| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 10:39:32
Since I appear to be among the first (here) to have received this tome, I'm willing to answer any questions anyone has.
I'll also be posting a chapter by chapter review just as soon as I start reading through it.
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| 23 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 May 2004 : 05:45:32
Yes, I've mentioned Beyond Countless Doorways here many times Sirius.
Please note however that the URL provided by Sirius is only the first of many such discussions on the unique cosmology presented in this new tome.
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| SiriusBlack |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 16:21:02
quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
I very much agree with you about a 3.5 Planescape update. If only they didn't go galivanting (I love that word, but can't spell it for my life) around creating new settings before they ressurrected the well-loved ones.
Monte Cook is doing something he is calling a Planescape reunion product. He just posted a design diary entry giving some of his thoughts on the subject.
http://www.montecook.com/diary.html |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 15:36:06
quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
Thanks for the answers, Sage.
I am very disappointed that they don't have a section on avatars, as the picture of Tiamat ravaging some town suggested - that was my main interest in the product. Ah well, De&De will have to do.
That particular image of Tiamat mainly serves as an artistic piece in the tome.
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| Arivia |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 14:01:40
Gallivanting, my dear. |
| Sarelle |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 13:47:59
Thanks for the answers, Sage.
I am very disappointed that they don't have a section on avatars, as the picture of Tiamat ravaging some town suggested - that was my main interest in the product. Ah well, De&De will have to do.
Well, CD has gone down considerably in my estimation, but I still might buy it (at the end of a long list of other books to buy - I think the main quesion is which is higher: Eberron or CD!)
And Sage - I very much agree with you about a 3.5 Planescape update. If only they didn't go galivanting (I love that word, but can't spell it for my life) around creating new settings before they ressurrected the well-loved ones. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 08:38:27
::The Sage temporarily emerges from the ether (namely the Against the Shadow Message Boards) to add a a few points to Sarta's most recent post::
quote:
I've actually had CD since it hit the shelves. As has been mentioned there are a few FR prc's lifted and given face lifts to be more generic: Black Flame Zealot, Stormlord, and Entropomancer (which is a reworked version of the Entropist from Lords of Darkness).
Yes, and that is actually based upon an older 2e character kit for the Doomguard in the Planescape setting. Although I still wish for a fully official 3e PS setting, it's nice to see that WotC sometimes remembers the glories of the "good old days of 2e".
quote:
As Sage mentioned in the other thread, the faith feats are interesting as well. They use a slightly less powerful version of the hero point system outlined in Monty Cook's Arcanum Unearthed. Clerics earn faith points by doing stuff that forwards their religion and can then use these points to power the specific feats they have purchased.
Monte actually stated that he had considered using a similar faith point system for AU, but the initial designs conflicted with the hero point system. Plus, when the original designs for CD were drawn up, and knowledge of the faith feats and their point system became known, he retracted the idea and used something more innovative which I can't mentioned since it will likely anger the wise Alaundo...
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| Sarta |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 08:16:19
I've actually had CD since it hit the shelves. As has been mentioned there are a few FR prc's lifted and given face lifts to be more generic: Black Flame Zealot, Stormlord, and Entropomancer (which is a reworked version of the Entropist from Lords of Darkness). The obvious objective with this version of their write ups is to make them applicable to far more settings rather than be Faerun specific.
So, if you are looking for more realms lore, you will not find it here.
What I found more interesting were some of the alternative rules, such as using turn undead to simply do damage directly to undead (or heal if evil) rather than force the undead into flight. As Sage mentioned in the other thread, the faith feats are interesting as well. They use a slightly less powerful version of the hero point system outlined in Monty Cook's Arcanum Unearthed. Clerics earn faith points by doing stuff that forwards their religion and can then use these points to power the specific feats they have purchased.
I have yet to begin pouring over all the new feats and spells, or I'd give more info regarding those.
From what I've read though, I will get far more use out of this book when designing a new world setting than I will when running in the Forgotten Realms.
Sarta |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 06:39:54
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Most of the PrC could have some use in a FR campaigns, but as I said earlier, I see them being more effective as additions to NPCs. There's one PrC, 'Seeker of the Misty Isle' which just seems completely redundant. They are best described as a "romanticized version of the French Foreign Legion" [quote from Complete Divine pg. 61].
Might pass on CD then
*chuckle* I guess that means that one of the Prereqs for the Seeker of Misty isle prc is must have the Run feat?  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 05:35:47
It really depends upon the type of FR DM. For example, as most here know, I regularly emphasise 'fluff' over 'crunch' in all of my campaigns. CD has considerable 'crunch' as we all know, but there's some interesting 'fluff' material about "life" in the afterlife, and ways PCs can serve once they leave the material plane. Now for me most of this information was mostly irrelevant, I already have considerable knowledge on this, so that portion of the book will probably be an area that I will always skip over.
Most of the PrC could have some use in a FR campaigns, but as I said earlier, I see them being more effective as additions to NPCs. There's one PrC, 'Seeker of the Misty Isle' which just seems completely redundant. They are best described as a "romanticized version of the French Foreign Legion" [quote from Complete Divine pg. 61].
Most of the divine feats appear to be new material, however there are some that have been "recycled" from other sources (not many from Faiths and Pantheons.
Really, it's usefulness all comes down to whether you like generalised core concepts with just a hint of Realms flavor, or specific material that was created with the FR well in mind.
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| Dargoth |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 05:25:04
How useful is this book to an FR DM? and how much of it is recycled stuff from previous books (Im expecting to see alot of the divine feats in Faithes and Pantheons reappear in Complete divine) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 05:23:54
quote:
Originally posted by Darth KTrava
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Agreed .
I'm not really sure about the 'Wings' ability though. It seems like an odd placement for such a class.
Perhaps the hinting at this: "It is speculated by some sages that the Favored Souls may have traces of outsider blood in their veins, the result of unions from several generations in their past."? as written in the opening post.
That was my first thought, as it seems like a carry over from a similar trend in the PS setting. In fact the entire classes reads like it was lifted from a similar character kit in the Planewalkers Handbook. I'll have to check that.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 05:21:46
quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
My question for you Sage is there any mention of Realms specifics at all?
There are at least two PrCs, the aforementioned Black Flame Zealot, and the Stormlord, a devotee of Talos the Destroyer. Some of the other PrC could be adapted for use in FR with very little effort, but from what I've seen, they'd serve better as additions to NPCs.
There are no specific Realms deities mentioned, other than as reference points to FR material should the player have any interest. One interesting thing I did find was that several core concepts from the Oriental Adventures tome were mentioned (along with some classes like the Shugenja), but useful FR material was left out...
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| The Sage |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 05:16:51
quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
Well, if it is okay, I have a couple of questions:
1) So what's your overall opinion of the book? And I'm not expecting too much "fluff" (I'd say lore, but this is unrelated to FR), so don't bother too much on that.
2) Is the section on deities a guide to role-playing avatars, as I assumed? If so, how good is it? Any updates on 2e material and any better/worse than 2e guides? And finally, how much of it is about FIGHTING avatars, compared to role-playing them?
3) Is the contemplative prestige Class any good? It's the one that interested me most in the art gallery (next to the Void disciple, which I can see for free).
4) Is the Black Flame Zealot an update of Unapproachable East's?, and if so, have they taken out the FR material?
Thanks.
Okay,
1) My overall opinion of the book is somewhat limited by the fact that I've only read the first two chapters -- The Devoted (namely core classes), and Prestige Classes (which consists of most of the second chapter). From this, all I can say is that the core classes and first chapter emphasis on who and what divine spellcasters can serve, was more interesting than the dry rundown of very unimaginative PrC contained in chapter 2.
2) The section on deities details each and every core D&D deity in the following format:
- Portfolio
- Domains
- Cleric Training (which is really just how the deities attract and teach new clerics and other non-spellcasting followers)
- Quests (what type of duties and tasks the deity will likely ask it's divine followers to perform)
- Prayers (the unique ways of pray that divine followers regularly use to communicate with their patron)
- Temples (obviously, special places of worship)
- Rites (the unqiue and differing ways in which the various religions celebrate and honour particular aspects)
- Relics (this is obvious)
- Herald and Allies (again, this is obvious)
As for how good the material is, well, it just provides basic details. Deity background and history is ommitted and the player is referred to the deity descriptions in the PHB for more details.
There is updated 2e material, although it mostly relates to the deities presented in Monster Mythology. The chapter also details the rest of the Greyhawk pantheon. This was by far the better portion of the chapter, at least from my perspective.
3) The 'Contemplative' PrC seems well balanced and constructed on paper, but I'm not too sure about how it would function in play. It seems a little overpowered once the PC passes 5th level. But again, that's just me. If you like your characters being able to gain considerable spell resistance and immunity to poisons at mid-levels, then this class is for you.
4) The 'Black Flame Zealot' appears to be the same class from UE, but most of the FR material has been retained. There is mention of Kossuth in the statistical write-up, as well as the Order of the Black Flame.
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| Darth KTrava |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 04:45:07
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Agreed .
I'm not really sure about the 'Wings' ability though. It seems like an odd placement for such a class.
Perhaps the hinting at this: "It is speculated by some sages that the Favored Souls may have traces of outsider blood in their veins, the result of unions from several generations in their past."? as written in the opening post.
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| Chyron |
Posted - 21 May 2004 : 02:39:35
Yes, I agree. I don't have a copy of complete divine. But The Favored Soul is one of the featured PC classes in The Miniatures Handbook. To me it came across as a form of Divine Sorcerer with a bit of Red Dragon Disciple (but in this case celestial instead of draconic) abilities thrown in.
My question for you Sage is there any mention of Realms specifics at all?
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| Purple Dragon Knight |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 17:47:25
The cleric is to wizard as the favored soul is to sorcerer, in a nutshell... think of a cleric with no domains who cannot turn undead (but has other funky abilities) and can cast a limited amount of spells on the fly like a sorcerer, and you pretty much have a good picture of the Favored Soul.
Oh, and yes: "Wings" was there in the Miniatures Handbook, at 17th level... like I said, I compared both books in a gamestore and the complete divine Favored Soul is an exact cut and paste of the Miniatures Handbook Favored Soul...  |
| Sarelle |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 15:07:41
Well, if it is okay, I have a couple of questions:
1) So what's your overall opinion of the book? And I'm not expecting too much "fluff" (I'd say lore, but this is unrelated to FR), so don't bother too much on that.
2) Is the section on deities a guide to role-playing avatars, as I assumed? If so, how good is it? Any updates on 2e material and any better/worse than 2e guides? And finally, how much of it is about FIGHTING avatars, compared to role-playing them?
3) Is the contemplative prestige Class any good? It's the one that interested me most in the art gallery (next to the Void disciple, which I can see for free).
4) Is the Black Flame Zealot an update of Unapproachable East's?, and if so, have they taken out the FR material?
Thanks. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 14:36:32
Good, do that . Because the more and more I look at this class, the more and more this feature seems out of place.
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| Arivia |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 14:28:41
I'm not sure, and maybe some other scribes can confirm this, but I don't think Wings was the ability originally given to the class in the Miniatures Handbook-I'll check. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 13:44:23
Agreed .
I'm not really sure about the 'Wings' ability though. It seems like an odd placement for such a class.
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 13:33:27
Interesting. This class sounds like it has potential . . . . |
| The Sage |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 13:23:53
"Fluff" bits -
Well, a Favored Soul is said to walk the path of the crusading cleric. They have the ability to direct (or rather channel) the divine power they receive, often with a surprising amount of ease. They are known to be able to carry out many of the tasks that their fellow divine spellcasters can, but without the necessity of study.
It is speculated by some sages that the Favored Souls may have traces of outsider blood in their veins, the result of unions from several generations in their past. Other theories suggest that the Favored Souls deeper connection to the divine is simply the result of a gift from their patron deity when they first start out on their journey as a cleric.
The Favored Soul sees her gift as "a call to action" [quote from Complete Divine pg. 6], and therefore this may result in FS being able to act more quickly than her more studious kin.
Obviously FS cast divine spells, but the tomes states that this casting is the result of a "innate connection" [quote from Complete Divine pg. 7] instead of stuidious training and practice. They know fewer divine spells than other divine spellcasters (much like the paladin) and can only access more powerful spells at higher levels, more slowly than other spellcasters (again like the paladin). However, they can prepare their own spells more often and can also cast them just as quickly as well.
Because divine magic is so intuitive to the FS, it allows the class to lead a freer life in regards to matters of faith and doctrine (this is where the differences between the divine classes become evident), so in effect, the FS tends toward chaos more often than law.
"Crunchy" bits -
HD: d8
Alignment: They are allowed any kind of alignment
Skills: a reasonable sampling, much like other divine spellcasters
Weapons and Armor Proficiency: there's really nothing new here
Spells: the only real difference between a cleric and a FS is that a FS can cast divine spells exactly like the cleric without the need to prepare them before hand...spontaneous casting. Their spell lists are limited only to clerical spells, however a FS's spells known is less than a regular cleric. They only learn 5th level spells at character level 10. FS receive bonus spells with a high Charisma.
As the FS progresses in level, she can receive the Weapon Focus feat at 3rd level. However the FS must have a weapon that is also like her deity's favored weapon.
Aside from all that, the FS also receives Energy Resistance, Deity Weapon Specialisation, and the 'Wings' extraordinary ability.
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 20 May 2004 : 12:46:57
Well, I'd like to know more about the Favored Soul class you mentioned as being an alternative to the Paladin. What can you tell us without getting the hoardes of the Abyss WotC legal department after us? |
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