| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 02:15:41
No, I don't have any more advanced knowlage than anyone else. All I know is what I have read on the WOTC website, but I thought I would get the ball rolling for when this comes out and make this observation:
Anyone that frequents the WOTC Forgotten Realms boards is almost certainly going to see a massive amount of questions about Shadow magic and the Shadow Weave. Although its pretty simple, this seems to really mess with people. Just looking at the sample spells, it looks more or less like what I though, that there are going to be spells that are based on tapping the power of the Plane of Shadow, mainly illusion and the like. These are not automatically Shadow Weave spells, but the shadow weave would enhance the casting of them. Still, just the fact that the intro mentions FR and the Shadow Weave is going to be enough to derail many a gamers train of thought, at least I'm assuming.
BTW, does anyone make heads or tails of those extra descriptors at the top of the spells given in the sample. Quite honestly, I would rather not have a lot of extra esoteric terms pop up for what amounts to a sub system. Part of what turned me off of Incarnum was what felt like a deluge of new terminology, much of it fairly unintuitive as far as fitting in with established terms. |
| 27 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 16 Apr 2006 : 17:24:03
I know there is a sidebar that says that shadowcasters in the Realms draw from the Shadow Weave, but its such an off the cuff comment, I don't think that the author really even read about the Shadow Weave before they made the comment, and it just fuels the "Dark Side of the Weave" falsehood that has started to grow to epic proportions.
Even though normally one would take the most recent source, the most recent Realms source mentioning Shadow Magic was the FRCS, which stated that Shadow Magic (not to be confused with the Shadow Weave), draws on the weave like any other magic. I know its not official, but until some REALMSIAN author decides to put his foot down in a product and clearly deliniate this difference, thats what I am going for.
All of that aside, I loved this book. This book kind of restored my faith in WOTC's ability to come up with rulebooks with alternate magic, etc. I was not impressed with Magic of Incarnum, which I thought felt like something that would take some major reworking to get to fit into the setting, and it also felt like you lost a bit of understanding of it if you didn't use the races provided, which I hated.
On the other hand, all of these forms of magic definately seem like they could fit into the Realms and have been a part of it from the outset.
I do wish we had more Realmsian vestiges, but Karsus shows up, so its a start. I was going to introduce a Karsite villain as a foil to my Tunlar barbarian in my campaign, but that particular campaign is up in the air right now, but the idea is still there. I also liked the Tenebrous plot threads still hanging around D&D in general.
Shadow Magic is not actually something I would picture the Princes of Shade, or the elite arcanists using. I picture them as being too arrogant to use this form of magic, and them using the tried and true forms of magic them have mastered from the "old days," just using Shar's power to keep what they are up to from Mystra and her followers.
In fact, I picutued the Krinth rebels, and some younger shadovar, as being the ones that would be interested in Shadow Magic, as presented in this book. We have hints of politics within the city of Shade in a few places, but in the novels and major events we only really see Shade as a united front, and this got my imagination going down this path.
I like Truename magic, and my stepson wants to play a truenamer. Yes, personal truenames are a pain for DC, but the area and object truenames aren't that bad. For the record, I think, if I calculated properly, you would have to make 18 DC 91 truename research checks, and spend at least a 1000 gp per check, and have an adequate library, to find out Elminster truename. I think by the time you got to the 17th check, someone would notice what you were up to.
I think I would also give the Chosen of a god the obscure truename and truename backlash feats, just to represent the problems finding out something this personal about a Chosen of a given deity. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 21:45:26
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
This section could prove very interesting with some more realms specific vestiges. It would be an interesting way to have dead gods recurring without someone having to be their priest. For instance, Leira, Mellifleur, Tyche, Iyachtu Xvim, possibly some of the Mulhorandi and Untheric deities, Tchazzar, even some deities maybe from the Rus. There was also the novel series about the shadowking (think that was it), perhaps the shadowking can be summoned as a vestige.
I was thinking about this the other day; Xvim would make a perfect vestige. I've got to look over the rules and lore again when I'm not gone, however. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 21:12:34
Ok, someone already covered "what" pact magic is (i.e. binding entities outside the normal "universe" to you through pacts... the description makes you think these entities may be trapped in the far realm or something like it. One specifically states it is from the far realm in fact). Pact magic has a feel very much like incarnum (for those that bought magic of incarnum). It reminds me a lot of a totemist, but a totemist binds spirits of creatures whereas binders actually interact and make contracts with semi-sentient beings. What is interesting is that if you fail your pact they can seize control over you in a limited way. Basically the "vestiges" are willing to make a binding pact to aid you by providing magical ability. In return they get a limited feeling of what its like to be a part of the world again. Most of the "vestiges" are very dark, and there are several which were probably very "light" when they died but have gone insane being where they are.
I really liked this section, and I will be introducing it to my campaign. How well does it fit in the realms? Well, several of the vestiges are from the realms, but I think the names may be altered. For instance, the obvious one is Karsus. However, there is also a deity known as Amon who is without a doubt Amaunator (he's a god of light and justice who died due to lack of worshippers?? That's Amaunator) and who won't bind with you if you are bound with some others (Karsus is one). I'm looking for who these others are (mind, I'm working from memory), as I'm thinking they're all realmsian. One is some kind of spider named Chupoclops who hunted elves or ghosts on the ethereal plane (I want to say this one is in maybe Powers & Pantheons??). I want to say this may be the elf eater mentioned in (guessing here) back in Faiths and Avatars (where I think they also did Kezef the Chaos Hound and Dendar the Night Serpent). Another was Laraje who was an elf goddess of archers whom Lolth said was a better archer than Corellon, then Corellon challenges Laraje to see who can hit Laraje's heart with an arrow quicker.. and through some great shooting, Laraje actually kills herself but wins the contest (I'm thinking Evermeet novel beginning may cover some of this? I think Lolth had another name and maybe it was even Laraje). I want to say Tenebrous was another that wouldn't work with Amon, and they specifically mention that this being IS the leftover essence of the time while Orcus was trying to attain godhood after Kiaransalee murdered him before returning to his demon form as Orcus (which wasn't realms specific, but is realms canon).
This section could prove very interesting with some more realms specific vestiges. It would be an interesting way to have dead gods recurring without someone having to be their priest. For instance, Leira, Mellifleur, Tyche, Iyachtu Xvim, possibly some of the Mulhorandi and Untheric deities, Tchazzar, even some deities maybe from the Rus. There was also the novel series about the shadowking (think that was it), perhaps the shadowking can be summoned as a vestige.
In all, I really found the pact magic section very interesting. I think with a little more work WotC could have mixed the binder and the totemist into one more in-depth class. However, by keeping them separate, you have totemist who are a more barbaric type of caster and you have binders who are more sinister. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 20:26:08
Ok, just got my copy of this book. I've read through the pact magic section and the shadowcaster sections. So far I've barely skimmed the truename magic, but I have to agree with another reviewer... the DC's would rise very quickly (however, being skill-based, you probably could get magic items to give +5 or +10 to your truename skill.... of course, I would only say that if there's a prestige class that allows you to combine your truename caster levels and your arcane or divine casting... and I'm not that far in that section)
Of the other sections... the shadowcaster section repeatedly tells you are on the road to the most powerful thing there is. However, the spells just don't support this. It would be interesting to make a noctumancer (wizard/shadowcaster) or even a mystic theurge using shadowcaster as the arcane class, but as a class unto itself, I don't think I'd ever choose it. What is kind of nice is that once you learn to cast your 4th lvl "spells" all your 3rd lvl and under no longer require somatic components. This happens again at 7th lvl (you can cast 6th lvl and under with no arcane spell failure chance). Therefore, if you don't mind taking your arcane spell failure chance only on your upper level stuff you could run around in some heavy armor (blended quartz full plate with a mithril large shield for instance if you did a mystic theurge priest of Shar pops in my head).
I'll go into the pact magic stuff in another post, as I don't want this to time out on me.
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
| Arivia |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 02:41:02
quote:
Originally posted by Waldham
Functionning as an arcane spell, it's not an arcane spell, no ?
Correct. A karsite likely could use mysteries.
quote:
Can the shadowcaster on Toril draw directly from the Plane of Shadow ?
Realmsian shadowcasters do draw from the Shadow Weave; however, Shar cannot block users of the Shadow Weave, IIRC, from things Ed's said recently.
quote:
And so don't the shadowcaster need the feat for the shadow weave, neither lose in Wisdom to use this shadow magic ?
Correct. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 00:09:08
I found this question free-floating in the ethers... It seems to be about this book, so I'm moving it here.
quote:
Originally posted by Waldham
Hello, Mister Matthew Sernett, Ari Marmell, David Noonan, Robert J. Schwalb
quote:
Spellcasting inability : A karsite cannot cast arcane or divine spells, even if he takes level in a class that grants spellcasting ability. He can use spel-like abilities, psionic powers, and magic itemps normally.
quote:
When you are capable of casting only apprentice mysteries, you cast them as though they were arcane spells.
quote:
_ Can be cast once per day if functioning as an arcane spell, ...
Functionning as an arcane spell, it's not an arcane spell, no ?
quote:
Levels in shadowcaster do not qualitfy a character for prestiges classes with the folllowing entry requirements :
...
_ Ability to cast spells of X level where the type (arcane or divine) is specified.
With this above ? If a shadowcaster don't qualify for this requirement, it's that aren't arcane spells, no ?
Or perhaps with favored mystery feat.
Can a karsite become a shadowcaster or not and use the mysteries ?
quote:
Those few who truly understand it, such as shadow magic casters, use the Shadow Weave as a source for their power, drawing on it the way shadow mages of other worlds draw directly from the Plane of Shadow.
Can the shadowcaster on Toril draw directly from the Plane of Shadow ?
The magic of a shadowcaster is neither arcane, neither divine.
So, can Shar prevent the shadowcaster to use their magic ?
And so don't the shadowcaster need the feat for the shadow weave, neither lose in Wisdom to use this shadow magic ?
Thanks for your future answer.
|
| warlockco |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 07:40:25
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Don't care for the new race they introduced with the Pact Magic stuff.
I haven't picked up the tome myself... I'm not sure I will.
But what can you tell me about this new race?
Karsite
Humanoid (Human) yes another human sub-species
+2 Con, +2 Cha
DR 5/Magic
Ability to temporary drain the magic from armor, shield, and weapons for 1 round at a time, this is part of a melee attack.
Spell Resistance, and Healing from any spells that their SR repels.
LA +2
An Anti-Magic Race.
They can't wield ANY Magic.
They are supposed to be a legacy of Karsus' bid for godhood. They pop up randomly among the human population, but breed true with each other.
The write-up is generic though, just like all mention of Karsus in Tome of Magic is generic. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 03:20:28
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
Don't care for the new race they introduced with the Pact Magic stuff.
I haven't picked up the tome myself... I'm not sure I will.
But what can you tell me about this new race?
|
| warlockco |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 02:11:44
Don't care for the new race they introduced with the Pact Magic stuff.
But the fact that Karsus is used is really neat though. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 02:10:26
I think its pretty neat how a spellcaster can convert their previous caster class to Shadowcaster over time. |
| Volo |
Posted - 20 Mar 2006 : 10:44:01
I'm the last person who should answer questions on class power. My favourite prestige class ever is the Candlecaster. I don't care that they're heavily underpowered. They're cool! |
| biomante |
Posted - 19 Mar 2006 : 18:40:29
I was wondering if WOTC is planning to release any material that supports the possible connection (web enhancements, Dragon articles, supplements, etc.) of this kind of shadow magic and groups in the Realms like the Shades and the Jaezred Chaulssin. Any answer from a designer/employee/etc. is going to be really appreciated.
PS: Another thing, any opinions on the Shadowcaster?, I like it a lot, but as some persons in the WOTC forums I think that the class might be underpowered somehow. What do you think?
|
| Sarta |
Posted - 19 Mar 2006 : 11:38:20
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
::hopes the 'loths will also get some treatment as well::
Here, here, they've always gotten the short end of the stick compared to demons and devils... err tanari and baatezu. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 19 Mar 2006 : 08:16:47
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Woo Hoo! 2?! Well that pleases me very greatly! Seems like this is not only WotC's year of the Dragon but the year for all things that start with "D"! 
::hopes the 'loths will also get some treatment as well::
|
| Mr. Wilson |
Posted - 19 Mar 2006 : 06:32:27
Two?!?! That makes my night. |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 18 Mar 2006 : 09:46:54
Woo Hoo! 2?! Well that pleases me very greatly! Seems like this is not only WotC's year of the Dragon but the year for all things that start with "D"! |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 18 Mar 2006 : 02:05:04
JK, I'm nowhere near my BOOK OF VILE DARKNESS and BOOK OF EXALTED DEEDS right now, but I'm thinking a * little * about what you seek is in their pages.
As for the summoning the nasties, there should be not one, but two FIENDISH CODEX volumes coming out from WotC this year, the first one in just a couple of months.
love,
THO |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 18 Mar 2006 : 00:10:44
Thanks for a detailed summary, Jindael.
I have a character (whose possible afterlife fate should he die in the Realms is still in doubt), who is a Renaissance Italian Catholic humanist Hermetic mage. (Thank you, A Mighty Fortress!). Looking through PoF I started wondering about summoning and binding Good entities, not demons and devils (or baatezu and ta'anari). What products can folks reccomend which discuss in detail summoning Good entities? Evil summoning is dealt with in Mongoose's Encyclopaedia Arcana, AEG's Evil, Chaosium's Dragon Lords of Melnibone, and quite a few other books, but summoning Good entities and ordering them around? ... Next to nothing. Directory assistance, please!
|
| Jindael |
Posted - 17 Mar 2006 : 14:31:48
My review is based on a quick breeze through of the book, not an in-depth study.
Pact Magic:
I was biased towards pact magic to begin with, because I’ve always liked this style of gaining power for a PC, but it’s always been geared towards demons and other evil stuff, and there hasn’t been a good, solid system for this in the past. Pact magic is a great system, and I seriously dig the flavor.
The basic upshot is that you summon a vestige (A vestige is a fragment of a soul, either mortal or divine, that hasn’t gone to a proper resting place), then you make a pact with it. The pact is made with a simple dice roll. Even if you fail, you get the powers granted from the vestige, but you suffer some of the vestige’s personality.
Each vestige comes with a list of powers, and you get all of them. Some of the vestige’s powers are simply duplicated abilities of other classes; some are just powers grouped together under the rough idea of the vestige. Of course, as you gain levels, you can access more powerful vestiges, as well as host multiple vestiges.
Karsus is a vestige. However, unlike most of the other vestiges (which have a very strong Greyhawk flavor), Karsus doesn’t even get a nod towards the Realms. There is even a template in the Pact magic section called “Karsite” or something like that, which means you are a descendant of Karsus, (It’s a pretty nice template too) but it also lacks any realms flavor at all. Only the name Karsus is any indicator.
During the reading of the class, they state many times that Binding magic is a way to allows players to make pacts with otherworldly beings, but in a way that allows hero’s to access it, rather than just nasty demon traffickers. That said, the book goes on to tell you that Binder’s are pretty much feared and despised, and tends to want to lean you towards evil anyway. Most of the vestiges are some pretty nasty work, and hardly the benign granter of powers that I was hoping for. There is even a prestige class in the book based around hunting down and killing Binders.
Of note, there is a small feat tree that allows folks who aren’t a Binder to bind a vestige to them. The power level is much lower, but it’s a great flavor feat, and gives a character an interesting bonus (or two, depending on if you pursue the feat tree.)
I like the Binder a lot, but I’m disappointed in the forced evil factor that comes along with it. I’m working on a series of feats for worshippers of Shar right now, but when I’m done, I might just turn my attention to providing some more Realms-ish vestiges.
Shadow Magic.
Shadow Magic is cool. It’s very obvious that the designers wanted the shadow mage to be cool, like matrix cool, and they succeeded. This isn’t a bad thing (think Walker from Ghostwalker ) and it does give the class some appeal.
The mechanics of the class, in short, are similar enough to regular arcane casting so that it won’t really be a problem getting used to the class, but different enough so that it will really feel like you are doing something new and original. Plus, the class gives you a few features that allows your character to stand out. (Such as; as you advance in levels, you gather your sustenance from the Plane of Shadows, and need to eat and sleep less.)
The spells that a Shadowcaster casts, called Mysteries, are pretty decent. The book explains that they aren’t up to par on damage dealing with your average wizard as far as mass combat, but more suited to one-on-one encounters. With a brief look, I’ve found this to be mostly true.
Shadow magic follows what are called “Paths”. You can choose to follow a path to gain higher powered effects from it, or you can spread your powers around with the lower level Mysteries from multiple paths. As an interesting feature, if you don’t follow paths to the higher levels, and end up with more apprentice Mysteries, you get more bonus feats, presumably to make up for the lost power.
Shadowmagic stems from the plane of Shadow. It can exist side by side with the Shadow weave with no conflicts at all. However, a user of the Shadow Weave (Someone with the feat) will find his powers enhanced. They dovetail nicely. It’s still totally possible to be a good aligned Shadowcaster though, and not automatically fall under the influence of Shar. The book only provides a very brief sidebar on the Shadow weave, and it doesn’t really explain much except that there is one.
While the benefits of being a high level Shadowcaster are very nice, the class almost screams to be multiclassed with a rogue. An interesting multiclassing feature of the Shadow mage is “The Creeping Darkness”. Basiclly, you can swap existing wizard or Sorcerer levels for Shadowcaster levels. ( A wiz 3/Shadow 3 gets the XP to get to the next level. They can become wiz 3/ shadow 4, or Wiz 2/ Shadow 5.)
Truename Magic.
This is based on a very brief view of the section of the book. I might be wrong in a few things, and I kind of hope that I am.
The most obvious thing about Truename magic, to me, is that it’s pretty much useless as written. The DC’s are set so amazingly high that becoming a Truename magic user is pretty much only useful at first level. Afterwards the DC’s start to soar, and at 10th level, when you are fighting that big boss you have been chasing all across the Sword Coast, you’re useless. DC’s are set from CR x 2, with a huge host of variables, most of which seem to add to the difficulty.
Assuming that can be fixed (or perhaps I’ve missed something) Truename magic is interesting. It’s probably the most directly powerful magic system presented in the Tome of Magic. Spells are cast with a DC rather than spell slots. The more you cast the same spell in one day, the higher the DC. Aside from that, I didn’t notice a limit on spells per day. I’ve always liked that form of spell casting, instead of the Vancian system.
There is a system of scaling types of Truename magic that you gain access to as you advance in levels, going up the 3 tiers in terms of power.
I’m sort of halfway in the door with this one. I’m hoping that I’ve misread the mechanics somewhere and the class isn’t as broken as it seems. Otherwise a Truename user would not only have to have max casting stats, but also a host of magic items and feats that added to their skill and Intelligence score just to get more than a 15% success rate.
Other Stuff:
Each section of magic has its own prestige classes, magic items, unique organizations and some page consuming “daily life of-“ stuff. I generally skipped over these for now, focusing more on the core concepts and classes presented.
The book is a useful addition to D&D as a whole, and most of the concepts can easily be added to the Realms without to much difficulty. Most would be so subtle and rare, that there wouldn’t really be much in the way of formalized schooling for these types of magic. They all could have easily existed along side standard magic for thousands of years and just not been really noticed.
|
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 08:59:58
I really like Truename Magic. It's taking me some time to wrap my mind around Pact Magic. I need to read Shadow Magic more in depth to see what it's all about. Truename magic is the one I think adds the greatest dimension to a game. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 15 Mar 2006 : 05:56:24
Other notes from Tome of Magic: page 139 has a table that supersedes table 8-1 in the DMG; page 140 has a new condition(immobilized); pages 164-165 reprint the update to the incorporeal subtype from the MMIII.
Pact Magic: Haven't read it yet.
Shadow Magic: Good stuff; the low amount of mysteries almost sort of works in the favor of its flavor, so to speak.
Truename Magic: Fundamentally broken; read the description of the skill on pages 195-196 and do a bit of math. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 20:09:52
Have it now, but it will have to take a back seat to Power of Faerun. One of the girls that works at the LGS said the Truename stuff is one of the best parts to her. |
| Arivia |
Posted - 14 Mar 2006 : 17:04:48
Just got this book today; looking at it, I think to avoid confusing it with the 2e Tome of Magic, I'm going to have to call it the Neapolitan book. Additionally, I hope the Karsus content in this tome doesn't become Realms canon; for one thing, there's a very disappointing explanation of heavy magic. On the other hand, this book has the best graphic design I've seen in a WotC release; I'd only possibly place the Great White Book for Nobilis ahead of it in terms of graphic design for roleplaying game books, period.
EDIT: There's a clarification to an interaction between magic items and swift/immediate actions in the version of that sidebar included in Tome of Magic; I don't believe we've seen that note before.</rulesnitpickery> |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 10:51:42
Ironically I got my Dragon Magazine and started reading it after I posted this, and it has a preview of Pact Magic in it. While it doesn't explain a whole lot, it does seem kinda interesting, and I must admit, anytime my first thought is to try and start making up Realms specific "vestiges" it must be fairly consistant with what I can shift into the Realms (especially given no matter how many times I read things in Magic of Incarnum I just couldn't make a Realms conneciton in my mind). |
| Arivia |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 03:39:56
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
In a roundabout way, do the systems fit fairly well within the standard D&D 3.5 convention? In other words, is is more of a slight detour to use them than a large sub-system bolted on?
We've been told that they are supplementary, not replacement systems like incarnum or psionics. Also, keep in mind that they're separate---seemingly, you can use one and not the others. Finally, I'd bet money on the binder and any class relating to truenames sharing more with the warlock than the wizard, and I'd bet even more money on the shadowcaster looking a lot more like a cleric than a wizard. I'd bet even more on it having an even greater resemblance to a psion. Now, play connect the dots and get to the next lesson of Arivia's Second-Guessing The Designers class.
(Note: I don't actually have any more information than you guys do, but I can deduce more from what's there so far. I'd also note that shadow magic looks the easiest to incorporate, while pact magic will be a bit harder[it'll feel about as out of place as a warlock], and truename magic looks to feel very tacked on.) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 03:01:50
Bah . . . I never did like dancing . . .
In a roundabout way, do the systems fit fairly well within the standard D&D 3.5 convention? In other words, is is more of a slight detour to use them than a large sub-system bolted on? |
| Arivia |
Posted - 10 Feb 2006 : 02:40:45
I'm going to avoid commenting on this too much, but from a look at the systems, I don't think the descriptors will be too much of a problem. And yes, I am doing the "I know things you don't" dance. Sort of. Just for fun. |
|
|
