| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| MTBlack |
Posted - 24 Jul 2020 : 00:14:04
I am thrilled to announce that "Darkhold: Secrets of the Zhentarim" is coming in August! This stunning new book for Dungeons & Dragons 5e includes:
- New lore about the Zhentarim & their mighty fortress, Darkhold
- New player options
- Thieves Cant
- Guide to Evil Characters & Campaigns
- Magic items and Spells
- NPC stat blocks
- Gorgeous maps
Ed Greenwood contributed to this project and has given us access to reams of previously unseen lore!
Sign up here to receive a 20% discount: http://eepurl.com/g-4XfP |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Renin |
Posted - 26 Apr 2022 : 23:52:43
*shrugs*
Batman rant dropped in as vehicle to express ridiculous nature of American entertainment that says 'drugs-BAD!' but killing and murdering are okay-as long as they are 'bad guys who deserve it.' |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 23 Apr 2022 : 23:41:02
quote:
Originally posted by Renin
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
It seems also weird to ban the selling of drugs when the Zhentarim almost certainly are still selling swords, arms, and magical items of killing. It's okay to be an arms trafficker but not drug dealer? Is that what we're going for?
Yes.
In The Batman, heaven forbid Colin Farrell as the Penguin smoke a long tipped cigarette, or watch Gordon have a cigar.
Shooting and killing many people? That's okay, they deserve it!
But put a cigarette in the hands of a villain onscreen, and you'd think you just murdered a baby. It's ridiculous.
And this is relevant to this DM's Guild product in what way? |
| Renin |
Posted - 23 Apr 2022 : 20:23:46
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
It seems also weird to ban the selling of drugs when the Zhentarim almost certainly are still selling swords, arms, and magical items of killing. It's okay to be an arms trafficker but not drug dealer? Is that what we're going for?
Yes.
In The Batman, heaven forbid Colin Farrell as the Penguin smoke a long tipped cigarette, or watch Gordon have a cigar.
Shooting and killing many people? That's okay, they deserve it!
But put a cigarette in the hands of a villain onscreen, and you'd think you just murdered a baby. It's ridiculous. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 12 Apr 2022 : 07:05:16
I just finished reaidng this book and wanted to share my thoughts:
The Good
1] I really enjoyed Darkhold: Secrets of the Zhentarim and think it is a fantastic book. I've always had a huge fondness for the Zhentarim and think they deserved a better shake than they got in Realms canon. Their elevation to being a player character faction is a great idea and I'm glad to see you took advantage of it.
2:] The roleplaying hints on how to play an "evil" character were extremely well done and nicely addresses about 90% of the problems that playing an evil character normally does in these sorts of games. There's nothing that says evil characters can't have friends, loved ones, or their own codes. They're just, by and large, awful-awful people.
3:] I really enjoyed the use of Thieves Cant in the Zhentarim and believe that the tables there were nicely evocative.
4:] The various "side missions" for being a member of the Zhentarim in their downtime works well and shows just what sort of nefarious nefariousness they're up to. Assassination, burglary, and the usual evil business.
5:] There's a lot of humor to be had with the fact that the Pereghost, a man who is literally struggling with multiple spirits possessing his body and was an absolutely crap paladin in life, is far-far better a leader than Fzoul or Manshoon combined.
6:] I liked the history of Darkhold even if I really wished they'd rebuilt Zhentil Keep by now.
7:] Lots of good information on classes and other gameplay material. Very good crunch.
8:] I do like all of the writeups you did for the "main players." I especially liked the revelation that original recipe Manshoon is still alive, Mystra actually has preserved his soul through seven clones (so ALL of them are the original Manshoon), and that Fzoul actually hates leading people. I kind of liked how Mystra is willing to help Manshoon despite his evil because, of course, he is one of the greatest wizards alive.
The Iffy
1:] I imagine it was for space reasons but the complete absence of The Ruins of Zhentil Keep and the fall of that place to Cyric was surprising. Especially since that was the devastation that prompted Fzoul to turn to Iyachtu Xvim.
2:] Also, I am saddened by no mention of the GREATEST GOD OF THEM ALL. Yes, Iyachtu Xvim will someday return and have his revenge! REVENGE! I presume, again, space reasons.
3:] Semmenon lacking a write-up was really annoying as I'm confused as to what he's doing or how he got there or where since he defected for love to the Moonstars. Was he ever with Ashemmi now? Was she using him as part of her cover? If she wasn't brainwashed, Ashemmi may have been doing a lot of deep and dirty manipulations or is that just non-canon anymore? It's a shame too because they were my favorite Realms power couple.
4:] Similarly, what does this mean for Cara Zoreth? Did Ashemmi abandon her child as part of her cover? Did she arrange for her to end up in Bronwyn's hands? What does this mean for the Lady of Thornhold and her ward?
5:] I can understand why slavery is no longer in the Zhentarim's wheelhouse. The people who would most likely buy slaves from are the Drow and the Thayans. The latter are off limits and the former are spotty partners to begin with. You'd get much more open markets and ability to operate freely with slavery banned.
However why are drugs off-limits? Drugs weren't illegal until the 20th century and it was a health issue until Nixon decided to wage war on blacks and hippies. Drawing an equivalency in the realms is bizarre. What's the difference between it and selling alcohol?
It seems also weird to ban the selling of drugs when the Zhentarim almost certainly are still selling swords, arms, and magical items of killing. It's okay to be an arms trafficker but not drug dealer? Is that what we're going for?
6:] What happened to Scyulla Darkhope. I love the expansion for women in the Zhentarim but it seems weird to remove the second most important woman in the organization. The Zhents version of Kitiara seems like she deserves mentioning.
Overall
Very impressive work! Thanks for doing it.
I know this is all non-canon but I'd love to hear your entirely non-canon answers anyway! |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 12 Apr 2022 : 07:02:57
I would love to have that information, even if it is two years later!
|
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 14 Oct 2020 : 22:33:34
For anyone interested, I have incorporated the outlined history presented into my 9 page Darkhold timeline and placed a new copy in the file drop listed in my sig. The history runs from -5361 to the Zhent takeover in 1312. It includes how Varalla was able to be brought back to unlife, Endarakh's adjustment to the changes in magic in a post-Karsus' Folly world, Corm Orp's relationship with the giants, and the founding and subsequent collapse of the Giant Empire of Guldaur. Now that this is done, I can fold these changes into the Iriaebor timeline I was working on before the Secrets of the Zhentarim came out.
MTBlack, if you don't want this out there, just let me know and I will pull it. There is ALOT of information in Secrets of the Zhentarim and the history of the Darkhold presented in there is really only a drop in the bucket. |
| Mrestos Khorvaen |
Posted - 29 Sep 2020 : 21:56:23
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Mrestos Khorvaen
I'm reading that work and it's really interesting, full of sugesting stuff.
But I think it's somewhat sad that the Zhents, who were close to conquest the Moonsea and the Dalelands, are now reduced to rule a lonely fortress.
I also think the book could have introduced some Zhent agents into the polytics of Berdusk and other nearly towns.
It is beyond bizarre, to me, that Zhentil Keep gets leveled and is back to normal 10 years later -- but then it gets leveled a second time and it's utterly written off. I mean hey, way to project strength and capability -- someone kicks in your front door and you run away and hide in the shed. 
Yeah, way to go, WTC! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 29 Sep 2020 : 16:12:58
quote:
Originally posted by Mrestos Khorvaen
I'm reading that work and it's really interesting, full of sugesting stuff.
But I think it's somewhat sad that the Zhents, who were close to conquest the Moonsea and the Dalelands, are now reduced to rule a lonely fortress.
I also think the book could have introduced some Zhent agents into the polytics of Berdusk and other nearly towns.
It is beyond bizarre, to me, that Zhentil Keep gets leveled and is back to normal 10 years later -- but then it gets leveled a second time and it's utterly written off. I mean hey, way to project strength and capability -- someone kicks in your front door and you run away and hide in the shed. |
| Mrestos Khorvaen |
Posted - 29 Sep 2020 : 14:27:56
I'm reading that work and it's really interesting, full of sugesting stuff.
But I think it's somewhat sad that the Zhents, who were close to conquest the Moonsea and the Dalelands, are now reduced to rule a lonely fortress.
I also think the book could have introduced some Zhent agents into the polytics of Berdusk and other nearly towns. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 00:25:53
quote:
Originally posted by MTBlack
I hadn't given the construction time too much thought! The Netherese had some handy spells when it came to excavation and construction. For example, it's possible that a variant of Proctiv's Move Mountain may have been useful.
Thank you. I will look through the Arcane Age stuff. Also, I realized my calculation was off by about 1/3rd. The pillar would be a cylinder and that works out to be about 56 million cubic feet. |
| MTBlack |
Posted - 26 Aug 2020 : 23:32:44
I hadn't given the construction time too much thought! The Netherese had some handy spells when it came to excavation and construction. For example, it's possible that a variant of Proctiv's Move Mountain may have been useful. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 26 Aug 2020 : 03:31:04
quote:
Originally posted by MTBlack
Those are some cool ideas, Iriaeban! Tell me, have you published any books or anything? I'd be interested to see more of your work.
Thank you but I am unpublished as of yet. I am considering putting the Iriaebor update I am creating on DMGuild but only if I can put maps and artwork in there. I have other examples of what I have written at the link in my signature.
BTW, I am working on how long it took to actually build the new layout for Darkhold. What would people say would be a reasonable amount of time to create that rock pillar the new Darkhold is sitting on using some very powerful magic? I have calculated it is 84 million cubic feet of rock (according to the drawing in the supplement, the pillar is about 350 ft x 300 ft x 800 ft). I know it wasn't wished into existence since it mentions that elementals helped with the construction. Plus, it can't be wished into existence since I am using the rune magic woven into the stones of the original keep to explain both how the phylactery was repaired and why it absolutely had to occur in that location.
Edit: Well, I do have a 6th level spell that could do it if it was cast 4,800 times by the highest level mage I have. Or, if there was a 10th level version, it would only be 300 times (since this is pre-Karsus' Folly, there can be 10th level spells). My original thought was to have the lich circle the pillar for 53 days straight, chanting the whole time. She is a lich so she doesn't need to eat or sleep but that wouldn't work with the giants and Netherese enclave there. |
| MTBlack |
Posted - 26 Aug 2020 : 00:50:45
Those are some cool ideas, Iriaeban! Tell me, have you published any books or anything? I'd be interested to see more of your work. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 25 Aug 2020 : 16:31:38
quote:
Originally posted by MTBlack
* The stated reason to build the Darkhold was to build a tomb to protect someone while they "regenerated". The question becomes, why would anyone do that in a well known and very likely inhabited location? Especially if it had been that way for decades, centuries, or even millennia? *
Darkhold Vale is not easy to get to, high up in the Sunset Mountains. I don't agree it would have been a "well-known" area at this time. It may well have been inhabited, but it would not have been beyond a powerful Netherese Lich to clear out whoever they were. By the way, this story came from Ed Greenwood, not from one of the other designers. We wrote it up, but the ideas were his, and reconciled some conflicts in the pre-existing canon.
* Finally, I am really not a fan of the new design. It looks too much like the giant fortresses in WoW's Northrend area. *
You must surely agree it looks much better than the old design from Castles 2e, though!
Oh, it does look better. I just wish it was more distictive and not look like it was recycled from WoW.
I think I have found a way to have this make better sense with a few tweaks. This works since the actual history presented isn't very detailed:
Fjelltobyrdfestingheim is constructed (in the form it has in Castles) in -5350 DR by stone giants for the Giant Emperor of Nedeheim as a summer retreat. His loss in the Giant Wars prevents it from getting used as that. Netherese arcanists find it in -1976 and strike a deal with the giants (who really didn't have a choice) to have a Netherese enclave there so that warriors from Wreathe can use it as a base camp to hunt large prey in the Sunset Mt region. That is basically the state of things until c-370. Then, the lich shows up. She already knows about the place and figures she can use it to "hide in plain sight" because you don't go and almost destroy a netherese city and expect to have the archmages there to NOT start hunting you down. She is able to use her magic to "inspire" the giants to want to improve the place so they rebuild it into it's new form and rename it Guldyn (the giants believe the elementals were sent by their god to help them). It stays that way until -337. Karsus's Folly causes the lich's control to falter and the giants go and kill all the Netherese there thinking they were the source of the control (the lich is operating in hiding). The lich, with varied levels of success, attempts to regain control but the giants are on to her and that makes it more difficult. She finally realizes that it isn't going to work around -100 and decides to find some other place to hang out.
That should cover why there isn't a village/town/city there in -370 (whose destruction would have certainly not gone unnoticed and unrecorded) while also keeping Ed's history intact. It also allows the area to have a much richer history. I will edit the Darkhold timeline I have in my writeup drop to include this new information.
|
| MTBlack |
Posted - 25 Aug 2020 : 05:33:19
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I'm not sure that the history of Varalla works with what Eric proposed in the recent candlekeep seminar. I wonder if this piece of lore came from Ed or not
Hi Gary, can you expand? Where do you think the conflict is? |
| MTBlack |
Posted - 25 Aug 2020 : 05:30:01
* The stated reason to build the Darkhold was to build a tomb to protect someone while they "regenerated". The question becomes, why would anyone do that in a well known and very likely inhabited location? Especially if it had been that way for decades, centuries, or even millennia? *
Darkhold Vale is not easy to get to, high up in the Sunset Mountains. I don't agree it would have been a "well-known" area at this time. It may well have been inhabited, but it would not have been beyond a powerful Netherese Lich to clear out whoever they were. By the way, this story came from Ed Greenwood, not from one of the other designers. We wrote it up, but the ideas were his, and reconciled some conflicts in the pre-existing canon.
* Finally, I am really not a fan of the new design. It looks too much like the giant fortresses in WoW's Northrend area. *
You must surely agree it looks much better than the old design from Castles 2e, though! |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 20 Aug 2020 : 23:12:51
quote:
Originally posted by MTBlack
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
How many pages is this supposed to be? My downloaded pdf seems to just end at page 112. Is there supposed to be a "back cover"?
It is 112 pages. There is no back cover as we usually don't do them for PDFs
I could understand no back cover for a free or pay what you want, I have a hard time understanding why there is not one for a set price.
There again you might need to charge a little more for the typing and/or art if there was any to be on it. So you are saving customers money by not having a back cover, I guess. |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 20 Aug 2020 : 19:23:23
Having now gone over the history as presented in this supplement and comparing it to previous canon dates for other events for that area, that -370 DR construction date really doesn't make sense. The stated reason to build the Darkhold was to build a tomb to protect someone while they "regenerated". The question becomes, why would anyone do that in a well known and very likely inhabited location? Especially if it had been that way for decades, centuries, or even millennia? Here is the basic problem and the canon dates that contribute to my conclusion:
Problem: The valley the Darkhold is situated in is perfect from a defense point of view. You have a valley with a "narrow" entrance that has a steady water supply and trees (likely more trees in the beginning than now). No where has it been indicated, in either the old or new information, that the valley is in any way wholly or partially artificial. It would have been, for very likely millennia, a location that any group would set up a village or town because of not only the security of the location but also the lumber resources available to create a palisade across the entrance for protection (as well as to build buildings to live and work in).
Here are the dates that casts doubt that the valley would have been uninhabited in -370:
-450: A large migration of settlers from Netheril occurred into the Sunset Vale area.
-626: A map shows that the Talfir Tribes were in the Sunset Vale.
-2145: Netherese arcanists found Wreathe just to the south of the Purple Mountains. That is only about 400 miles away from the Darkhold valley so I would expect SOMEONE from there would have found it prior to -370.
-2387: The gnomes are released by the Netherese. With a flood of them in the area, there is no reason to think they wouldn't have found the valley.
-2400s: Several houses of Netheril spread out and create remote villas for their own enjoyment and experimentation. If they went as far southwest as present day Elturel, there is no reason to think they wouldn't have gone to the closer Sunset Mountains.
Those are just some of the few dates listing specific groups. That area has had gnomes, halflings, humans, elves, and who knows how many monster races like goblins and orcs operating there for millennia, all of whom would have settled that location in a second. Given that, I find it highly unlikely that the valley was not inhabited by -370 DR. The Darkhold would have had to have been constructed MUCH earlier to prevent those groups from settling down there.
Finally, I am really not a fan of the new design. It looks too much like the giant fortresses in WoW's Northrend area. |
| MTBlack |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 07:19:05
quote:
Originally posted by Swordsage
I've looked at the sample and thought the Pereghost is very interesting. Can't work out exactly when this product is set DR-wise though. No mention of the Cyricist presence in Darkhold that I can see which was clearly set out in "Cloak & Dagger". Your changes to Ashemmi are significant and notable, if only because as Wooly Rupert points out, you've ignored published Realmslore - something I'm not a fan of. At least you've been up front about it given recent controversies. Sememmon is a footnote which makes little sense given he was the Master of Darkhold. The Sunset Vale work is invaluable for anyone trying to move away from the Sword Coast and very useful for DMs. Good stuff. Maps are gorgeous, although again without going with the previously published lore. Some of the magic items and spells are pretty cool, while others are a bit iffy (warpsword, cosmic coin bank and death rock are in the latter category). Evil campaigns aren't my thing but I think they've been dealt with well here. History and timeline has little new stuff other than the Pereghost, Manshoon and Varalla information, and I can see Ed Greenwood's hand in that. All in all, a decent fan offering but a step down from the Candlekeep product. Would be good to know what lore was provided by Ed Greenwood and what stuff the other designers wrote.
The Swordsage
Hi Swordsage,
Thanks for your comments. The product is set in the early 1490s, which is the current timeframe for Fifth Edition. As to your other questions:
* According to Ed, Bane is very much in the ascendancy these days at Darkhold, but we do mention that there is still a small shrine to Cyric in Darkhold (page 56).
* Sememmon is mentioned half a dozen times in the book but we don't give him much emphasis since he is no longer part of the Zhentarim and nor is he in Darkhold.
* I think we dug into all available lore for the Sunset Vale stuff, but space constraints meant it could only be summarized.
* Ed provided extensive notes to us and also read the whole product twice, giving us corrections. His involvement was extensive.
Ed said I could share the following comments with anyone who asked:
"You and the rest of the team have done the Realms proud! And for me, I am SO pleased to have the Zhentarim covered in-depth and properly, at last. Yes, we just scratched the surface, but it's enough that a DM has not just a spur for ideas, but something deployable to work with at the gaming table. Great to lay bare the mystery of the Pereghost at last, and flesh out a supporting cast that isn't all menacing males, and make the Zhents feel REAL and not just Blackhelm Keystone Kops here to be beat up by the good guys again.
Please feel free to share these words with anyone on the team you think would like to hear them. I am beyond pleased with this project."
kind regards,
MTB |
| MTBlack |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 07:08:14
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
Just to clarify, the history is implying that the giants were there until almost 400 DR. Is that a correct?
Correct |
| Swordsage |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 05:25:33
I've looked at the sample and thought the Pereghost is very interesting. Can't work out exactly when this product is set DR-wise though. No mention of the Cyricist presence in Darkhold that I can see which was clearly set out in "Cloak & Dagger". Your changes to Ashemmi are significant and notable, if only because as Wooly Rupert points out, you've ignored published Realmslore - something I'm not a fan of. At least you've been up front about it given recent controversies. Sememmon is a footnote which makes little sense given he was the Master of Darkhold. The Sunset Vale work is invaluable for anyone trying to move away from the Sword Coast and very useful for DMs. Good stuff. Maps are gorgeous, although again without going with the previously published lore. Some of the magic items and spells are pretty cool, while others are a bit iffy (warpsword, cosmic coin bank and death rock are in the latter category). Evil campaigns aren't my thing but I think they've been dealt with well here. History and timeline has little new stuff other than the Pereghost, Manshoon and Varalla information, and I can see Ed Greenwood's hand in that. All in all, a decent fan offering but a step down from the Candlekeep product. Would be good to know what lore was provided by Ed Greenwood and what stuff the other designers wrote.
The Swordsage |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 04:54:08
Just to clarify, the history is implying that the giants were there until almost 400 DR. Is that a correct? |
| MTBlack |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 04:17:49
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I like what y'all did with The Pereghost.
I am not enthusiastic about the retcon to Ashemmi, especially since it entirely invalidates a novel and impacts at least two others...
I understand. This was always going to be the most controversial thing we did. This, and the physical shape of Darkhold (which I think looks dreadful in Castles 2e) were the only major departures from canon that we made. Everything else we worked very hard to reconcile with existing lore. |
| MTBlack |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 04:14:46
quote:
Originally posted by TheIriaeban
How many pages is this supposed to be? My downloaded pdf seems to just end at page 112. Is there supposed to be a "back cover"?
It is 112 pages. There is no back cover as we usually don't do them for PDFs |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 19 Aug 2020 : 00:49:24
How many pages is this supposed to be? My downloaded pdf seems to just end at page 112. Is there supposed to be a "back cover"? |
| MTBlack |
Posted - 18 Aug 2020 : 22:15:13
Darkhold: Secrets of the Zhentarim is now available!
Click here: https://www.dmsguild.com/product/324679/Darkhold-Secrets-of-the-Zhentarim?src=hottest_filtered&filters=45469 |
| MTBlack |
Posted - 18 Aug 2020 : 22:11:39
quote:
Originally posted by Gary Dallison
I'm not sure that the history of Varalla works with what Eric proposed in the recent candlekeep seminar. I wonder if this piece of lore came from Ed or not
Ed worked with us very closely on the book. He supplied most of the lore and okayed our original ideas. |
| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 18 Aug 2020 : 21:14:20
I'm not sure that the history of Varalla works with what Eric proposed in the recent candlekeep seminar. I wonder if this piece of lore came from Ed or not |
| TheIriaeban |
Posted - 18 Aug 2020 : 20:38:12
The history was not as detailed as I was hoping/fearing it would be so I won't necessarily have to make much of a change to the stuff I am putting together for Iriaebor. I do have a more detailed timeline of the Darkhold at the link in my signature that I had put there months ago (based on as much canon I could find while putting it together and before I even knew this was going to come out). Once I get a chance to really dig into this new information, there will be some adjustments needed in that detailed timeline. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 18 Aug 2020 : 19:13:59
I haven't seen what they did here, but I think the original retcon of Ashemmi and Semmemmon was one of the worst things ever done in Realms writing. Totally broke the great situation that was there for 20+ years - and then it never went anywhere accept like 5 sentences in novels and a couple offhand notes. It also got rid of one of the very few powerful female villains of the realms that had not been killed off in the same work introduced.
In my own realms I also re-retcon'd them both. I simply killed the lovey dovey pair off and cloned the originals. Shake and bake back to status quo :)
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