| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 17:24:59
Yesterday, I saw the following from DriveThruRPG.com:
quote:
DriveThruRPG.com is ecstatic to announce that we have come to an arrangement with Wizards of the Coast to begin a trial run of new releases! Based on this trial we hope to expand our selection to their entire lineup!
Presented on our site for the first time - Dungeons & Dragons Frostburn
- Wizards' newest D&D release!
I wanted to get reactions from Candlekeep scribes on this development. If you follow the link, you'll see the PDF of Frostburn is available for $34.95.
Now, as someone with a career in information distribution, I'm happy to see that WOTC is making this offer. But, I'm not going to purchase the PDF. Moreover, I'm not even sure I would if it was a Realms product.
Thus, I wanted to see what other scribes thought and here are some questions to consider in any replies:
1. Would you purchase a PDF like this if it was for a newly released Realms product? If so or if not, why?
2. How do you think sales will go in this "trial run?"
Thanks to any for replying.
SB |
| 28 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| kahonen |
Posted - 08 Oct 2004 : 20:26:46
Sorry for the delayed response, I've been working away for a while and had restricted internet access.
Yes, it was an illegal site (hence the reason for not posting the link).
I was simply making the point that people will copy the books anyway but I can't understand why WOTC want to make it easier by selling ready made PDFs of the new books as they become available.
Incidentally, I've just had another look and both MM3 and Libris Mortis are available there. I don't think Libris Mortis has actually been released in the shops yet.
|
| The Wanderer |
Posted - 06 Oct 2004 : 15:13:01
quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
Also, there wil lalways be old school types that disdain online gaming, and even those that jsut prefer to have the books in their hands.
Agreed... Especially considering I AM one of those old foggies who prefer books to screen reading :D. (and I'm a computer scientist... go figure)
quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
Maybe in two more decades, then we might see more of a push for the abolition of tabletop gaming, but as is hte human mind outperforms any computer, and face to face interaction is just too much of a selling point.
I'm hoping by then they've come up with a nice tablet-like device which we can treat as a book. I don't think though that book will ever be replaced until they come up with a technology which uses passive light (versus a ray tube or LCD) to show text. Screens just hurt the eyes. |
| Lord Rad |
Posted - 06 Oct 2004 : 15:12:11
quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
No, tabletop gaming has too much of a following to be abolished within our lifetimes. Maybe when literally everyone can have and afford computers, then maybe, but that isn;'t happening any time soon.
Also, there wil lalways be old school types that disdain online gaming, and even those that jsut prefer to have the books in their hands.
Maybe in two more decades, then we might see more of a push for the abolition of tabletop gaming, but as is hte human mind outperforms any computer, and face to face interaction is just too much of a selling point.
Nevertheless, if WotC see PDFs as cheaper (which they obviously will be) and decide that they will no longer produce physical books, then thats what we will get. Thats not to say that tabletop gaming will be dead, just that you wont be able to get a physical PHB at the table, just a laptop with the PDF on or whatever. Its quite possible that it could go this way and theres nowt we can do 'bout it, regardless of all our "we want physical products, not PDF".... 'cos we know just how much WotC (or rather...Hasbro) pay attention to their customers! Pah!
::looks over to his soapbox to decide whether to keep it hidden:: |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 06 Oct 2004 : 15:03:34
No, tabletop gaming has too much of a following to disappear within our lifetimes. Maybe when literally everyone can have and afford computers, then maybe, but that isn't happening any time soon.
Also, there will always be old school types that disdain online gaming, and even those that just prefer to have the books in their hands.
Maybe in two more decades, then we might see more of a push for the abolition of tabletop gaming, but currently the human mind outperforms any computer, and face to face interaction is just too much of a selling point. |
| The Wanderer |
Posted - 06 Oct 2004 : 14:55:04
I just hope they don't fall into the same habit as the gaming industry in which the publish half working code and then offer the patches later on. Yes, we already get errata, but it coulod be SO much worse  |
| Lord Rad |
Posted - 06 Oct 2004 : 13:13:33
I'd expect that kahonens list is from an illegal site or some such as I can't imagine WotC making items such as the Eberron campaign book as a PDF download already.
This really concerns me.  This could spell the end of the Realms as we know it. If WotC finds PDF downloads to be quite successful and profitable then they could likely stop printing books altogether, which would save them huge amounts on printing costs and once the product has been developed and finalised, thats it. PDF download made available and end of story - watch the money roll in, pure profit.
That also eliminates distribution costs etc and will make the setting, and possibly the whole hobby, an online presence only.  
|
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 06 Oct 2004 : 11:23:08
quote:
Originally posted by kahonen
Cap'n Charlie I have to dispute your logic. I'd say having a good quality download is less likely to make you go out and buy the original.
Quite frankly, anyone that wants to download a copy of the books for free is going to be able to. That is not an isue, for someone WILL put them up for download.
So, if there is a nice version of the PDF floating around that happened to come from wizards, people will probably get that instead. If WOTC puts some extra pages in it that is only available in the download, or a couple ads, or something, the people downloading the book will get those too. In the end, if just one person buys the hardcopy book due to their releasing it electronically, that is one more than would have otherwise.
I maintain that if they want more people to buy the hardcopy books, put things in them that yo ucannot get fro ma pdf easily. Like maps, special character sheets, vouchers to send in for limited edition shiny fishbait, anything. Frostburn was going the right way, by having those tiles in the back, but they need to go farther. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 05 Oct 2004 : 23:12:53
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And to a lot of us, a download is nowhere near as satisfying as the hard copy. If the hard copy is available, I will never pay for a download.
Same. I'd rather have the hard copy. :) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Oct 2004 : 22:35:18
quote:
Originally posted by kahonen
I can't believe WOTC are crazy enough to do this. A quick look on 1 particular site lists the following:
WotC - d20 - Eberron Campaign Setting
WotC - d20 - Forgotten Realms - Serpent Kingdoms
WotC - d20 - Planar Handbook
WotC - d20 - Races of Stone
D&D 3.5 - Book of Exalted Deeds + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Complete Divine + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Complete Warrior + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Draconomicon + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Dungeon Master's Guide + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Expanded Psionics Handboomk + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Frostburn + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Miniatures Handbook + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Monster Manual + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Players Handbook + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Player's Guide To Faerun + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Unearthed Arcana + bookmarks
D&D 3E Core Rules + bookmarks
D&D Al-Qadim Campaign Books (all!)
Dungeons and Dragons - The Slayers Guides (24 books)
as being available for download. Frostburn is there already. All WOTC are doing is cutting out the middle man by saving someone having to sot at home and scan the hard copy into their computer.
Cap'n Charlie I have to dispute your logic. I'd say having a good quality download is less likely to make you go out and buy the original.
Was that a legal site?
And to a lot of us, a download is nowhere near as satisfying as the hard copy. If the hard copy is available, I will never pay for a download. |
| kahonen |
Posted - 05 Oct 2004 : 21:58:12
I can't believe WOTC are crazy enough to do this. A quick look on 1 particular site lists the following:
WotC - d20 - Eberron Campaign Setting
WotC - d20 - Forgotten Realms - Serpent Kingdoms
WotC - d20 - Planar Handbook
WotC - d20 - Races of Stone
D&D 3.5 - Book of Exalted Deeds + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Complete Divine + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Complete Warrior + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Draconomicon + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Dungeon Master's Guide + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Expanded Psionics Handboomk + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Frostburn + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Miniatures Handbook + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Monster Manual + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Players Handbook + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Player's Guide To Faerun + bookmarks
D&D 3.5 - Unearthed Arcana + bookmarks
D&D 3E Core Rules + bookmarks
D&D Al-Qadim Campaign Books (all!)
Dungeons and Dragons - The Slayers Guides (24 books)
as being available for download. Frostburn is there already. All WOTC are doing is cutting out the middle man by saving someone having to sot at home and scan the hard copy into their computer.
Cap'n Charlie I have to dispute your logic. I'd say having a good quality download is less likely to make you go out and buy the original. |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 27 Sep 2004 : 20:50:34
quote:
Originally posted by Strahd Von Zarovich
By putting something like that in electronic format, it is begging for it to be distributed in some peer to peer system. And that would have a bad effect on Sales in general.
It has my understanding that home scanned pdfs of the books are available on p2p within the week, and sometimes within the day. Spo I doubt that we are going to see a spike in sharing, this might just make the version being tossed about a higher quality one, hopefully enticing them to buy the original.
*says the optimist* |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 27 Sep 2004 : 16:39:26
quote:
Originally posted by Strahd Von Zarovich
By putting something like that in electronic format, it is begging for it to be distributed in some peer to peer system. And that would have a bad effect on Sales in general.
I'd be curious to know if anyone who has purchased the PDF or seen commments from someone who did, has WOTC taken any security steps to address this issue? |
| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 27 Sep 2004 : 16:30:57
Loreseekers, I don't think this is the end of printed WotC books... WotC is probably just making an experiment to see how much profit can be made with PDF sales over and beyond regular purchases of a given book. They're trying to see how profitable that particular market segment is. And what better product to try this than a "Core of the Month" meh-whatever product like Frostburn?
I fully agree that this will result in a lot of file sharing, especially outside the U.S. where not every aspects of life are regulated. 
But then again, I don't think it will result in MORE file-sharing, because people who file-share just do it out of financial limitations (mainly University students, I have noticed) and I don't foresee this segment of the population to grow so much as to make a difference in WotC's sales... |
| Strahd Von Zarovich |
Posted - 27 Sep 2004 : 09:56:53
I think this is ludicrous of WotC to agree to something like this with newly released books.
By putting something like that in electronic format, it is begging for it to be distributed in some peer to peer system. And that would have a bad effect on Sales in general.
There is nothing better than sitting down with your new tomes and flicking through those pages!!
PDF? BAH!!
What next D&D 4.0 Audio Books in MP3??!
Regards
Strahd Von Zarovich |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Sep 2004 : 08:03:29
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
You'll take a quick flip through judgment on the product's quality rather than the words from some wise scribe here at Candlekeep like....well, not me, but I'm sure someone else would do.
Wise scribes? Where? I've not seen any of those around here! 
Truly, the comments made by others on here are a factor, as well. I'd neglected to mention that one. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 27 Sep 2004 : 05:10:04
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As for future products... Serpent Kingdoms impressed me. I will go to my FLGS when The Shining South comes out, and I will flip thru this tome. If the quality appears to be as good as SK, and it is reasonably priced, then I will pick it up on the spot. Otherwise, to eBay I will go, to spend the amount I feel the product is really worth.
You'll take a quick flip through judgment on the product's quality rather than the words from some wise scribe here at Candlekeep like....well, not me, but I'm sure someone else would do. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Sep 2004 : 03:49:40
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Wooly,quote:
Though it's been a few years, I still recall buying a new boxed set, with maps and cardstock sheets, for $20. Now we're getting the same amount of info, no removable maps or extra goodies, and we're paying almost twice as much. All we're getting that's better is the hard cover.
The early-1990s inch-thick boxed sets contained about 176 black & white pages and a few mapsheets, and cost $20 circa 1993, which is $26 in 2004 (the larger boxed sets were $30, now $39). Now for $30 you get 192 full-colour pages. The new books are not worse value, even though we're given to understand TSR lost money on those boxed sets.quote:
I get a lot of my gaming stuff for less than cover price, usually thru eBay. I do not think that many of the books have been worth the cover price.
That's just the problem the publishing industry is in: people undervalue books, which causes authors and editors to be underpaid, and moreso in the RPG industry. [Edit:] Sorry, that was my knee jerking. Even so, with modern discounts, I think even a D&D book you like half of is fairly priced.
Faraer, here's the thing: when I was spending that money on the boxed sets, 95% of the time, I felt I was getting my money's worth. Black and white pages? No big deal -- the text was what was important. I had full color on the maps and cardstock sheets, and that was more than sufficient. The parchment-looking pages are a nice touch, but given a choice, I'd not pay extra for them.
Then, as now, artwork was utterly not important to me. I don't need artwork of characters that doesn't match the description, I don't need to see some random guy walking down a street, I don't need to see an example of a character with yet another prestige class -- I don't need any of that. Give me a nice balance of much lore and a bit of new crunch, and I'm a happy camper.
What I care about is feeling like I got my money's worth out of a product. Until Serpent Kingdoms, that feeling wasn't there. To me, liking only half of the material is not enough to justify the cover price. I should like at least 75% of it, and +90% is ideal. Paying $30 for $15 of material is not, to me, a good deal.
Okay, so I use eBay. Is WotC losing money because of that? No. If I'm don't think something is worth the price, then the money stays in my pocket -- the sale not made is when money is lost. If, on the other hand, I find that product being sold by someone else who was willing to spend WotC's asking price, then WotC is getting the money they wanted for the product -- it's just not coming from me.
All I want is to know I'm getting quality product for my gaming dollar. There's not as many gaming dollars there as I should like, so I want to make sure each is well spent.
As for future products... Serpent Kingdoms impressed me. I will go to my FLGS when The Shining South comes out, and I will flip thru this tome. If the quality appears to be as good as SK, and it is reasonably priced, then I will pick it up on the spot. Otherwise, to eBay I will go, to spend the amount I feel the product is really worth. |
| Valdar Oakensong |
Posted - 26 Sep 2004 : 22:51:58
HELL NO, books are wonderful things, it's bad enough that so many kids don't read books, and a hobby that is book based starts to put stuff on the internet. No way it can't happen. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 25 Sep 2004 : 23:30:48
Wooly,quote:
Though it's been a few years, I still recall buying a new boxed set, with maps and cardstock sheets, for $20. Now we're getting the same amount of info, no removable maps or extra goodies, and we're paying almost twice as much. All we're getting that's better is the hard cover.
The early-1990s inch-thick boxed sets contained about 176 black & white pages and a few mapsheets, and cost $20 circa 1993, which is $26 in 2004 (the larger boxed sets were $30, now $39). Now for $30 you get 192 full-colour pages. The new books are not worse value, even though we're given to understand TSR lost money on those boxed sets.quote:
I get a lot of my gaming stuff for less than cover price, usually thru eBay. I do not think that many of the books have been worth the cover price.
That's just the problem the publishing industry is in: people undervalue books, which causes authors and editors to be underpaid, and moreso in the RPG industry. [Edit:] Sorry, that was my knee jerking. Even so, with modern discounts, I think even a D&D book you like half of is fairly priced. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 25 Sep 2004 : 17:08:25
quote:
Originally posted by Lord Rad
Part of me believes this to be some kind of joke. WotC allowing PDF's of new products? Surely not! And at the price of which the physical copy costs?
One conspiracy theory I've read on another site, states that WOTC is deliberating setting this "arrangement" up for failure with the listed price. That way, when the PDFs don't sell they can say, "Hey, we tried, see no one wants to buy electronic versions."
And I did not state I believe it, I'm just passing along the magic bullet theory that I heard. |
| Brother Ezra |
Posted - 25 Sep 2004 : 14:51:15
Personally, I would not purchase the electronic copy at the same price as the printed version. I use my laptop extensively during games, and find it very helpful, but truthfully it becomes cumbersome having too many electronic documents open at one time. If I have the SRD, my java spell and skill database, a scanned version of the current adventure's maps, and the campaign notes all open at the same time, that's about as much as my poor brain can handle at one time. All of the above are used throughout a gaming session, whereas a source book like Frostburn may be referred to once, if at all. For those purposes, I'd rather have the printed version.
Also, since I'm getting older, reading text on a computer tends to be much harder on my eyes than reading a printed book. I like to read whenever I can, so my reading material needs to be portable. Electronic sourcebooks are useful, but are limited in portability. I can't read an electronic document while I'm commuting on a crowded subway, for instance (I don't have a PDA yet. Christmas, maybe...). A book works much better in such circumstances.
Normally, I'll burn the electronic version of a sourcebook onto a disk and bring it over to Kinko's, who will print and bind the document for between $15.00-$25.00. This way I have the source in both electronic and hard copy for about the same price as the MSRP of the printed book.
I think that WotC's strategy for pricing the electronic version of Frostburn at the same price as the printed version is flawed. For me, I'd end up spending almost twice as much to purchase the electronic version, since I'd want to print it out and bind it. Two possibilities for the rationale of this strategy spring to mind:
1. WotC does not understand the functionality of electronic products, and how their core market uses them. They think that the electronic document is the same as the printed document, has the same information regardless of its format, and therefore should have the same appeal and same price.
2. WotC wants to increase the appeal of their printed products, and therefore discourages purchase of the electronic format by pricing it the same as the printed version, knowing full well that the printed product will be the preferred choice of their target market. 
I hope that #1 is really the case, and we can look forward to lower-priced electronic versions of WotC products in the future. |
| Lord Rad |
Posted - 25 Sep 2004 : 10:45:11
Absolutely ridiculous!
At that price!!? 
Part of me believes this to be some kind of joke. WotC allowing PDF's of new products? Surely not! And at the price of which the physical copy costs? Nah.
Theres nothing like the real thing, being able to thumb through a book. |
| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 21:15:40
quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
Final Verdict: I would pay 1/4 of coverprice for a searchable/copy pastable PDF of a sourcebook, or an additional $5 for it along with my hardcopy version.
That's actually an excellent idea. I wouldn't mind having a PDF copy along with a print copy as I could copy/paste something into my notes very easily. But, I'm not paying full price just for that option.
I'd be curious to see how sales are going for this PDF item.
Moreover, what is the quality like? If I pay $34.95 for a PDF copy of this product, I'd expect high quality that would allow me to print out a page on my printer that looked like it came right out of a print product. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 20:14:33
quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
As such(with the rising prices) I have not bought a book at cover price for well over a year. I also do not plan to any time soon, either.
Seeing books released in such a format(electronic) for the same cost as those with an actual(in my opinion) cost seems disingenious, and is a bit disheartening.
I quite agree. I get a lot of my gaming stuff for less than cover price, usually thru eBay. I do not think that many of the books have been worth the cover price. Though it's been a few years, I still recall buying a new boxed set, with maps and cardstock sheets, for $20. Now we're getting the same amount of info, no removable maps or extra goodies, and we're paying almost twice as much. All we're getting that's better is the hard cover.
quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
Now, all that said, I might very well consider their book worth cover price(and very possibly pay that price for it) if it came with a CD, or perhaps certificate for a CD that I mail in for at a later date, containing a PDF(with copy pastable/searchable text) and bonus features like stuff that the authors wanted in but they had neither space for in the book, or room for on their website( ), maybe a few author interviews, and maybe even a PDF or two of an old 2e book over a similiar area/goal(like putting hte OLD Lands of intrigue book with the new one).
Remember that CD that came with an anniversary Dragon way back when? It had a dungeon generator program, and a few old dragon/dungeon issues as pdfs? AS wel las a whole series of articles about star wars(wouldn't that be handy as heck if it was FR articcles from dragon/WOTC site?) I thought that was just the neatest thing I had gotten in a good long while. I still have it, and when need arises for a randown building or dungeon, I turn it on.
The idea of a free CD with the goodies you mention is a wonderful one. I, too, still have that CD from that issue of Dragon, and I quite like it.  |
| Capn Charlie |
Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 19:00:46
*raises fist* *Considers* *Extends thumb downward*
My verdict is no. Sorry, but while having it in such a format is insanely useful, it is not $35 useful. I could just buy the book in hardcopy, and scan it in for my personal use, and get twice the utility. (well, maybe 1.6-1.8 since I assume it will be a PDF with text I can copy/paste into my notes).
Quite frankly the rules themselves are NOT worth cover price. That(cover price) is just a good deal since it is an attractive hardcopy version that is easily used at my gaming table, or abroad wherever I decide to game at, as well as being more comfortable and comforting to read than a computer screen.
As such(with the rising prices) I have not bought a book at cover price for well over a year. I also do not plan to any time soon, either.
Seeing books released in such a format(electronic) for the same cost as those with an actual(in my opinion) cost seems disingenious, and is a bit disheartening.
Now, all that said, I might very well consider their book worth cover price(and very possibly pay that price for it) if it came with a CD, or perhaps certificate for a CD that I mail in for at a later date, containing a PDF(with copy pastable/searchable text) and bonus features like stuff that the authors wanted in but they had neither space for in the book, or room for on their website(), maybe a few author interviews, and maybe even a PDF or two of an old 2e book over a similiar area/goal(like putting hte OLD Lands of intrigue book with the new one).
I am a simple man, about some things, and readily admit I am easily fooled. And "free" or "special" things suck me in hook, line, and sinker. Try to fool me into making me think I got my money's worth. Cloth maps(like the one with the NWN and IWD games) are very nice, and add to the cool factor of a product significgantly in my eyes. As do limited edition pewter minis, and other swag.
Remember that CD that came with an anniversary Dragon way back when? It had a dungeon generator program, and a few old dragon/dungeon issues as pdfs? AS wel las a whole series of articles about star wars(wouldn't that be handy as heck if it was FR articcles from dragon/WOTC site?) I thought that was just the neatest thing I had gotten in a good long while. I still have it, and when need arises for a randown building or dungeon, I turn it on.
Things like that add very little to price, but add oodles and gobs to value to many customers like me. (the shiny fishbait crowd)
Final Verdict: I would pay 1/4 of coverprice for a searchable/copy pastable PDF of a sourcebook, or an additional $5 for it along with my hardcopy version. |
| The Wanderer |
Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 18:20:40
I agree with the Hamster. Coming from a computer background, I already spend enought time staring at a screen. I find having a book to be a much more agreeable experience.
Having the book makes even more sense when buying an information book like Frostburn. I'm sure the book has tables and maps. Sometimes these are not on the same page, and viewing a PDF with that type of format is a pain in the ***.
Some people who are unable to get the book easily might like this idea, but I do not think that it will do very well. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 18:05:44
1. Nope. You know I like the print editions. The Hamster likes to have a book in his hand, not something on his computer screen.
2. Prolly not great, because I think most people would, like myself, prefer to have a book in hand. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 24 Sep 2004 : 18:02:03
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Thus, I wanted to see what other scribes thought and here are some questions to consider in any replies:
1. Would you purchase a PDF like this if it was for a newly released Realms product? If so or if not, why?
2. How do you think sales will go in this "trial run?"
Thanks to any for replying.
SB
Like most over on ENworld, it's not for me.
If I am paying that much for a PDF, since it is about the same price as the hard copy, then I'd just go buy the hard copy (which I'm planning on doing soon.)
Besides I don't like PDF's because I don't like reading long passages of text over the moniter, and the few 3rd party ones I have bought I printed out. Reading long passages of text makes my eyes dry out and ache. And then with the printing cost for that PDF, I'd rather just go buy the hard copy. :) |
|
|
