| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 05:24:08
Hey all
Does a 'ring of wizardry' double your base spells, or does it double your spells after applying your INT modifier? Thanks in advance.
-- George Krashos
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 05:56:11
C'mon Beirnadri: treating this as an 'either, or' scenario is a logical fallacy because there is more than one position from which to consider whether magic item variants are good or bad.
1. If you are a gamer who is in to game world complexity and you enjoy cultural derivatives in game worlds because they reflect the widespread cultural diversity found in real life, than slight variations in magic items (amongst other things) is a good thing because it is a means to add an additional layer of depth to a campaign setting.
2. If you are a Game Designer, than your job is to maximize the page usage per book that you are writing. One way to do this is by making sure your customers doesn't feel cheated by your printing game mechanics that are redundant. There’s little value in printing a rule that the customer will just skip over because another rule in another book (that your customer likely owns) already covers it.
This is also true to some degree for DM’s, based on their player’s proclivities and playing styles. Why bother to create a new magic item when there’s already another item in the game that does the same thing, especially if your players aren’t likely to be interested in it because of this?
So way back in the beginning of the thread when I was considering whether a new magic item that granted additional spell slots was redundant or not, I was looking at the item from the position of #2 above because a game designer (George Krashos) started the thread and because I don’t care for unimaginative, redundant magic items (or game rules).
But as a gamer and a Realms Fan, I’m all for variations and am fortunate enough to DM for players who will ignore minor derivative magic items, but are very interested in variant items that are unusual enough to be unique in some way.
J. Grenemyer |
| Beirnadri Magranth |
Posted - 16 Nov 2005 : 15:47:25
very slight variations ARE derivatives and non-opitimizations.... so i dont get what SANISHIVER is trying to say... you either do or dont support these small changes! |
| tauster |
Posted - 16 Nov 2005 : 12:54:16
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
However, from strictly a game design perspective, a line has to be drawn when one is more or less presenting the same item/effect, but with a different name and slightly different function.
No point in paying good money to print 10,000 more copies of something already in print in another book (although with the average number of reprints lately in some WotC books, you’d think they have already abandoned that business philosophy. But I digress…)
very good point. I too wouldn´t like to buy a book in which 90% is only a slight variation of something I already bought! Somewhere in the old monster compendium- books was a sentence like "all stats presented here represent only averages. individual monsters can vary". I think that should apply to spells and items (and feats) too, and would solve the problem of diversity. |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 16 Nov 2005 : 07:11:13
Hi Tauster,
Good points there, and I agree RE: the depth of Realmsian history and the likelihood that many mages have -over time- probably created any of a hundred versions of basically the same item.
However, from strictly a game design perspective, a line has to be drawn when one is more or less presenting the same item/effect, but with a different name and slightly different function.
No point in paying good money to print 10,000 more copies of something already in print in another book (although with the average number of reprints lately in some WotC books, you’d think they have already abandoned that business philosophy. But I digress…)
But outside of writing new rules for game books, I'm totally for derivatives, variations and even "non-optimized" versions of any given magic item or spell. It just adds so much more flavor to a game world and really makes it more alive as a setting.
J. Grenemyer |
| tauster |
Posted - 14 Nov 2005 : 11:29:14
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
From a game mechanics perspective there are concerns with this. With Headbands of Intellect and Rings of Wizardry already in the game, is this new item redundant?
J. Grenemyer
just a quick comment to the aspect of redundancy:
I think redundancy of items and spells (and feats, btw...) is no argument against them, especially not in a world that is as complex and detailed as the Realms.
We have millenia of documented history (and even more undocumented era´s), and in each age there were thousands of wizards, clerics and other magic users busy researching those gimmicks. The probability that some of them travelled not the same routes of reasearch leading to a specific "target" (spell, item, etc.) is quite high. In fact, I don´t really see why two wizards who both wanted to build, say, a wand of fireball, should come up with wands using the same rules: both are individuals shaped by different experiences (and most probable of different levels, feat selections and other aspects of "out of character- rules"), different education and different preferencies.
The same goes for spells: perhaps one of them wanted a fireball version that had more penetrating power but didn´t have the need for a long spell range. For the other, the "umph" of the spell was sufficient but she wanted more control over the spells area of effect. Both researched slighly different versions of the spell, and constructed afterwards different wands.
That´s an example using a relatively simple magical item, but the same applies to the headband of intellect, imho.
In fact, "redundant" items can ad a lot of flavour to the "realmsian" atmosphere, if you add a little history on these items. |
| Antareana |
Posted - 14 Nov 2005 : 10:16:51
The only place I have seen such an "amulet of divinity" was when I played good ol' Neverwinter Nights. But maybe I just forgot something 
an Item that doubles your bonus spells for a specific spell level? What a nasty thing at epic levels... I know some crazy wizard I could never give one *grins*
it would be hard to compare its value for there is no upper limit of your intelligence/charisma modifier...
and hey, I just realized that a ring of wizardry has much more effect on a sorcerer, even if it is called of "wizardry" |
| Kes_Alanadel |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 14:45:46
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
No dramas re the hijacking at all. I like this kind of discussion. For the character who will be getting this stuff I'd already decided to create a "Necklace of Archwizardry" which basically has all the powers of a bunch of Pearls of Power (one for each spell level to the allowable maximum) + some other benefit which I haven't quite worked out yet ... So basically, this discussion is giving me more food for thought. Thanks to all.
-- George Krashos
Glad to know we aren't agravating, lol. Another idea that you might look at for inspriation is the Strand of Prayer Beads (pg 267 3.5 DMG). There are a several versions in the book, and I don't see why any of them couldn't be adapted to arcane instead of divine.
~Kes
*realizes her spelling is really bad this morning, went to fix it, and then realized that she couldn't* |
| warlockco |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 03:24:32
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
No dramas re the hijacking at all. I like this kind of discussion. For the character who will be getting this stuff I'd already decided to create a "Necklace of Archwizardry" which basically has all the powers of a bunch of Pearls of Power (one for each spell level to the allowable maximum) + some other benefit which I haven't quite worked out yet ... So basically, this discussion is giving me more food for thought. Thanks to all.
-- George Krashos
I know I want to see it once you get finished with it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 01:04:47
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
No dramas re the hijacking at all. I like this kind of discussion. For the character who will be getting this stuff I'd already decided to create a "Necklace of Archwizardry" which basically has all the powers of a bunch of Pearls of Power (one for each spell level to the allowable maximum) + some other benefit which I haven't quite worked out yet ... So basically, this discussion is giving me more food for thought. Thanks to all.
-- George Krashos
As for some other benefit... Some that come to mind: being able to ignore some component requirements so many times a day (I think you can cover all of them with feats), being able to recall a spell or several after casting it, doing more damage by spell or having a higher DC to resist it, offering magic resistance, applying any other metamagic feat not already mentioned... Just some ideas. I'd not do more than one or two of those suggestions, meself.  |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 00:13:53
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Kes_Alanadel
@ Warlockco...That's a really good idea that I like alot.
I'm fairly certain I posted it in the Magic Shop, but here it is:
Ring of Divinity: This special ring comes in four kinds (Ring of Divinity I, Ring of Divinity II, Ring of Divinity III, and Ring of Divinity IV), all of them useful only to divine spellcasters. The wearer’s divine spells per day are doubled for one specific spell level. A Ring of Divinity I doubles 1st level spells, a Ring of Divinity II doubles 2nd level spells, a Ring of Divinity III doubles 3rd level spells, and a Ring of Divinity IV doubles 4th level spells. Bonus spells from high ability scores are not doubled, nor are domain spells.
Source: DMG 3.5, modified Ring of Wizardry.
Moderate (Divinity I) or Strong (Divinity II–IV) (no school); CL 11th (I), 14th (II), 17th (III), 20th (IV); Forge Ring, Miracle; Price 20,000 gp (I), 40,000 gp (II), 70,000 gp (III), 100,000 gp (IV).
Im sure Ive seen something like that somewhere... Although Im pretty sure it was an Amulet |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 08 Nov 2005 : 00:11:44
No dramas re the hijacking at all. I like this kind of discussion. For the character who will be getting this stuff I'd already decided to create a "Necklace of Archwizardry" which basically has all the powers of a bunch of Pearls of Power (one for each spell level to the allowable maximum) + some other benefit which I haven't quite worked out yet ... So basically, this discussion is giving me more food for thought. Thanks to all.
-- George Krashos
|
| Kes_Alanadel |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 14:57:02
:) very very cool idea
And I appologize as well George....sorry about the hijacking |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 06:48:54
Hi Kes (and sorry to thread-hijack, George),
I'd guesstimate that such an item would be either an Epic Magic Item or a Minor Artifact, depending on whether the DM uses the Epic Rules in his or her campaign and wants to give a player an extra Epic Spell Slot, or doesn't use the Epic Rules and just wants to give a Very High Level (but non Epic) character in his game a bunch of extra spell slots.
What I like about the recent Realms Sourcebooks is that they give unique names and (sometimes) unique abilities to what would otherwise be "just another" magic item. Following this theme, I can imagine some of the nine Ioun stones for a particular Crown of the High Mage being given names by subsequent wearers after the stones were broken up, such that the stones develop a history all their own, independent of the Crown they were a part of.
I think it'd be an interesting campaign arc, in that a party questing to retrieve one of these ioun stones (for whatever reason) might naturally assume they are each a one of a kind item. But as the PCs quest to some perilous place like Myth Drannor (slaying devils, Zhents, Undead and worse, all while braving elven-made traps in typical adventurer fashion), they happen to discover that the stone they eventually find is part of a set, the full number of which is unknown. Maybe a Balenorn passes this knowledge on if it finds the PCs worthy, or something like that.
Anyway, since the stones are spread all over Faerûn, the PCs could be forced to switch gears if their quest led them to a place like Waterdeep, where through chance, spells and some information gathering they discover another stone. But this one is imbedded as a centerpiece in the jewelry of some wiser-than-ten-merchants, dowager-like head of an old blood noble household in the city, where said jewelry has been passed down for generations since the first male of that family line to make a name for himself took the item from the deceased body of an Illuskan Pirate some two centuries ago.
How best to ‘acquire’ this ioun stone? Assuming the normal “kick in the door, sword the beasties, take the treasure” routine is out of the question, do the PCs dare trying to stealth their way in to her noble estate to steal it instead? Or perhaps a daring theft by the PC Rogue during a Whaterdhavian gala/party that the noblewoman will be attending? Maybe some ‘convincing’ magic by the PC mage to help things along? Maybe risk identifying the true nature of the stone by offering to buy it from her outright? Or perhaps a lie that the stone is cursed?
Anyway, sorry to ramble. If I didn’t have to work and pay bills, I’d sit around writing adventure ideas all day.
J. Grenemyer |
| Kes_Alanadel |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 05:16:33
That is actually a very good idea Sanishiver. I really like the necklace idea....it maybe could be a minor artifact that allows those benefits? |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 04:42:01
quote:
Originally posted by Kes_Alanadel
I think that the various headbands of Intellect are meant to take care of this...
Yes, but indirectly.
Sure a mage is going to look to Headbands of Intellect first because of the spell slot boost and because they modify a key class ability score for Wizards.
The difference is that Headbands of Intellect work to modify Intelligence scores only, while what I'm thinking of is an item that looks at the intellectual capacity (read: Number of Bonus spell slots due to Intelligence) of an arcane caster and serves to specifically enhance that capacity (only) in some way.
From a game mechanics perspective there are concerns with this. With Headbands of Intellect and Rings of Wizardry already in the game, is this new item redundant?
More specifically, should this hypothetical item look at bonus spells before or after other Int-modifying effects are applied?
If before, would the extra bookkeeping by worth the hassle or serve to disrupt play?
If after, would the item just be too powerful? (As George pointed out, a caster with effectively double or triple the normal spell slots is a nasty foe.)
But consider that we already have Mystic Theurges running around with double the normal spell slots. So maybe the item isn’t as unbalanced as it might seem.
So, I think such an item should be in the form of an Ioun Stone, should effect spell slots **after** other Int-modifying items (and spells) are applied, and should be set to only effect a single spell level when created.
Thus a caster would need nine such stones (each more valuable if found and more expensive if created) to be able to augment all of his or her extra spell slots from Intelligence for each spell level. One benefit of this approach is that Dungeon Masters can hand out this ability without tipping the power scales in their game too drastically. Another is that making it necessary to craft nine such items will help to regulate how quickly PC mages with item creation feats can craft these items.
Additionally, a caster could create (or quest for) a necklace or tiara that serves to house nine such stones and grants the wearer each stones' power, with the added benefit that if all nine are placed within the jewelry item the wearer may then cast one more Epic Spell per day than normal (provided the wearer can cast Epic Spells).
I could imagine Elven High Mages crafting and wearing such an item during the Crown Wars, with subsequent elves (and adventurers) working to piece these items back together down the centuries.
Call it the Crown of the High Mage or something similar.
J. Grenemyer |
| Beirnadri Magranth |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 04:11:29
CHEAPEST ITEM EVER!------ naga crown... there are more than one of these items that gives you double all your caster levels...
a million times better than the rings of wizardry |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 04:03:54
Well, I guess we had better make the email game the best of all time - well, at least until your schedule allows for tabletop again!
C-Fb |
| Kes_Alanadel |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 02:37:19
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Hey Kes,
You'll find that Warlockco is full of some really cool gaming stuff. If you ever need to see some NPCs, check out his 3e stats for them - they've done wonders for my Menzoberranzan game.
C-Fb
I just may have to do that :). Unfortunately right now due to work and my kids' schedules, the only campaign I can be involved in is the email one (just turned down a tabletop..in my home..2 minutes ago..... ) |
| warlockco |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 00:36:27
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
Hey Kes,
You'll find that Warlockco is full of some really cool gaming stuff. If you ever need to see some NPCs, check out his 3e stats for them - they've done wonders for my Menzoberranzan game.
C-Fb
Thanks Cren, still very very slowing working on a Total Conversion to 3.5E for Daggerford using the Age of Worms conversion material and The North boxed set along with several other sources, but unfortunately that is well over 100 NPCs. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 00:34:31
Hey Kes,
You'll find that Warlockco is full of some really cool gaming stuff. If you ever need to see some NPCs, check out his 3e stats for them - they've done wonders for my Menzoberranzan game.
C-Fb |
| Kes_Alanadel |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 00:19:57
Thanks for posting that :) looks very very cool, and something I may have to use in a campaign. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 07 Nov 2005 : 00:11:31
quote:
Originally posted by Kes_Alanadel
@ Warlockco...That's a really good idea that I like alot.
I'm fairly certain I posted it in the Magic Shop, but here it is:
Ring of Divinity: This special ring comes in four kinds (Ring of Divinity I, Ring of Divinity II, Ring of Divinity III, and Ring of Divinity IV), all of them useful only to divine spellcasters. The wearer’s divine spells per day are doubled for one specific spell level. A Ring of Divinity I doubles 1st level spells, a Ring of Divinity II doubles 2nd level spells, a Ring of Divinity III doubles 3rd level spells, and a Ring of Divinity IV doubles 4th level spells. Bonus spells from high ability scores are not doubled, nor are domain spells.
Source: DMG 3.5, modified Ring of Wizardry.
Moderate (Divinity I) or Strong (Divinity II–IV) (no school); CL 11th (I), 14th (II), 17th (III), 20th (IV); Forge Ring, Miracle; Price 20,000 gp (I), 40,000 gp (II), 70,000 gp (III), 100,000 gp (IV).
|
| Kes_Alanadel |
Posted - 06 Nov 2005 : 23:25:19
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
I like the idea. Absolutely. But I would think that the rider would be that you can't wear it and a ring of wizardry for the same level of spells at the same time. I mean, someone waltzing around with 16 or so spells of a particular level is going to be nasty.
-- George Krashos
*powergamer mode* I'll take one of each ring for third level spells if they do stack. 
*/powergamer mode*
[quote]Originally posted by Sanishiver
It seems to me that there ought to be an item that doubles the extra spells you gain from intelligence.
I think that the various headbands of Intellect are meant to take care of this, since you can get more spells while wearing one.
@ Warlockco...That's a really good idea that I like alot. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 06 Nov 2005 : 23:12:24
I like the idea. Absolutely. But I would think that the rider would be that you can't wear it and a ring of wizardry for the same level of spells at the same time. I mean, someone waltzing around with 16 or so spells of a particular level is going to be nasty.
-- George Krashos
|
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 04 Nov 2005 : 03:20:41
It seems to me that there ought to be an item that doubles the extra spells you gain from intelligence.
I don't think such a thing would be an artifact, but instead a very expensive non-artifact item that's likely to have been crafted more than once in the Realms.
Whadya say George? ;) |
| warlockco |
Posted - 04 Nov 2005 : 03:05:24
quote:
Originally posted by Kes_Alanadel
Your welcome George :).
I wish the same thing Warlockco...I think I would play arcane spellcasters more often :D
I made a Ring of Divinity for my games, that is the same as a Ring of Wizardry, except it works for Divine Spellcasters. |
| Kes_Alanadel |
Posted - 04 Nov 2005 : 02:47:54
Your welcome George :).
I wish the same thing Warlockco...I think I would play arcane spellcasters more often :D |
| warlockco |
Posted - 04 Nov 2005 : 01:43:05
I wished it doubled spells after bonus spells were added in.  |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 22:58:21
Thanks. That's what you get for skim reading it and checking another item that gives the same benefit.
-- George Krashos
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| Kes_Alanadel |
Posted - 03 Nov 2005 : 05:34:08
just the base spells, the description specifically says that it does not double those from high intellengence or school specialization :)
~Kes |
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