| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jakk |
Posted - 17 Nov 2009 : 06:22:37
Edit: I placed this in its own scroll as it didn't have much (anything?) to do with Golarion, and I didn't want to derail that scroll. Mods: You're welcome. 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert in the Golarion scroll
<chop>
I did like the descriptions [of Golarion's planar locales; Jakk], and if I was running a campaign, I'd prolly do a mix-and-match of the descriptions to get the best stuff out of either -- which might go as far as dropping Planescape towns and locales within a plane into the Golarion version. 
And I certainly meant no offense on not being a fan of the overall planar structure. I'm started to read thru all the Planescape stuff now, and I grew up in 2nd Edition -- so the Wheel is a system I like and am quite familiar with. I know it's not the only way to set things up, but so far, I've not seen any alternatives that I liked as much.
I completely understand your affection for the familiar; I grew up in late 1st and 2nd Edition; 1E MM2 and Unearthed Arcana came out around the time I started playing, so the Great Wheel was quite entrenched in my gaming tradition by the time 3E Realms arrived. 1E Manual of the Planes is still my fave "THAC0-era" book.
That said, I've recently started a complete renovation of the multiverse along the lines of a hybrid of the Great Wheel and the Great Tree. I'm keeping a "hyperspherical" shape for the inner planes, and they are a hybrid of 4E and earlier models; separate Elemental Planes (and Para- and Quasi-Elemental Planes) still exist, but they all bleed together into a surrounding Elemental Chaos that is the only path from the Elemental Planes into the Ethereal Sea (which, in turn, allows passage into the Material Plane or the Astral Sea). The Shadowfell overlaps with the Ethereal Sea and the Material Plane, allows passage into the Elemental Chaos, and is the only path to the Demiplane of Imprisonment and (if you can find the path) the Far Realm (which also has a rumoured connection to the Astral Sea).
My biggest beef with the Great Wheel model of the Outer Planes was the circular-linearity of travel between their "first" layers. I saw no reason to either be that restrictive or assume that neighbouring realms are directly connected. So, as with the Great Tree and the 4E cosmology, the Outer Planes are independent realms within the Astral Sea. I am retaining their layers as described in 1E and 2E sources, with some minor tweaks. Many of the outer planes have permanent portals or gates (which may or may not always be open and functioning) connecting them, and (as before) similar means are required to travel from one "layer" of an outer plane to another. Apart from the aforementioned planar wormholes, the only way to get from one Outer Plane to another is via the Astral Sea.
Anyway, that's what I have so far. If I had ten-dimensional mapping ability, I'd draw it all out for you. Why ten dimensions? Because it fits with string theory, of course! I'm not completely ignoring science here!  |
| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jakk |
Posted - 22 Nov 2009 : 01:34:25
Thanks for the critique, Sage; I'd forgotten about those nasty loops and tears; it's been a while since I've watched any Red Dwarf ("I'm me own father!" as one example).
And your examples are solid, too... and let's not forget Tharizdun (pun intended); if his name wasn't stripped from the multiverse and Finder's was, you're absolutely correct in your characterisation of Time.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Jakk, have you ever read the section "The Multiverse" in the DM's Guide to Immortals? It's explorations into the concept of infinity and higher dimensional structures among the planes might be of some interest to you.
I have, but not in years, and I don't have the book any more. I remember it vaguely, but I really got back into the study of infinity in college when I took Philosophy of Science and encountered the work of Kurt Godel and Georg Cantor. Infinity has a way of breaking great minds, and I felt compelled to see what it would do to me. I suspect I was already cracked before I started these investigations, which may be what's saving me.
Ick. Stupid single-level clipboard; I lost a very cool musing on Azuth that I cut from my previous post here due to topic digression.  Oh well; I remember most of it. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Nov 2009 : 01:24:37
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Wooly,
The non-space you envision is very similar to the higher spatial dimensions I refer to. I've had a fondness for tesseracts and all other things hyperdimensional ever since the original Dragon article on the subject (issue #, date, and article author escape me at the moment). In essence, the planes described as coextant share the same X, Y, and Z co-ordinates, differing only in W and higher (V, U, etc) dimensions. Planes described as coterminous share pathways through those higher dimensions, and those pathways have the same X, Y, and Z co-ordinates on each mutually coterminous plane. I haven't decided yet whether going from Plane A to Plane B requires a different pathway than going from Plane B to Plane C, or if it's like a hyperdimensional staircase with landings; I like the latter concept; it's something semi-concrete and relatively easily grasped, whereas explaining the "why" of the "separate pathways" model would be like explaining the "why" of some recent canonical decisions... but I digress.
Jakk, have you ever read the section "The Multiverse" in the DM's Guide to Immortals? It's explorations into the concept of infinity and higher dimensional structures among the planes might be of some interest to you.
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Nov 2009 : 01:17:20
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I still would like someone to put it aside for a moment and provide a "when" for the Dawn Cataclysm (we know it didn't happen outside of the timestream, or the names of Amaunator and Tyche would have been stripped from the minds of Faerun, because the pantheon would never have included them, and it is the fact that we still have the names of these deities that should allow us to place a "when" on the whole event).
Not necessarily.
You're assuming that the time-continuum has a nice and tidy structure that doesn't allow for loops or tears, which can, unfortunately, provide "room" for alternate temporal possibilities to "fall through," so to speak, into the main Temporal Prime. Deities aren't perfect, and despite their best efforts at ensuring the repercussions of the Dawn Cataclysm didn't impact on the temporal structure of the Realms, something may have fallen into the main sequence of events that shape history on Toril.
Time is nothing, if not intensely fickle. And while I don't believe that the interpretation of the Dawn Cataclysm occurring outside the time-stream, to be the whole and complete picture of events, it's still just as valid as any of the other interpretations I've seen proposed elsewhere.
It's entirely possible that some example of deity-knowledge regarding Tyche and Amaunator survived, and mortals simply shaped their theories and myths around these temporal anomalies. We've seen it plenty of times in our own real-world history -- especially regarding temporal events surrounding humankind, that they did not witness themselves. We still ascribe theories about them, or know of them, even when we have the least shred of evidence.
How do we know they really happened? And who is to say that one interpretation is any more accurate than another when considering those events? Do the gods themselves know the answer? Maybe. Perhaps they've been barred from acting on that answer thanks to the enforcement of a high power, like Ao -- who attempts his best efforts to keep the time-stream as definitive as possible. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 22 Nov 2009 : 00:48:44
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
<chop>
From the changeover of the Wheel to the Tree, I adopted the idea that the Wheel isn't the actual structure, it's just how it's perceived -- mainly because of the Outlands and the gate towns. Going with that idea also allows for other planes to be scattered around, ones that aren't dominated by a philosophy. The Wheel is a philosophical construct, linking the philosophical planes (which is why the elemental planes don't have gate towns).
Indeed.
I consider Ed's take on the matter as the core of my thoughts on the subject. Specifically, that 'cosmologies' are fallible mortal maps of the same 'place'. As he once said:-
"The Great Wheel or any other cosmology doesn’t bother me, just as avatar stats and the endless “but this god came first, or can beat that god” arguments don’t: mortal PCs can’t know the truth about the gods anyway, because every in-game source (supreme priests, avatars of the gods themselves, holy writings) they could possibly learn all this stuff from is biased. Everything. So it really is all up to the DM."
I'm familiar with the quote, and I follow that ideal as well. I still would like someone to put it aside for a moment and provide a "when" for the Dawn Cataclysm (we know it didn't happen outside of the timestream, or the names of Amaunator and Tyche would have been stripped from the minds of Faerun, because the pantheon would never have included them, and it is the fact that we still have the names of these deities that should allow us to place a "when" on the whole event).
That minor quibble aside, I agree completely that any knowledge of the deities is subject to (a) limited mortal perceptions and mental capacity, (b) divine bias and censorship, and (c) the DM.
Edit: Had to copy the relevant chunk back in:
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm not as much a fan of the Wheel itself as I am of that way of looking at the planes, and the way the individual planes all fit together...
I agree that infinite planes can not, by definition, have borders or be in any kind of recognizable arrangement. That said, I do like the idea of planar overlap, which does provide a kind of border -- eventually, the lawful aspects of a lawful good plane become less important, and thus a gradual overlap into a neutral good plane would develop. If you're physically travelling from one to the other (which is really rather implausible), you'd not really notice any change -- eventually things would just start being more neutral and less lawful.
My thinking is that all of the planes exist within something else, a kind of plane that can't be reached by any known means -- a kind of non-space, if you will. This non-space allows for infinite planes, and also allows for there to be other planes, other than those of the Wheel -- like some of the variant planes from Beyond Countless Doorways (which I reviewed here).
From the changeover of the Wheel to the Tree, I adopted the idea that the Wheel isn't the actual structure, it's just how it's perceived -- mainly because of the Outlands and the gate towns. Going with that idea also allows for other planes to be scattered around, ones that aren't dominated by a philosophy. The Wheel is a philosophical construct, linking the philosophical planes (which is why the elemental planes don't have gate towns).
I also don't have a problem with linking only to the first layer of each plane. It makes sense for the Wheel -- the first layer is philosophically closer to the Outlands than later layers are. The other layers are more remote, both philosophically and in the non-space that I envision, so it's harder to make a direct connection to them.
To use a real-world analogy, look at air travel. It's certainly possible to fly directly from any city to any other -- but it's usually easier and cheaper to take connecting flights. My wife and I went from Orlando to Dublin. Most flights between those two cities go from Orlando to New York, sometimes directly, sometimes with a stop in Atlanta. Then they go from New York to Dublin. We did find a direct Orlando to Dublin flight, but as I recalled, we paid more for it than we would have with a connecting flight. And it was also a very long flight, as least for those of us not in first class.
Wooly,
The non-space you envision is very similar to the higher spatial dimensions I refer to. I've had a fondness for tesseracts and all other things hyperdimensional ever since the original Dragon article on the subject (issue #, date, and article author escape me at the moment). In essence, the planes described as coextant share the same X, Y, and Z co-ordinates, differing only in W and higher (V, U, etc) dimensions. Planes described as coterminous share pathways through those higher dimensions, and those pathways have the same X, Y, and Z co-ordinates on each mutually coterminous plane. I haven't decided yet whether going from Plane A to Plane B requires a different pathway than going from Plane B to Plane C, or if it's like a hyperdimensional staircase with landings; I like the latter concept; it's something semi-concrete and relatively easily grasped, whereas explaining the "why" of the "separate pathways" model would be like explaining the "why" of some recent canonical decisions... but I digress.
The issue with linking only to the first layer of each plane is hard for me to accept as anything but arbitrary, simply because I don't see it the way you describe it. For me, the degree or intensity of an alignment is accounted for by its distance or removal from true neutrality; otherwise, why does the Abyss have so many layers while Mechanus only has a single layer? It's not like Lawful Neutral zealots are any less extreme than Chaotic Evil zealots. I'll agree that the other layers could be perceived as more remote than the first layer, but that is only true if you accept that only the first layers of the outer planes link to the Astral Sea in the first place. That being said, I like the idea that the lower layers of the Abyss and the Nine Hells are more remote; it fits nicely with the existing pre-Spellplague body of lore for the Lower Planes, and with many of our preconceived notions. And, on a related note, the Blood War must continue... there would be a cosmological implosion without it... er... I guess that's kind of what happened... anyway, discuss.
Anyway, I've spent too long editing this post. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 18 Nov 2009 : 00:35:33
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I agree that infinite planes can not, by definition, have borders or be in any kind of recognizable arrangement. That said, I do like the idea of planar overlap, which does provide a kind of border -- eventually, the lawful aspects of a lawful good plane become less important, and thus a gradual overlap into a neutral good plane would develop. If you're physically travelling from one to the other (which is really rather implausible), you'd not really notice any change -- eventually things would just start being more neutral and less lawful.
Yes, the planes are infinite. Most outer planes have layers that are, in and of themselves, infinite within an infinite plane. Layers have realms which are also infinite [Rule of Threes].
The beauty of the Multiverse is that you can't take everything that's written at face value. You see, the planes are indeed infinite, but they're a bounded infinity. That is, it is very possible to walk around the Great Ring without ever using a portal. The Modrons do it every couple of centuries.
Because of this, there very likely are places that theoretically, nobody has ever been to. The Hinterlands of the Outlands are a good example. You can walk outward from the Spire for years, but when you turn around, you're only a short distance from the nearest gate-town, no matter how far you've gone.
quote:
My thinking is that all of the planes exist within something else, a kind of plane that can't be reached by any known means -- a kind of non-space, if you will. This non-space allows for infinite planes, and also allows for there to be other planes, other than those of the Wheel -- like some of the variant planes from Beyond Countless Doorways (which I reviewed here).
There's plenty of speculation on the matter of just where the planes exist. The idea of non-space certainly isn't new, but it's usually one I see mentioned a great deal on other planar discussion forums.
Personally, I don't like to assign any specific certainly about just "where" the planes, and the multiverse as a whole, exist. I've explored/toyed with many different and alternate explanations, from shifting planes around the periphery of the multiverse, to the planes simply being manifestations, beyond the mortal reality, of belief in an ideal, a concept, an environmental type, or whatever. Belief is power, and among the planes, it is, usually, considered the defining aspect of their realities.
As I see it now, the planes simply are. Where they exist, no mortal, deity, or force beyond [aside from the omniversal creator I suppose--though I've deliberated at length on just what a creator god can accomplish and understand when he/she/it exists within the creation itself] can truly comprehend. The planes are the greatest mystery of all existence, and their secrets aren't gleaned easily.
Heck, one of my pet theories of the origins of the Lady of Pain, suggests that she once, long ago, perceived a brief moment of "what is" beyond mortal understanding, and was "caged" in Sigil as a result.
quote:
From the changeover of the Wheel to the Tree, I adopted the idea that the Wheel isn't the actual structure, it's just how it's perceived -- mainly because of the Outlands and the gate towns. Going with that idea also allows for other planes to be scattered around, ones that aren't dominated by a philosophy. The Wheel is a philosophical construct, linking the philosophical planes (which is why the elemental planes don't have gate towns).
Indeed.
I consider Ed's take on the matter as the core of my thoughts on the subject. Specifically, that 'cosmologies' are fallible mortal maps of the same 'place'. As he once said:-
"The Great Wheel or any other cosmology doesn’t bother me, just as avatar stats and the endless “but this god came first, or can beat that god” arguments don’t: mortal PCs can’t know the truth about the gods anyway, because every in-game source (supreme priests, avatars of the gods themselves, holy writings) they could possibly learn all this stuff from is biased. Everything. So it really is all up to the DM." |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 Nov 2009 : 16:01:09
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
Edit: I placed this in its own scroll as it didn't have much (anything?) to do with Golarion, and I didn't want to derail that scroll. Mods: You're welcome.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert in the Golarion scroll
<chop>
I did like the descriptions [of Golarion's planar locales; Jakk], and if I was running a campaign, I'd prolly do a mix-and-match of the descriptions to get the best stuff out of either -- which might go as far as dropping Planescape towns and locales within a plane into the Golarion version.
And I certainly meant no offense on not being a fan of the overall planar structure. I'm started to read thru all the Planescape stuff now, and I grew up in 2nd Edition -- so the Wheel is a system I like and am quite familiar with. I know it's not the only way to set things up, but so far, I've not seen any alternatives that I liked as much.
I completely understand your affection for the familiar; I grew up in late 1st and 2nd Edition; 1E MM2 and Unearthed Arcana came out around the time I started playing, so the Great Wheel was quite entrenched in my gaming tradition by the time 3E Realms arrived. 1E Manual of the Planes is still my fave "THAC0-era" book.
That said, I've recently started a complete renovation of the multiverse along the lines of a hybrid of the Great Wheel and the Great Tree. I'm keeping a "hyperspherical" shape for the inner planes, and they are a hybrid of 4E and earlier models; separate Elemental Planes (and Para- and Quasi-Elemental Planes) still exist, but they all bleed together into a surrounding Elemental Chaos that is the only path from the Elemental Planes into the Ethereal Sea (which, in turn, allows passage into the Material Plane or the Astral Sea). The Shadowfell overlaps with the Ethereal Sea and the Material Plane, allows passage into the Elemental Chaos, and is the only path to the Demiplane of Imprisonment and (if you can find the path) the Far Realm (which also has a rumoured connection to the Astral Sea).
My biggest beef with the Great Wheel model of the Outer Planes was the circular-linearity of travel between their "first" layers. I saw no reason to either be that restrictive or assume that neighbouring realms are directly connected. So, as with the Great Tree and the 4E cosmology, the Outer Planes are independent realms within the Astral Sea. I am retaining their layers as described in 1E and 2E sources, with some minor tweaks. Many of the outer planes have permanent portals or gates (which may or may not always be open and functioning) connecting them, and (as before) similar means are required to travel from one "layer" of an outer plane to another. Apart from the aforementioned planar wormholes, the only way to get from one Outer Plane to another is via the Astral Sea.
Anyway, that's what I have so far. If I had ten-dimensional mapping ability, I'd draw it all out for you. Why ten dimensions? Because it fits with string theory, of course! I'm not completely ignoring science here!
I'm not as much a fan of the Wheel itself as I am of that way of looking at the planes, and the way the individual planes all fit together...
I agree that infinite planes can not, by definition, have borders or be in any kind of recognizable arrangement. That said, I do like the idea of planar overlap, which does provide a kind of border -- eventually, the lawful aspects of a lawful good plane become less important, and thus a gradual overlap into a neutral good plane would develop. If you're physically travelling from one to the other (which is really rather implausible), you'd not really notice any change -- eventually things would just start being more neutral and less lawful.
My thinking is that all of the planes exist within something else, a kind of plane that can't be reached by any known means -- a kind of non-space, if you will. This non-space allows for infinite planes, and also allows for there to be other planes, other than those of the Wheel -- like some of the variant planes from Beyond Countless Doorways (which I reviewed here).
From the changeover of the Wheel to the Tree, I adopted the idea that the Wheel isn't the actual structure, it's just how it's perceived -- mainly because of the Outlands and the gate towns. Going with that idea also allows for other planes to be scattered around, ones that aren't dominated by a philosophy. The Wheel is a philosophical construct, linking the philosophical planes (which is why the elemental planes don't have gate towns).
I also don't have a problem with linking only to the first layer of each plane. It makes sense for the Wheel -- the first layer is philosophically closer to the Outlands than later layers are. The other layers are more remote, both philosophically and in the non-space that I envision, so it's harder to make a direct connection to them.
To use a real-world analogy, look at air travel. It's certainly possible to fly directly from any city to any other -- but it's usually easier and cheaper to take connecting flights. My wife and I went from Orlando to Dublin. Most flights between those two cities go from Orlando to New York, sometimes directly, sometimes with a stop in Atlanta. Then they go from New York to Dublin. We did find a direct Orlando to Dublin flight, but as I recalled, we paid more for it than we would have with a connecting flight. And it was also a very long flight, as least for those of us not in first class. |
| freyar |
Posted - 17 Nov 2009 : 13:22:00
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
[quote]Anyway, that's what I have so far. If I had ten-dimensional mapping ability, I'd draw it all out for you. Why ten dimensions? Because it fits with string theory, of course!
Well, that's ONE interpretation of string theory. Seriously, if you've made the kinds of exhaustive studies I've performed on the subject, you'll soon realise just how weird and warped some of the theories on strings and multiverse conglomerations, can be. 
As a practicing professional string theorist, I both confirm and deny these allegations!
|
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 Nov 2009 : 06:40:29
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I completely understand your affection for the familiar; I grew up in late 1st and 2nd Edition; 1E MM2 and Unearthed Arcana came out around the time I started playing, so the Great Wheel was quite entrenched in my gaming tradition by the time 3E Realms arrived. 1E Manual of the Planes is still my fave "THAC0-era" book.
Aye. There's a reason I purchased two of them, when they were released. I've always loved fantasy planar concepts, and when the D&D folks eventually put all that planar stuff into one easy-to-reference source, I was ecstatic.
quote:
That said, I've recently started a complete renovation of the multiverse along the lines of a hybrid of the Great Wheel and the Great Tree. I'm keeping a "hyperspherical" shape for the inner planes, and they are a hybrid of 4E and earlier models; separate Elemental Planes (and Para- and Quasi-Elemental Planes) still exist, but they all bleed together into a surrounding Elemental Chaos that is the only path from the Elemental Planes into the Ethereal Sea (which, in turn, allows passage into the Material Plane or the Astral Sea). The Shadowfell overlaps with the Ethereal Sea and the Material Plane, allows passage into the Elemental Chaos, and is the only path to the Demiplane of Imprisonment and (if you can find the path) the Far Realm (which also has a rumoured connection to the Astral Sea).
I've been working on my own planar cosmological framework for the better part of a decade. I've spent so much of my spare time on this stuff for so long that I doubt I'll ever truly finish it. I've drawn in references from multitudes of sources, and incorporated ideas I've thought up on a whim because they fit with the overall conceptional model I've been trying to create.
I like to draw ideas from real-world cosmological thinking as well, but with slight [and sometimes, not so slight] Sage-ified tinkering when appropriate, or because real-world ideas don't quite mesh with my own. It's a lot of fun! 
quote:
Anyway, that's what I have so far. If I had ten-dimensional mapping ability, I'd draw it all out for you. Why ten dimensions? Because it fits with string theory, of course!
Well, that's ONE interpretation of string theory. Seriously, if you've made the kinds of exhaustive studies I've performed on the subject, you'll soon realise just how weird and warped some of the theories on strings and multiverse conglomerations, can be. |
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