| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 18:12:44
Not being a member of either of those groups, I'm hoping for some clarification.
When I Google "draft horse" I get the impression that it's an informal class of horses whose main shared characteristic is that they're more muscular than a riding horse. Speaking as a complete stranger to all matters equine (I *think* I rode a pony twice when I was 5-8 years old but I can't remember for sure), it seems a little vague.
I'm going through the Monster Manuals, starting with the *first* one, and trying to match (in this particular case) the horses introduced in 2e and 3e FR products with the categories established in the 1e MM. Later MMs name different categories, which doesn't help.
In various editions we have light/heavy horse, light/medium/heavy warhorse, wild horse, riding horse, plus pony and war pony, donkey, mule, etc. I'm mainly concerned about the horses, because there's so many distinctions.
I understand that MM descriptions often don't exactly mirror real life distinctions. Authors aren't always experts on the rl creatures they translate into game terms, and that's fine, I'm not pointing fingers or criticizing.
*But* ...with all that in mind, what should the difference be between a "draft horse" and a "heavy horse", in D&D terms? Weights and "hands" are okay; I can handle some math... in fact I would welcome some numbers to separate the categories. And I can see from Google that there's a bit of variation within the draft category -- there are larger and smaller draft horses. Should the "draft" moniker be entirely defined by the jobs the horse is suited for, and ignore size?
In an even more murky direction, what distinguishes a light war horse from a light riding horse? Training? Shouldn't there be a musculature difference too, to enable the wearing of barding, or are *all* horses strong enough to wear full chain or plate barding in addition to carrying a rider, for the 12-16 hours of traveling the average adventurer thinks to do in a day? If there is a difference in musculature, then does that make the light war horse equivalent to a draft horse?
Does "riding horse" always imply a light horse, or are there heavier riding horses too?
This is something I want to understand, without pulling my hair out over it. Please help me keep the hair I have. 
Also, any designer/author should feel free to chime in with which category/ies they intended the horses they wrote about to fit into.
Thank you for your time and expertise! Or knowledgeable guesswork, I like that too! |
| 5 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 22 Oct 2012 : 07:52:14
Wow. Nah, not confusing... this is a good foundation. Thank you! |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 22:01:11
Glad for any help I can offer. I'll start with some basics (and note here that anytime I say "Medieval" period I'm using a simplified definition running from the advent of early plate and mail armors right up the the era of gothic full plate armor):
Light Horses vs. other horses: Light horses (both riding and war variety) BASICALLY breaks down to the fact that aside from training, there is little difference between the two. If you have ever seen the movie "The 13th Warrior" then you can get an idea of what a Light Horse is capable of. While small, they are much more agile and graceful...and much more acrobatic in their jumping ability.
Medieval Light Horses: these were (in the areas I'm familiar with that I mentioned in my previous post) from a wide variety of types; but to keep it simple I will say that many nobles had preference for Light Horses in their riding and hunting. A light horse does far better in the countryside where woodlands are concerned; primarily because they "fit" between trees and through rough brush/brambled areas easiest. These horses are simply smaller, and often used by the nobility and for certain wealthy merchants. They are prized for their long stamina and fleetness. A light horse is simply a small horse...but NOT a pony. It is honestly (from what I have gathered) very often just as tall as a Medium horse...but not as heavy set.
A Medium Horse can actually be nearly any height; but again, its latent agility and sure-footed nature is somewhere between a Light Horse and a Heavy Horse. Also, its strength and stamina is again somewhere between a Heavy and a Light...and Medium Horses for this reason are the most common type of horse you are going to find in the medieval world.
A Medium Horse in the Medieval period would most commonly be found doing everything from farm work (a plow horse) to carrying a merchant and/or pulling a lighter wagon/carriage. Many nobles/knights would use these types of horses to ride TO a battle (for travel purposes) if they could afford such, and the horse would most commonly not see actual battle during the later periods of truly heavy armors (for both men and horses). Boiled leather would be a common armor for such horses; sometimes covered in chain for Men-At-Arms Cavalry.
Medium Horses are the most widely varied of the three sorts; and so it really depended on what part of the world you were in. The difference between a simple "medium horse" and a "medium war horse" again depends basically on the training the horse had endured.
Heavy Horses are a special breed all of their own. These are horses found only in the domain of civilization and bred for special purpose. Today you see the mightly Clydesdale pulling a beer wagon; but at its historical "glory days" such horses were the pride and joy of wealthy warriors who not only covered their own bodies in steel armor from head to toe, but also had a great weight of metal on their horse alone for its protection.
In the modern world, Heavy Horses are show horses sometimes; but just as often they will be found used as work horses now also. In the Medieval World, really big horses could be found as Draft animals; but such horses were honestly "second rate breed" that simply didn't cut it as a War Horse...even though they could have been trained as such, they didn't have the pedigree the wealthy were looking for.
As horses were highly prized in times of warfare (many Knights and their nobles needed more than one war-horse in case their first choice were wounded or killed), the Heavy Horses of the Medieval period were primarily war-stock and demanded a great price. A French or Germanic Knight (I say germanic because germany didn't exist really) in full armor upon a truly powerful horse that was equally armored could in fact literally crush the enemy by sheer weight at the end of the horse's charge. While the English were not as well known for their rows of heavyily armored knights, their own cavalry/knights were rightly feared by any infantry opposite them.
In my own Forgotten Realms, I've began to trend toward a specific idea of where I want horses and knights; but I haven't fleshed it out completely yet.
Heavy Horses to me would not be as useful in the Forgotten Realms simply because battle-fields would not be as they are in our world. This doesn't mean they don't exist; but lines of knights rushing forward would be doomed by a simple Lightning Bolt cast down their ranks! So Heavy Horses to me would be more inclined to be Draft type animals; with only certain nations which are capable of countering magic with their own magic actually using the traditional Knights. Nations such as Cormyr obviously, but also organizations such as the Zhentilar, Red Plumes of Hillsfar, and such as that.
Other areas obviously would have heavy horses, I just haven't worked that out for myself yet since I usually play in the areas of Cormyr, Sembia, the Dales and the Moonsea.
Medium Horses to me would be the "go-to" pick for the military arm of most nations/organizations and mercenaries. Being a versatile horse, it would allow punch without the high maintenance requirements of Heavy Horses. The Dales Militias, caravans, and even humanoids might make use of Medium horses for military purposes. Nobles also, on their way to war, might ride a Medium War Horse because this would allow them to fight at a whim if called to do so, but before pitched fixed battles they could armor their heavy horse and make use of the Medium Horse as a back-up steed in war.
Light Horses to me are "fancy horses" in many places. Powerful creatures still...but more for riding and show. The Light War Horses are hardier and used for hunting (where they won't shy away from prey) or used by scouts and far ranging patrols. Almost every adventuring party I've ever DM'd also prefers Light War Horses because they require less food, have greater movement, and "fit" in the wilderness in areas I talked about above.
Of the three types of horses, Medium Horses (I think) would be the most common because they have so many uses/roles that they can cover. I seem them being used by Purple Dragons, Caravan Guards, Mercenary cavalry and even farmers.
Heavy Horses would be the rarest to me, as they can only be specially bred for various tasks. They may be used today in our world for show and hard work...but originally they were beasts of war and demanded high prices.
Light Horses would be in between the first two in regard to how easily found. They too would be special breeds, but not so much so as the Heavy Horses. Nomads (of the various places of the world) and civilized folks alike would have great need of Light Horses alongside the ability to care for them.
I could go on and on...but I may have said too much already, and in a rushed manner which may have come off as more than a little confusing. |
| xaeyruudh |
Posted - 19 Oct 2012 : 20:38:31
Thanks Dalor! I'm hoping to establish connections between the classes or categories of horses in the Realms and in our world... I hadn't thought about there being a distinction between medieval and modern horses, so that's something else to think about.
In several cases, the horses of the Realms are already put into "boxes": okay this breed is a draft horse, this one is a riding horse, this one is a warhorse, etc. In the cases where that hasn't been done, I'd like to be able to attach the right label. And that means I need a better understanding of what distinguishes the boxes.
Icelander's thread is awesome, for gathering the information that's already out there with specifics about measurements and weights. But that's kinda a step beyond me... I don't even know why each breed is placed in each heading. What defines a draft horse as different than a riding horse or war horse? Not so much what distinguishes a Dales pony from a "forest" pony; I need the general understanding before the specifics can really help me.
Incidentally, Icelander's thread adds several more terms I don't have a firm grasp on: hotblood vs coldblood (aren't they all mammals? do we have reptilian horses runnin around), hunter, courser, and destrier.
I'd like to get the riding/draft/war horse distinction cleared up *first*, particularly with the light/medium/heavy variations making things (in my mind) muddy.
Thank you to all for reading and being patient with my noobishness.  |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 21:41:45
Here ya go...try this for a start:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17027 |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 20:14:38
I know a bit about horses in our world...so I would be glad to offer that information; HOWEVER...I distinctly recall somewhere that there was Realms Specific information about the types of horses in the Forgotten Realms.
I was looking for some ancient information on the types of horses that may have existed in the area of The Ride...but fell short on that.
If you have no luck finding someone who has Realms specific information on horses (which I can't remember where I found it for the life of me...so would be interested to know too!), I'll gladly talk about everything I know concerning Medieval horses from the area of Ireland, Scotland, England, Wales and greater Scandinavia.
EDIT: as a side note, I know a great deal more about modern North American horses than medieval horses...but only because of knowledge I've gained second hand because my wife's Uncle is a world famous trainer of horses... |
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