact that both systems are relatively simple/easy to learn. If you want more in-depth/realistic rules then Ultimate Kingdoms (which I believe was derived from Pathfinder) is what you'll want. |
| Matrix Sorcica |
Posted - 23 Mar 2021 : 09:15:48
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
Ultimate Kingdoms is for 5e D&D...so could easily be adapted to the FR.
It's available for PF1 as well, and will be for PF2 too.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yikes, $30 ... any kind of sample that someone can look through if they're just curious and not really that big into realm versus realm game systems? No biggie if not, but literally I just wanted to see what it was about.
You can check the entire thing out for PF1 via the srd: https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/kingdom-building/
Now, the Ultimate series adds more options etc., but the core is what you can read here.
From what I've seen, the 5e version is a 1:1 conversion (which means, it might be great if you're looking for a PF/5E hybrid, but it's not really that graet a 5e conversion). |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 21 Mar 2021 : 02:35:52
It looks like a very expensive bag marked only "cat - with whiskers!". 
So, how does it compare to other similar things? Domain game layer of Birthright? An Echo, Resounding? Faction rules (turn-based strategy lite, really) of Stars Without Number/Worlds Without Number? 13th Age? Reign? |
| The Arcanamach |
Posted - 18 Mar 2021 : 02:16:50
You can also look into Seeds of Wars. It's heavily based on the Birthright rules but more modern. It also doesn't have bloodlines/bloodline abilities. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 22 Oct 2020 : 16:05:55
Hmmm...
The Grey Box didn't have power inflation either. Whisper was a major villain and was low level. Manshoon originally was also much lower level...and in fact most characters written for the Forgotten Realms were lower level.
As for Birthright, looking at it at this moment, the levels are comparable really. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 22 Oct 2020 : 15:52:23
quote:
Originally posted by Mrestos Khorvaen
As I said I knew little about Birthright. Mayhaps WotC would make something with it. Mayhaps...
I don't see anything happening with birthright. I had it and read it long ago (the base campaign setting). It was a fairly generic fantasy setting with some interesting ideas at the time. However, basically a lot of those ideas were all mined away and reused in a lot of other products later on. For instance, a lot of the ideas of the shadowfell kind of had a start there. If I recall correctly, Rich Baker was the original main guy on Birthright as well, and he was over FR for a while, so that's likely how a lot of those ideas migrated.
I never understood the need to make all the characters so low in level, but I think that had to do with all the people at the time screaming about the realms having such high level people. As usual, they overreacted and pushed too far down. The result was a turn off for me, because they would describe all these things, and I was like "WTF, noone can do it because there's no high level spellcasters". So, it ended up being things where only the rulers could do jack was the feeling that I got. Granted, that's me looking back more than 20 years ago with a faulty memory. |
| Mrestos Khorvaen |
Posted - 22 Oct 2020 : 15:37:21
As I said I knew little about Birthright. Mayhaps WotC would make something with it. Mayhaps... |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 11 Oct 2020 : 19:31:36
quote:
Originally posted by Mrestos Khorvaen
I think Ultimate kingdoms can be played as both high and low fantasy.
I've only get a quick reading of Birthright, but didn't characters became too powerful?
I meant that Ultimate Kingdoms would work better in the FR than the Birthright rules being used in the Forgotten Realms.
As for the power of the characters? No, most regions don't have characters in them that are above name level actually.
As an example: one of the most powerful NPC Monarchs in Anuire is only a 9th level fighter. His political power is huge, but his physical power is on par (with his Blood Abilities) of other NPCs of his level or near it.
The most powerful magic-user in Anuire is a 16th level wizard who doesn't even have access to 9th level spells. |
| Mrestos Khorvaen |
Posted - 11 Oct 2020 : 10:07:23
I think Ultimate kingdoms can be played as both high and low fantasy.
I've only get a quick reading of Birthright, but didn't characters became too powerful? |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 11 Oct 2020 : 01:32:29
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
This is the link to the free 5e Conversion for Birthright; but you will still need to buy the original setting material if you want to play there.
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-L4h_QHUKh2NeYhgD96A
I have to say that the Ultimate Kingdoms rules are likely better for playing in the Forgotten Realms which is a High Fantasy setting versus Birthright which is mostly a low magic setting (although Realm Magic is far more powerful than any 9th level spell and can be used by even a 1st level caster!).
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/303697/Ultimate-Kingdoms-5E
Hope I'm not breaking rules for stuff...I'm not advertising and have no connection to either of the links personally.
Yikes, $30 ... any kind of sample that someone can look through if they're just curious and not really that big into realm versus realm game systems? No biggie if not, but literally I just wanted to see what it was about. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Oct 2020 : 00:37:59
quote:
Originally posted by Dalor Darden
This is the link to the free 5e Conversion for Birthright; but you will still need to buy the original setting material if you want to play there.
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-L4h_QHUKh2NeYhgD96A
I have to say that the Ultimate Kingdoms rules are likely better for playing in the Forgotten Realms which is a High Fantasy setting versus Birthright which is mostly a low magic setting (although Realm Magic is far more powerful than any 9th level spell and can be used by even a 1st level caster!).
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/303697/Ultimate-Kingdoms-5E
Hope I'm not breaking rules for stuff...I'm not advertising and have no connection to either of the links personally.
No, that rule is more about the people that sign up just to spam us.
Birthright seemed interesting, to me, but at the time, my gaming dollar was already stretched by other TSR settings, and I wasn't sure about the whole playing as rulers thing. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 10 Oct 2020 : 23:19:28
This is the link to the free 5e Conversion for Birthright; but you will still need to buy the original setting material if you want to play there.
https://www.gmbinder.com/share/-L4h_QHUKh2NeYhgD96A
I have to say that the Ultimate Kingdoms rules are likely better for playing in the Forgotten Realms which is a High Fantasy setting versus Birthright which is mostly a low magic setting (although Realm Magic is far more powerful than any 9th level spell and can be used by even a 1st level caster!).
https://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/303697/Ultimate-Kingdoms-5E
Hope I'm not breaking rules for stuff...I'm not advertising and have no connection to either of the links personally. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 10 Oct 2020 : 19:36:11
quote:
Originally posted by Mrestos Khorvaen
Sleyvas, Are you sure that was the reason Maztica was quit? I don't think so. After all it was how all started.
Some clerics of Helm helped at the conquest and weren't punished by the gods. I think many conquerors could be seen as lawful neutral, more than evil.
UK is written for 5e, but I think there is also a version compatible with Pathfinder and 3.5 edition.
Yes, I'm sure. Sales sucked. Noone was buying the stuff. They were buying other stuff and the forums were blowing up with people complaining about Maztica being "unoriginal". Then for the past 25 years, 90% of the people here and elsewhere have bashed the setting repeatedly for the same thing. Honestly, I only got into the region later when I started delving the lore and saw the glimmers there and figured if it were reworked it could have something. Seethyr's done a whole lot more thinking on that particular area (Maztica itself), but both of us turned out to really like the city of gold expansion up in Anchorome (which is very far separated from Maztica itself... kind of like Calimshan/Chult compared to Baldur's Gate maybe for distance difference). I say Calimashan/Chult due to the size of Maztica itself since its roughly the size of the region from Calimshan to Chult and its whole peninsula, including the ocean between.
On clerics of Helm and them not being punished, the point being in what I saw was that eventually they'd run into issues as the Mazticans fight back like terrorists. You said that terrorists can't win out. I said they can unless people act like Romans, and when they do that they turn decidedly non-good. For instance, doing something like "if you kill one of us, we'll kill ten civilians". The initial invasion into Maztica wasn't this kind of brutality. Its really easy for an army to come in and do a blazing run in (like we did in Iraq initially). Its hard and expensive to then hold that territory against resistance. As far as Europeans invading and killing of the incas, etc... remember one major thing... Europeans brought in a disease and that's what wiped those cultures. I think it was small pox.
As to Ultimate Kingdom. Got a link? I'm interested in the ruleset despite some of the things I've said. I just wanted to give you a heads up that pushing an idea here about invading Maztica would go over like a fart in an elevator. |
| Mrestos Khorvaen |
Posted - 10 Oct 2020 : 08:20:43
I will look that Birthright. I don't know may about that world. |
| Mrestos Khorvaen |
Posted - 10 Oct 2020 : 08:17:13
Sleyvas, Are you sure that was the reason Maztica was quit? I don't think so. After all it was how all started.
Some clerics of Helm helped at the conquest and weren't punished by the gods. I think many conquerors could be seen as lawful neutral, more than evil.
UK is written for 5e, but I think there is also a version compatible with Pathfinder and 3.5 edition.
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| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 09 Oct 2020 : 20:31:43
Ultimate Kingdoms is for 5e D&D...so could easily be adapted to the FR.
Also, there is a Free Birthright 5e conversion that could be used in the FR too...I'll have to give UK a look though. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Oct 2020 : 15:05:14
quote:
Originally posted by Mrestos Khorvaen
UK is about building kingdoms in all its aspects: raising cities, making treaties, fighting battles, arranging marriages.
It can also be used to simply fight big battles, epic sieges, including sea combats. Even aerial battles with flying ships and floating citadels.
There are some examples in the novels of young kingdoms, built and lost in a few generations, like Athalantar.
Having many city states without a real alliance gives many chances to ambitious adventurers to create a kingdom.
About Maztica, Cordell and his legion cut a bloody path through native armies. Spanish conquerors took the Aztek and Inca empires in a short time. Remember many natives would join the invaders to change status quo. Of course the more remote areas were more difficult (and less interesting) to conquer.
Guerilla wars can be painful, but without a real army to support them, it's destined to fail. Spanish guerrilleros could only defeat Napoleon with help from the Brittish.
Yeah, I know what was written for Maztica. I'm just saying what was written turned around and pissed off a lot of people, to the point that they quit developing Maztica very fast. Also, guerilla wars can be very effective to make a place annoying enough that the aggressors leave. There's numerous instances of that in our world, especially if the aggressors don't want to turn into evil bastards like the Romans (and in the realms, this might have repercussions like gods turning against people etc...).
That all being said, what's these "ultimate kingdoms" rules made for? Is it made for D&D or is it some generic system or something for pathfinder? It might be fun to read at least. |
| Mrestos Khorvaen |
Posted - 09 Oct 2020 : 09:02:52
UK is about building kingdoms in all its aspects: raising cities, making treaties, fighting battles, arranging marriages.
It can also be used to simply fight big battles, epic sieges, including sea combats. Even aerial battles with flying ships and floating citadels.
There are some examples in the novels of young kingdoms, built and lost in a few generations, like Athalantar.
Having many city states without a real alliance gives many chances to ambitious adventurers to create a kingdom.
About Maztica, Cordell and his legion cut a bloody path through native armies. Spanish conquerors took the Aztek and Inca empires in a short time. Remember many natives would join the invaders to change status quo. Of course the more remote areas were more difficult (and less interesting) to conquer.
Guerilla wars can be painful, but without a real army to support them, it's destined to fail. Spanish guerrilleros could only defeat Napoleon with help from the Brittish.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 07 Oct 2020 : 12:59:10
I'm not familiar with those rules, but it sounds like a kingdom versus kingdom ruleset? Personally, that sounds more like something for Greyhawk type campaigns. So much of the realms is fractious instead of resolved as true kingdoms. For instance, Sembia is more like a collection of city states that have agreed to similar rule. The same with Thesk, Amn, Chessenta, to a degree Calimshan, etc... and a lot of regions aren't even anything like a collective (i.e. the north, the reach, the moonsea, the border kingdoms, etc...).
On Maztica being conquered, that's a very sore subject, because that's how it was originally presented, and most people don't want to see a remake of the idea of colonial Europe taking over America (especially given that colonial Europe took like 4 centuries to accomplish it). This is why the things I've done in the area consist of building small groupings of city states in far flung areas. I also don't think the people of Faerun could just roll into those environments and take over, because the inhabitants would simply kill them off via "the thousand cuts".... i.e. attacking small vulnerable groups, poisoning their foodstuffs, and things which modern day cultures would call terrorist activities. |
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