| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Diffan |
Posted - 12 Aug 2015 : 05:23:53
So Paizo has released a supplement that supposed to "fix" some of the Core Classes (Monk, Rogue, Barbarian) with a series called "Unchained". Overall I really like the Rogue I converted (Now Unchained Rogue 7/ Stalker 3) and it got me thinking about the Fighter. Now Pathfinder gave the Fighter some goodies but, IMO, they weren't enough. So I did some searching on how to implement a better Fighter class within the 3.x and Pathfinder framework that doesn't rely on widgets and "button-mashing" abilities that seems to be apparent with the majority of classes within that system. I then came across this excellent article detailing an analyzing of the class and the common troubles it encounters PLUS a few ways to make it better.
So with the help of his article and some of my own ideas I attempted a new version of the Fighter, now called Unchained Fighter Always, constructive criticism is appreciated.
Unchained Fighter
Hit Die: d10
Proficiencies: The Fighter is proficient with all simple, martial, non-racial exotic weapons, and all armor and shields (including tower shields).
Skills: Climb, Craft (all skills taken individually), Handle Animal, Intimidate, Knowledge (dungeoneering), Knowledge (engineering), Perception, Profession, Ride, Survival, and Swim
Skills per Level: 4 + Int. modifier
TABLE: 1-1
Attack
Lvl Bonus Fort Ref Will Special
1st +1 +2 +2 +0 Healthy, larger than life (medium)
2nd +2 +3 +3 +0 Bonus feat (combat), deflect damage
3rd +3 +3 +3 +1 Bonus feat (combat), tricky, sentinel +1
4th +4 +4 +4 +1 Bonus feat (combat), enhanced warfare +1,
5th +5 +4 +4 +1 Surging resistance 1/encounter, warrior's path
6th +6 +5 +5 +2 Bonus feat (any), larger than life (large)
sentinel +2, wade in
7th +7 +5 +5 +2 Enhanced warfare +2, hustle
8th +8 +6 +6 +2 Bonus feat (any)
9th +9 +6 +6 +3 Sentinel +3, weapon mastery
10th +10 +7 +7 +3 Bonus feat (any), enhanced warfare +3,
larger than life (huge)
11th +11 +7 +7 +3 Dominate Weapon, surging resistance 2/encounter
12th +12 +8 +8 +4 Bonus feat (any), sentinel +4
13th +13 +8 +8 +4 Enhanced warfare +4
14th +14 +9 +9 +4 Bonus feat (any), larger than life
(colossal)
15th +15 +9 +9 +5 Sentinel +5
16th +16 +10 +10 +5 Bonus feat (any), enhanced warfare +5
17th +17 +10 +10 +5 Surging resistance 3/encounter
18th +18 +11 +11 +6 Bonus feat (any), larger than life
(gargantuan)
19th +19 +11 +11 +6 Deathstroke
20th +20 +12 +12 +6 Bonus feat (any)
CLASS FEATURES
Below are the descriptions of class features the Unchained Fighter receives.
Healthy: Starting at 1st level when the fighter receives any sort of healing, add the Fighter’s level to the hit points healed.
Larger Than Life (Ex): At 1st level when making Strength-based checks (not attacks), or any other roll where size matters such as when initiating a combat maneuver, you may treat the Fighter as if he were the indicated size. Medium at 1st, Large at 6th, Huge at 10th, Colossal at 14th, and Gargantuan at 18th.
Bonus Feats: Starting at 2nd level, Fighters get an assortment of bonus feats. Some of these are combat-focused. The fighter gains any Combat feat even if he does not meet the ability prerequisites of that feat. These feats may be changed with a Standard Action. As these feats can change, they do not act as prerequisites for Prestige Classes and other character feats. When the Fighter reaches 6th level, he gains Any feat. These function like Combat feat except that the fighter gains any possible feat even if he doesn’t meet the ability prerequisites of that feat. These feats may also be changed with a Standard Action.
Deflect Damage (Ex): At 2nd level, if an adjacent ally or the Fighter is injured in combat, the Fighter may make an opposed attack check (adding any shield bonus and enhancement bonus to his attack) as an Immediate Action. If successful, the opponent’s attack does minimum damage and any additional effects do not apply.
Tricky (Ex): Starting at 3rd level, when a Fighter uses a combat maneuver (such as Disarm or Trip) he may do so as a swift action that does not provoke Attacks of Opportunity. If the maneuvers fails, the Fighter receives no penalties and triggers no retaliation.
Sentinel (Ex): The Fighter gains innate enhancement bonuses to armor he wears and shield’s he wields, becoming an even more formidable warrior. Starting at 3rd level and every 3 levels after (6th, 9th, etc) they gain a cumulative +1 bonus to their armor and shield. These bonuses do not stack with existing magical item [enhancement] bonuses.
Enhanced Warfare (Ex): By tapping into his inner strength, his attacks lend more might than your average warrior. Starting at 4th level and every 3 levels after (7th, 10th, etc) they gain a cumulative +1 bonus to their weapon attack and damage rolls. These enhancement bonuses do not stack with any existing magical item [enhancement] bonuses.
Warrior’s Path: The path of the Fighter lies in specific styles and approaches to combat. Some adopt a varied path, taking feats and weapons that accommodate a multitude of situations. Some like to become more focused, putting added emphasis on a specific path. Below select a path that best describes the style you most commonly apply. You can change your style with a full day of physical training.
Dervish: Warriors choosing dual-attack style like the versatility that comes with wielding two weapons, often using a matched pair or two separate ones for utility.
• Double Slice: You gain the double slice feat as a bonus feat so long as you meet the prerequisites. If you already have double slice you may choose another combat feat you already meet the prerequisites for.
• Whirling Blades: Your ambidexterity and aptitude for the dual-style allows you unparalleled precision. From now on you may wield any combination of light or one-handed weapons in each hand and reduce the penalties for fighting with two-weapons by 1.
Great-Weapon: Warriors choosing the great, two-handed weapons emphasize power and might over defense and ranged attacks.
• Focused Frenzy: You gain the focused frenzy feat as a bonus feat so long as you meet the prerequisites. If you already possess focused frenzy you may choose another combat feat you already meet the prerequisites for.
• Reaping Strike: Whenever you miss with a melee attack while using a two-handed weapon, you still deal damage equal to your Strength modifier so long as you can reach the target. Your weapon’s enhancement bonus to damage does not apply nor to any added effects due to making a successful attack.
Shield Warden: Warrior’s choosing the shield know that the best offense is a good defense and can use their shield as both.
• Shield Bash: You gain the shield bash feat as a bonus feat. If you already possess shield bash you may choose another combat feat you already meet the prerequisites for.
• Shield Attack: You add your innate enhancement bonus from shields to attack and damage rolls when you initiate a shield bash or fight with it using Two-Weapon Fighting.
Surging Resistance: You gain an almost supernatural defense against magic, as it persists in being one of your biggest threats. At 5th level whenever you roll a saving throw you can roll two d20s and take the higher result. You must refocus your control to do this again, which takes approximately 5 min of interrupted concentration. This benefit can be used twice per encounter at 11th level, and a third time per encounter at 17th.
Wade In (Ex): Beginning at 6th level the Fighter may make a Full Attack as a Standard Action so long as he is able to make at least one attack in a round.
Hustle (Ex): At 7th level if the Fighter moves as a full round action, he ignores all movement penalties due to armor and shield.
Weapon Mastery (Ex): At 9th level any feat which applies to any single weapon now applies to all weapons.
Dominate Weapon (Ex): Starting at 11th level when picking up any magical weapon, the Fighter is considered to meet all the prerequisites for wielding that magical weapon except for any racial requirements.
Death Stroke (Ex): The Fighter has nearly reached the pinnacle of his training, giving him supreme advantages in the field of war and combat. They know just the right way to twist a sword or adjust a shot to make the very best of a critical moment. Starting at 19th level, when you succeed on a critical hit the creature must make Fort save or die (DC = 10 + damage done). The creature must be at least under half their full Hit points for this to take place. Like other death effects creatures without discernable anatomies’, most undead, and constructs are immune to this feature. Specific undead creatures, like Vampires, can be slain but the critical hit must come a source that is consistent with the manner in which these creatures can be slain. |
| 10 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Diffan |
Posted - 23 Sep 2015 : 09:53:59
quote:
Originally posted by Marc
The unchained book had the stamina system that fixed the fighter. Also I'd try to expand its versatility by converting some of Tome of Battle maneuvers to it (those that don't appear magical), not sure if its possible... or turn them into combat feats.
I used the Unchained Rogue in our RotRL adventure and he's doing quite well, though I got the info straight from the OGL site and don't have the book. My buddy did buy it so I'll give the Stamina system a look.
As for the Tome of Battle, Dreamscarred Press released a supplement called Path of War that I own (making up the second half of my Rogue character) and that has certainly helped with Martials in general. Still, that's the sort of "button-mashing" style character this class is supposed to avoid. |
| Marc |
Posted - 22 Sep 2015 : 16:11:47
The unchained book had the stamina system that fixed the fighter. Also I'd try to expand its versatility by converting some of Tome of Battle maneuvers to it (those that don't appear magical), not sure if its possible... or turn them into combat feats. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 19 Sep 2015 : 10:58:53
Undated a few things:
• Lose Spell Resistance and gain Surging Resistance that can be used/regained per encounter (or 5 min of rest and meditation). You now gain additional uses of this feature where your SR would increase.
• Bonus feats: You can now use a Standard Action to swap out the bonus feats instead of a Full-Round Action.
• Warrior's Path: You can swap your feature after 1-full day of practice rather than one week.
• Clarify: Deflect Damage is an Immediate Action and is limited to 1/round. That means if they use it to deflect an attack against an ally, he can't use it on an iterative attack from the same creature OR from another creature later in the round. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 18 Sep 2015 : 05:49:56
quote:
Originally posted by hashimashadoo
IMO, this class is really unbalanced and needs to be toned down. Don't get me wrong, it achieves what you set out to do in that it requires a lot less effort to play a fighter using this class, but it achieves this by eliminating any need to put any effort in, as its class abilities replace the need for everything a fighter's player could ever wish for.
I'm not sure that I could offer constructive criticism without starting from scratch.
While I appreciate the criticism, I'm not sure what exactly you mean? For example, why does it eliminate effort? If I'm playing a Fighter and I pickup a Great sword and put my resources to making that better, I'm lowering my proficiency in a quite few other areas. Personally I enjoy a LOT more flexibility than stone-baked options for the character's career.
Also, what are we comparing this class to when you say its unbalanced? Is it the Wizard, Cleric, or Druid? The Unchained Rogue is a LOT better now as is the Unchained Monk. The Barbarian is still pretty darn good with the amount of Rage options he has and the paladin gets 2 good saves, full BAB, spells, smites that last encounter long with damage / AC boosts, and Saving benefits and immunities. This fighter brings unparalleled combat tactics and flexibility and doesn't need to find/use magically enhanced weapons to remain effective.
Could you be more specific? |
| Diffan |
Posted - 18 Sep 2015 : 05:37:18
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Personally I don't like a lot of x/day effects though per-encounter imjjjnjjjnj N' VVM VVM jnjnjjjnnjnjjjjnnkdjJjjj N' nnmnkkknkkjk no kkk KO mjjjnjj I went with SR because it was a system already in place that worked against most magic, giving the Unchained Fighter a feeling of "I'm better than magic" feel. The Unchained Fighter doesn't need magic to be successful.
Seems like your post was damaged. I understand the reason behind the choice, it's just SR seems somewhat out of place to me, because -AFAIK- it's something innate, that can't really be learnt through martial training. Anyway, it surely gets the job done, from a mechanical standpoint.
Yeah, I get the whole innate effect its supposed to represent. Maybe a per/encounter effect is more thematic and you get more uses per encounter as you gain levels. Maybe introduce a 5e-style Advantage mechanic for saving throws. What sort of name would you give this? Willful Surge?
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
When a spellcaster can cast Gate, Meteor Swarm, Wish and the like at 19th level, Death stroke seems to pale a bit in comparison, especially when it still has to trigger from a critical hit.
Yes, I can totally see where you are coming from (even if Meteor Swarm is kinda ''meh'', IMO). I was worried about it making some fights trivial, with the right weapons and feats, but then, stuff like Gate exists... However, I think that, out of fairness, ranged weapons should have a lower threshold than melee. Spamming finger of death 4-5 times/round from range, when your BBEG still has like 200 hp left, seems a bit unfair to fighters that risk being hit by its melee attacks. It also reflects that it is harder to hit a vital point from distance. EDIT: NVM I forgot that it activates on a crit. If you get the improved crit range feats, it should happen only once every two rounds with bows.
Correct, also its a Fort save DC 10 + damage and most ranged weapon attacks aren't pumping out loads of damage in a single hit.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Mainly because he really can only use certain feats with specific weapon/shield combos. Its easy to pre-set a cluster of feats tailored specifically to what one likes in combination of certain weaponry. You'd write down an "Archer Theme" and the feats that work for that theme. Do the same with TWF, 2-handed weapons, reach weapons, shields, etc.
Oh, I see. Yes, that makes sense. It would be basically the same as switching weapons.
Exactly. When you switch to a set of weapons or shield combo, you re-focus your mind to a specific style. Maybe dropping the time requirement to a Standard Action would make it flow better?
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Basically refers to overused tactics used by weapon-based characters with one-trick ponies. A Rage-Pounce-Charger or Spiked-Chain tripper are push-button because most of their resources are used up in making this particular style effective. Due to feats acting like cement, they allow almost zero flexibility in terms of what you're capable of. This class attempts to alleviate that with more fluid feat selection.
That sounds rather boring. This version of the fighter definitely removes that problem, it is very flexible and should be refreshing and fun to play.
Thank you. I can't take all the credit as someone else went through a very thorough review and analysis of the class (seen in the OP) and a lot of the ideas stem from that directly. Though I showed this to my friend who likes fighters and he thinks he'd play this for all 20 levels (another desired outcome of the class). |
| hashimashadoo |
Posted - 17 Sep 2015 : 19:09:27
IMO, this class is really unbalanced and needs to be toned down. Don't get me wrong, it achieves what you set out to do in that it requires a lot less effort to play a fighter using this class, but it achieves this by eliminating any need to put any effort in, as its class abilities replace the need for everything a fighter's player could ever wish for.
I'm not sure that I could offer constructive criticism without starting from scratch. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 17 Sep 2015 : 14:37:45
quote:
Personally I don't like a lot of x/day effects though per-encounter imjjjnjjjnj N' VVM VVM jnjnjjjnnjnjjjjnnkdjJjjj N' nnmnkkknkkjk no kkk KO mjjjnjj I went with SR because it was a system already in place that worked against most magic, giving the Unchained Fighter a feeling of "I'm better than magic" feel. The Unchained Fighter doesn't need magic to be successful.
Seems like your post was damaged. I understand the reason behind the choice, it's just SR seems somewhat out of place to me, because -AFAIK- it's something innate, that can't really be learnt through martial training. Anyway, it surely gets the job done, from a mechanical standpoint.
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
When a spellcaster can cast Gate, Meteor Swarm, Wish and the like at 19th level, Death stroke seems to pale a bit in comparison, especially when it still has to trigger from a critical hit.
Yes, I can totally see where you are coming from (even if Meteor Swarm is kinda ''meh'', IMO). I was worried about it making some fights trivial, with the right weapons and feats, but then, stuff like Gate exists... However, I think that, out of fairness, ranged weapons should have a lower threshold than melee. Spamming finger of death 4-5 times/round from range, when your BBEG still has like 200 hp left, seems a bit unfair to fighters that risk being hit by its melee attacks. It also reflects that it is harder to hit a vital point from distance. EDIT: NVM I forgot that it activates on a crit. If you get the improved crit range feats, it should happen only once every two rounds with bows.
quote:
Mainly because he really can only use certain feats with specific weapon/shield combos. Its easy to pre-set a cluster of feats tailored specifically to what one likes in combination of certain weaponry. You'd write down an "Archer Theme" and the feats that work for that theme. Do the same with TWF, 2-handed weapons, reach weapons, shields, etc.
Oh, I see. Yes, that makes sense. It would be basically the same as switching weapons.
quote:
Basically refers to overused tactics used by weapon-based characters with one-trick ponies. A Rage-Pounce-Charger or Spiked-Chain tripper are push-button because most of their resources are used up in making this particular style effective. Due to feats acting like cement, they allow almost zero flexibility in terms of what you're capable of. This class attempts to alleviate that with more fluid feat selection.
That sounds rather boring. This version of the fighter definitely removes that problem, it is very flexible and should be refreshing and fun to play. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 17 Sep 2015 : 08:16:28
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I'll say that, while I know 3.xe and have used it for a time, I don't currently play it, so take this with a grain of salt.
Any feed back is appreciated.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
''Wade In'' and ''Hustle'' cover the fighter's lack of mobility, and I like them. ''Tricky'' and ''Deflect Damage'' give the class some utility without sacrificing damage.
Yeah, wade in really helps a fighter stay relevant with multiple attacks kicking on all cylinders. Tricky is fun for modes that utilize the myriad of combat maneuvers and feats.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Spell resistance is a nice thing to have, but it seems to be a little out of place, given the class concept. I would prefer to give the fighter full high saves, and a skill that allowed him to reroll a save a certain number of times per day (or per battle).
Personally I don't like a lot of x/day effects though per-encounter are something that I can get behind. I went with SR because it was a system already in place that worked against most magic, giving the Unchained Fighter a feeling of "I'm better than magic" feel. The Unchained Fighter doesn't need magic to be successful.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
''Death Stroke'' seems to be a little too powerful: with weapons and feats focusing on widening the crit range, the fighter would basically be able to spam ''finger of death'' (even if the creature has to be below 50% HP).
When a spellcaster can cast Gate, Meteor Swarm, Wish and the like at 19th level, Death stroke seems to pale a bit in comparison, especially when it still has to trigger from a critical hit.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
I would do this: provide the skill earlier, make it so that critical strikes can inflict effects (like a called shot, so you could inflict bleeding, break limbs and the sort), then at 19th level introduce the killing blow feature.
Interesting, not sure where I would plug the features at but its worth looking into. Thanks for the suggestion.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
The Bonus Feats are a bit strange: I like them from a game-y perspective, but why does a fighter need to ''dance'' between sets of feats, if they actually knows them all?
Mainly because he really can only use certain feats with specific weapon/shield combos. Its easy to pre-set a cluster of feats tailored specifically to what one likes in combination of certain weaponry. You'd write down an "Archer Theme" and the feats that work for that theme. Do the same with TWF, 2-handed weapons, reach weapons, shields, etc.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
It be more understandable, if there were pre-gen sets of feats, focusing on various combat styles (for example, the spring attack chain feat, the archery feats and so on) and the fighter spent some time to adjust their positioning equipment, in order to ''switch'' (in this case, I think that a full round action might be too much, though).
The problem I have with using chains is that they often use feats that are irrelevant. An archer without a mount isn't going to want to ride-by-attack when he can grab a different feat. A full around action might be stiff, so maybe a standard action is more appropriate, that way they can still move in the round.
quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
One last thing. I don't own the supplement, so what do you mean for ''button mashing'' abilities?
Basically refers to overused tactics used by weapon-based characters with one-trick ponies. A Rage-Pounce-Charger or Spiked-Chain tripper are push-button because most of their resources are used up in making this particular style effective. Due to feats acting like cement, they allow almost zero flexibility in terms of what you're capable of. This class attempts to alleviate that with more fluid feat selection. |
| Irennan |
Posted - 15 Sep 2015 : 14:00:44
I'll say that, while I know 3.xe and have used it for a time, I don't currently play it, so take this with a grain of salt.
''Wade In'' and ''Hustle'' cover the fighter's lack of mobility, and I like them. ''Tricky'' and ''Deflect Damage'' give the class some utility without sacrificing damage. Spell resistance is a nice thing to have, but it seems to be a little out of place, given the class concept. I would prefer to give the fighter full high saves, and a skill that allowed him to reroll a save a certain number of times per day (or per battle). ''Death Stroke'' seems to be a little too powerful: with weapons and feats focusing on widening the crit range, the fighter would basically be able to spam ''finger of death'' (even if the creature has to be below 50% HP). I would do this: provide the skill earlier, make it so that critical strikes can inflict effects (like a called shot, so you could inflict bleeding, break limbs and the sort), then at 19th level introduce the killing blow feature.
The Bonus Feats are a bit strange: I like them from a game-y perspective, but why does a fighter need to ''dance'' between sets of feats, if they actually knows them all? It be more understandable, if there were pre-gen sets of feats, focusing on various combat styles (for example, the spring attack chain feat, the archery feats and so on) and the fighter spent some time to adjust their positioning equipment, in order to ''switch'' (in this case, I think that a full round action might be too much, though).
One last thing. I don't own the supplement, so what do you mean for ''button mashing'' abilities? |
| Diffan |
Posted - 15 Sep 2015 : 13:18:40
So.......any thoughts? |
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