| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Apr 2009 : 00:42:47
Well met
This is a Book Club thread for Downshadow [Book 3 of "The Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep" series], by Erik Scott de Bie. Please discuss Chapter 35 and the Epilogue herein: |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 03 Apr 2010 : 01:32:04
MAN, is this off topic.
But go on!
Cheers |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Apr 2010 : 01:22:30
Wooly has a point. Willow's own storyline in the old Dark Horse comics remains among some of my "yearly readings" pile o' comics! |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 03 Apr 2010 : 00:37:56
Ooh! Willow!
Dark Willow FTW.
Cheers |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Apr 2010 : 00:31:21
Faith? Buffy? Who are these non-Willow girls you speak of?  |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 02 Apr 2010 : 17:02:19
Well, that's why we have Dollhouse, now isn't it? 
Not that it's a replacement, but hey.
Cheers |
| The Sage |
Posted - 02 Apr 2010 : 16:05:32
Agreed. Too bad the rumours of Faith getting her own spin-off series kinda just fizzled out. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 02 Apr 2010 : 15:54:24
quote:
Originally posted by gomez
But bad girls are the best girls... (even though some of my better girls are lawful good)
They're certainly as fun to write about as they are to watch/read.
Which is why Fayne and Lady Ilira/Fox-at-Twilight are two of my favorite characters. And there might just be a new one coming up . . . we'll see.
Cheers
P.S. Totally prefer Faith over Buffy, just for the record. |
| gomez |
Posted - 02 Apr 2010 : 08:23:36
But bad girls are the best girls... (even though some of my better girls are lawful good) |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 01 Apr 2010 : 20:32:25
I suppose Myrin, by comparison. At least . . . so far.
Cheers |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Apr 2010 : 17:12:45
*The Sage, who ponders just what would constitute a "4e good girl" in Erik's world.* |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 01 Apr 2010 : 15:55:30
Oh, she'd have a lot to learn from my favorite 4e bad girl. 
Cheers |
| gomez |
Posted - 01 Apr 2010 : 15:26:20
Not really Clarry's approach. She knows that flirting and teasing is a part of a noble's social agenda - at the right moments - but she is in a committed relationship. Her temper, arrogance, and eagerness for adventure (if only to rebel against her parents) however make her easy to manipulate.
|
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 30 Mar 2010 : 23:59:36
quote:
Originally posted by gomez
If I could play, it would likely be with Lady Clarissa Velaunt, a Waterdhavian noble lass with a hot temper, quite full of herself. I think she'd be easy prey for Fayne.
Heh heh. Sounds like it!
I did have one female player with a female character who went out of her way to hit on Fayne. So clearly.
Cheers |
| gomez |
Posted - 30 Mar 2010 : 08:20:13
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de BieI highly recommend giving it a shot, if you can snag a copy.
I know one DM who run it. I could probably get him to run it for me, or maybe I could run it instead.
I do have some hooks into Undermountain myself (ties to Halaster). But I doubt the PCs will find a fragment of a clay tablet in the Encounters...
quote:
Heh heh. It's fun to see people who have never heard of her, who just have no idea what they're in for, and who fall for the dumb blonde act.
If I could play, it would likely be with Lady Clarissa Velaunt, a Waterdhavian noble lass with a hot temper, quite full of herself. I think she'd be easy prey for Fayne.
|
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 29 Mar 2010 : 17:18:46
quote:
Originally posted by gomez
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
You can also check out Fayne in the forthcoming RPGA-ish D&D Encounters program, the first adventure of which I wrote: http://wizards.com/dnd/Event.aspx?x=dnd/4new/event/dndencounters
I saw Fayne's name pass in a mail about the program.
I haven't played it yet, and I likely won't soon. I sadly don't have the time to play every week.
Yeah, I know how that goes. Fortunately . . .
quote:
Maybe I'll get someone to run if in a marathon session at some point in the future.
It seems to hold up pretty well as an actual adventure to be played all in a row. The only conceptual difference between the Encounters adventure and, say, Keep on the Shadowfell is that the Encounters is maybe a bit more linear--i.e., it works to keep players running through the same encounter on the same day. If you snagged the campaign for your own use outside the program, however, you could seriously expand it and do all sorts of fun stuff! And there are indeed a number of outlying story threads you can pick up. I highly recommend giving it a shot, if you can snag a copy.
quote:
I would, as a player, be a bit wary having my PC get hired by Fayne though...
Heh heh. It's fun to see people who have never heard of her, who just have no idea what they're in for, and who fall for the dumb blonde act. I've seen a number of comments that are like, "why is she such a ditz?" or "man, she's really over the top!"
Ah, to be a shapechanging con artist.
Cheers |
| gomez |
Posted - 29 Mar 2010 : 06:35:09
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
You can also check out Fayne in the forthcoming RPGA-ish D&D Encounters program, the first adventure of which I wrote: http://wizards.com/dnd/Event.aspx?x=dnd/4new/event/dndencounters
I saw Fayne's name pass in a mail about the program.
I haven't played it yet, and I likely won't soon. I sadly don't have the time to play every week.
Maybe I'll get someone to run if in a marathon session at some point in the future.
I would, as a player, be a bit wary having my PC get hired by Fayne though...
Gomez
|
| Eye of Horus-Re |
Posted - 16 Mar 2010 : 19:47:32
Cause an Elder Orb wasnt bad enough....lets make him a Death Tyrant! Love it! (I know that isnt NECESSARILY what you are saying. But I still like it) :) |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 15 Mar 2010 : 01:11:29
Hey guys, thanks for the kind words, and yes, I hope to give you more about these characters in the future.
@skychrome: Yeah, I leave loose ends, because the characters' stories just aren't finished, and I want to write more about them. Shadowbane, Twilight, Fayne, Myrin . . . there's going to be more about them someday. I'm confident, and you should be too!
@EoHR: Yes, in my conception, the Sightless is the new incarnation of the Eye. Not that it's officially canonical, but it's implied: they are called the Sightless after the Xanathar perished in the course of the Spellplague, and Avaereene seized control of the guild. That doesn't mean, however, that the Xanathar isn't still around--possibly as a death tyrant.
Also, I wouldn't bet on having figured Fayne out. I fully intend on surprising you.
@skychrome: Oh, Fayne is definitely herself--I'm not hiding somebody in her form. She might be someone more important than she otherwise seems, but she's definitely an original character.
You can also check out Fayne in the forthcoming RPGA-ish D&D Encounters program, the first adventure of which I wrote: http://wizards.com/dnd/Event.aspx?x=dnd/4new/event/dndencounters
Cheers |
| skychrome |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 21:22:17
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by skychrome
Woah! I just realized that Fayne is daughter of Cythara and Graz'zt!? 
Certainly is an intriguing possibility, isn't it?
More on this to be revealed at a later date.
Cheers
Uh, another thing just crossed my mind: Fayne = Belyara? |
| Eye of Horus-Re |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 20:44:42
Oh BTW I LOVED the Avaereene cameo! Question....is The Sightless the new incarnation of The Eye? |
| Eye of Horus-Re |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 20:41:43
Good afternoon!
I just finished Downshadow a couple of days ago. I just wanted to say I enjoyed it completely! It is unlike any other Realms novel I have read to date. (I still have many to go, but have been reading them almost 20 years) It was very gritty, and I found that refreshing. There are few FR stories that revolve around a Non-RSE or close to. Fayne had me guessing right until the end. Kalen is very well developed and an awesome character concept. I must add that there are few stories that I have read post-1385 that I found interesting. (yes I am one of those), but this one kept me glued right till the end! Thank you very much for giving us this great story. Bravo! |
| skychrome |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 20:37:04
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
quote:
Originally posted by skychrome
Woah! I just realized that Fayne is daughter of Cythara and Graz'zt!?
Certainly is an intriguing possibility, isn't it?
More on this to be revealed at a later date.
Cheers
Hopefully!!  I saw a few days ago how you get praised on Gleemax, so it is really difficult for me to understand why WoTC hasn't assigned you new novels yet!
I'd especially favor a trilogy so you can finally close more story threads than open new ones (the only thing that always bothered me about your novels).
And I am still longing for this extrensive Fox-series...
|
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 20:16:27
quote:
Originally posted by skychrome
Woah! I just realized that Fayne is daughter of Cythara and Graz'zt!?
Certainly is an intriguing possibility, isn't it?
More on this to be revealed at a later date.
Cheers |
| skychrome |
Posted - 12 Mar 2010 : 20:07:43
Woah! I just realized that Fayne is daughter of Cythara and Graz'zt!? |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 02 Dec 2009 : 15:45:46
Good question, CEV.
Firstly, yes, it's quite possible--even likely--that Elaith did know all about it, or at least some of it. I want to note that there is no indication either way that Elaith does or does not know about the happenings in this book. There are whole levels of intrigue I did not go into--you think the Blackstaff didn't notice the magical chaos after the revel scene? (In fact, it's even cited at one point that the lord wizard did indeed comment on those events.)
Secondly, even if Elaith (or any other high level NPC for that matter) did know about it, that doesn't necessarily mean that he would actually do anything about it. Elaith is only one person, and he's got all his own stuff to deal with. Shadowbane and his involved allies/enemies doesn't represent a city-shaking threat--there were no assassination attempts against the major power structure or reckless destruction of property (excepting Myrin's magic storm after the revel scene, as previously noted). So it isn't necessarily clear why Elaith would even bother. If you waste your time on every random adventurer who comes breezing through town, you never get any real work done.
Thirdly, I have no idea if Elaith survived the spellplague or the 100 years since his last appearance. Remember, City of Splendors was set in the 1370s, and Downshadow is set in 1479. He might be dead, he might have retired and settled for a goodly long life with all his carefully amassed wealth and influence, or he might still be in the thick of it. It's open to speculation: some of the thugs may be working for Elaith in the novel--Lilten (Fayne's Patron) may even be Elaith's business partner or have succeeded him as a crimelord in the city (Lilten may be a little reminiscent of Elaith, but rest assured, they are *not* the same character; for one thing, Lilten is much, *much* older than Elaith). Point is, I don't know what's up with Elaith in 1479 FR, and I'd prefer Ed or Elaine to reveal that, rather than myself.
Fourthly, I consider Elaith a signature character of the aforementioned writers (E&E), and it is doubtful I would ever directly use him without express permission and deep consultation. Even then, he would only play a minor role in a novel written by me. This is simply because 1) I respect both Ed and Elaine very deeply, 2) I would be concerned about portraying him responsibly and accurately, and 3) devoted fans such as yourself would boil me in green slime if I got him wrong.
Cheers |
| Copper Elven Vampire |
Posted - 02 Dec 2009 : 02:30:59
Question... I find it completely unlikely that Elaith "The Serpent" Craulnober didn't know anything about the happenings in this book.
As you must know Erik, Elaith runs 75% of Waterdeep and it's underground. In the novel "City of Splendours" by Ed and Elaine, he ends up involving himself into the plot of the story just because Waterdeep is HIS city, and he'd rather run off all those he sees as a threat than suffer them a piece of how he likes his Waterdeep to be.
In the novel "Silverfall" he shows his face in the sewer tunnels at the very end and actually kills the one person that the seven sisters couldn't seem to put down themselves.... all in the name of HIS city and how he likes it to be.
Maybe in the next series or trilogy that continues this book you can elaborate on how this comes to be. Possibly chat with EC and EG and ask their advice on this outcome.
Your fan,
CEV |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 18:22:09
Hi Geok1ng, a couple of replies:
quote:
Originally posted by geok1ng
This is my first post here, i made the account just to express my disgust with page 268: "He'd helped with her toilet so that he didn't have to untie her. She'd nearly died of embarassement, but he'd just stared at her with the same bored expression until she yielded. Ther was nothing erotic about it."
And to make even clear to the readers that the author is being scatologycal for free in page 269 Rath ungags AND unties Myrin! Surely the last lawful evil( 4.e has destroied the LE concept) char on Toril should know better...
Firstly, I personally find it outside the realm of believability that characters can go through an entire book without ever having to relieve themselves, so I like to put in small, tasteful references (which I believe this is) to simple bodily functions as it's significant. As a writer, I am not going to avoid writing my story the way it needs to be written.
It is also pretty ambiguous: for all we know, Myrin's "toilet" could have been just washing her hands.
And the fact that I mention it is meant to bring out something about Myrin’s character—specifically, how she is a bit naïve in focusing on something that isn’t really an issue at all, whilst glossing over her really dire straits. This is something that real people do when placed in very dangerous situations--they focus on the small, personal things.
It is not meant to be offensive in any way, and there is no scatological humor about it or extremely inappropriate eroticism (even says so on the page cited). That said, I'm sorry it rubbed you the wrong way.
Secondly, as to your second point, I want to clarify that Rath very purposefully unties and ungags Myrin to prove a point: to wit, that she doesn't have the guts to do what is necessary to escape (i.e. kill him), so she might as well not try--thereby crushing her last vestige of self-confidence. This was my intention; Rath never makes stupid mistakes except when carried away by his anger at a situation. (One of his flaws.)
quote:
I have concerns with the Paladin Vigilante concept. Is it OK to be a Vigilante and defy Waterdeep laws every night on Downshadow, and still have Paladin status? I defend the right of a self proclaimed Paladin to kill evil people on combat, but he has NO LEGAL right to invade downshadow every night and demand surrender of the evil doers.
Well, he has as much legal right as any adventurer has to do anything in the name of "goodness" or "justice." The point is that for him, justice is more important than the law. But I digress. More on this point . . .
quote:
What would Shadowbane do if some bad guy simply gave up and said: Take me into custody! He has NO RIGHT to beat him senseless and drop him on the nearest Watch/Guard post- the bad guy is NOT resisting going to jail after all.
That’s an interesting question—I don’t think Shadowbane would attack an unarmed or helpless foe, unless he thought it was a trick. Probably Shadowbane would just leave him alone and go off to somewhere he is more needed (with enemies who fight back). Remember that he hesitated to attack a peaceable Rath when they first met. But more on this . . .
quote:
Vigilante and Paladin are "professions" that are usually at odds, and only a blind/deaf/smart god would keep a Paladin/Vigilante follower. Maybe after the spellplague debacle the idiots of the former House of Triad are starting to get real: it is hard to be good, and harder still to spread goodness.
Ah, there's the crux of it.
I think you hit the nail on the head with these questions (though the contempt is unnecessary). Basically, these sort of moral issues are exactly what I'm asking in the book, and these are exactly what you should be asking yourself as you read it. How far does one go to be "good" without losing what you believe in? And Shadowbane does have that extended period of doubt, where he has compromised his principles and loses his powers.
And why be coy? It's the Batman theme: a fundamentally good man walking a really fine line, doing what he sees as justice that won't be done otherwise. For Shadowbane, the Watch is powerless to fight the good fight, and so he does it himself. There's that whole scene later in the book that makes it clear that the Watch/Guard largely leaves Downshadow to itself--they only delve down to rescue an important priestess from the surface Waterdeep. Shadowbane is going where he feels that he's needed.
quote:
And after the 4-5th woman falls in love/desire with the hero i started thinking :this is a little bit too much for a scarred and broken-nosed "savior knight"!.
I'm sorry that didn't work for you. Shadowbane is indeed sort of a love-magnet, and I could have played that down a little--the point was to invest him with a strongly romantic nature without making him some sort of obnoxious fop (the literary trope, not the genre cliché).
Though if it makes you feel better, only one woman has a purposefully teenage-girl-type crush on him in the book (Myrin); one woman he had a relationship with in the past and there are still feelings there (the way you might have with an ex) though it is basically over (that's Rayse); and one woman seduces him and feels conflicted (Fayne). As for the rest of the women in the novel, there's some flirtation and significant glances going on, but the intention was to keep that appropriate to the tone of Waterdeep in specific, the Realms in general. And because I just like writing about women.
Sorry if you feel like I overdid it!
quote:
I couldnt avoid seeing Myrin as a new Shadril/spellfire wielder overpowered-realms-shaking char. Do we really need this kind of NPC? Isnt the new Zass Tham enough?
Well, I guess that's possible--at this point, we just don't know who or what Myrin is enough to say. I will say that it is too simple to look at Myrin as a world-shaker, power-player along the lines of the Chosen of Mystra or something of the sort. She does have a particular purpose and history, but she is really not any more powerful than another character of her level. Just as a weapon you cannot control isn’t really a weapon, “I cause chaos when I try to do too much” isn’t much of a class feature.
quote:
And Kalen needs more shaping to reach "Mister Cale- First of Mask" Dark/Anti-hero status, i am not even sure he has it: his first novel shows him at too high a power level for good char development
Hmm. I'm curious how he's "too high a power level"--as I wrote him, he's basically a mid-to-high heroic tier PC (in 4e terms). I didn't think I gave him all that much in terms of earth-shaking power--mostly, he's just a capable gymnast and sword-fighter, with your expected lay-on-hands ability. I think Kalen is roughly comparable in terms of power level to Erevis Cale (your example) when he first appeared. The analogy isn’t quite accurate, as the purposes behind Kalen and Erevis aren’t the same, just like Paul and I aren’t the same.
I guess I'm just not interested in telling the "farmboy rolls out of bed one morning and finds he has a destiny to save the world" sort of story. Instead, I started Kalen's story at a slightly more advanced stage--he's already built himself a fair ways through the toil of low-level power.
If you’re curious on this point, you might check out the companion story to Downshadow, which contains a very young Kalen from when this all began: "The Last Legend of Gedrin Shadowbane"
quote:
i wish the author good luck with Fox, the girl seens to have had a terrible spellplague time: not only she can not touch people but has become an uostarting waterdeep merchant, seens a fate far worse than death for a freedom loving adventurer young
I do hope to tell more of her story when I get the chance.
Cheers
|
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 17:38:06
I have several of my own non-WotC books that I'm writing on spec and trying to sell to publishers.
I have a short story which will be appearing in the Realms of the Dead anthology come January. Also, a bit of game design for them--I'm a contributing author in their Plane Above: Astral Sea sourcebook (April), and I have a DDI article coming out any time now: a writeup of the Eye of Justice, which is oddly listed as being by "Staff", even though it was written by Eytan and I, neither of us being actual staff members at WotC.
That said, I have no novels currently contracted with WotC. I'd love to write more, but they haven't come knocking as yet.
Cheers |
| Gang Falconhand |
Posted - 15 Oct 2009 : 13:40:43
I loved it. I've read Ghostwalker and Depths of Madness and this is by far my favourite of the three.
What're you working on next? :p
|
| geok1ng |
Posted - 08 Oct 2009 : 16:06:20
This is my first post here, i made the account just to express my disgust with page 268:
"He'd helped with her toilet so that he didn't have to untie her. She'd nearly died of embarassement, but he'd just stared at her with the same bored expression until she yielded. Ther was nothing erotic about it."
And to make even clear to the readers that the author is being scatologycal for free in page 269 Rath ungags AND unties Myrin! Surely the last lawful evil( 4.e has destroied the LE concept) char on Toril should know better...
I have concerns with the Paladin Vigilante concept. Is it OK to be a Vigilante and defy Waterdeep laws every night on Downshadow, and still have Paladin status? I defend the right of a self proclaimed Paladin to kill evil people on combat, but he has NO LEGAL right to invade downshadow every night and demand surrender of the evil doers. What would Shadowbane do if some bad guy simply gave up and said: Take me into custody! He has NO RIGHT to beat him senseless and drop him on the nearest Watch/Guard post- the bad guy is NOT resisting going to jail after all. Vigilante and Paladin are "professions" that are usually at odds, and only a blind/deaf/smart god would keep a Paladin/Vigilante follower. Maybe after the spellplague debacle the idiots of the former House of Triad are starting to get real: it is hard to be good, and harder still to spread goodness.
And after the 4-5th woman falls in love/desire with the hero i started thinking :this is a little bit too much for a scarred and broken-nosed "savior knight"!. On this topic i think what happens at "Corsair- Blades of The Moonsea" more in touch with reality- the hero saves a merchant lady from a band of pirates/reapers, and moments after riding with her in the lap he wakes up to cruel reality- the girl is terrified and scared, not sexually aroused...
I couldnt avoid seeing Myrin as a new Shadril/spellfire wielder overpowered-realms-shaking char. Do we really need this kind of NPC? Isnt the new Zass Tham enough?
To be fair with what is good on the novel: the dialogues between the 2 guardswomen are hilarious, the Fayne/Kalen stances are excellent. Its good to have humor and genious in text instead of overdrama and power: we already have our fair share of tragical, superpowered highlevel chars using mythical artifact swords with Raidon Kaine and Angul (boy, i love that sword, the best one since Lillacor).
Am i looking foward for a sequence? Not really- the only romance i would like to see is more Kalen- Rayse. Myrin is too insipid and realms-shaking for good romance material. And Kalen needs more shaping to reach "Mister Cale- First of Mask" Dark/Anti-hero status, i am not even sure he has it: his first novel shows him at too high a power level for good char development, but i wish the author good luck with Fox, the girl seens to have had a terrible spellplague time: not only she can not touch people but has become an uostarting waterdeep merchant, seens a fate far worse than death for a freedom loving adventurer young |
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