| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 09:33:13
get locked : / I know this isn't my website but those who manage this website seem to lock, delete, and censure EVERYTHING!  There is already so little traffic here and whenever there something to talk about it gets shut down. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 13:17:05
I am voting to have the thread in question OPENED! I agree with MrHedgehog, there's nothing wrong with it. |
| BEAST |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 10:25:55
There is no reason why "every thread" allegedly gets locked, because not every thread actually does get locked--only some.
I'd like to point out that I publicly argued with other posters who cited Ed, and then with Ed, himself, on the official date of some old drow lore, here. The conversation was never locked, but rather, was allowed to run its course, even though it was very obvious people were getting annoyed with each other and the subject.
That's because everybody concerned 1) remembered the rules and 2) stayed on topic. So it's quite possible to be controversial here and avoid thread lockage. Those that have been locked have probably all failed in one of the two above ways. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 10:23:22
Never can make a scroll stay fully on topic, there is drift from times to time.
Realms is not Earth, nor directly related. Yes a few have traveled between the two planets. Yes humans appear to live of both planets (Or what to appear to be human from the Realms appear to Earthers to be human), that does not make the Realms Earth.
The Realms can not build a hydroelectric plant because electricity does not work the same way in the Realms as it does on Earth. Yes some things in the Realms are much like Earth. one of the big difference is the Realms has a very high literacy rate, know that deities exist and are very accepting of different lifestyles (except when other lifestyle includes killing self or kin).
Transgender clearly might occur in the Realms, however there is a quick fix to that. No ten years of consoling, no 3 years of drugs and surgery (if done that quickly). No condemnation by the others about you because you think different.
It is not an "earth like universe" |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 02 Jan 2012 : 06:31:20
Kentinal - I didn't have the opportunity to reply and this is maybe not the thread to discuss it...but I will anyways!
I think the realms are directly related to Earth. That is what the Forgotten Realms ARE, a place connected to Earth. Hence why there are earth born deities and many of the cultures are so similar. How else would Elminister visit us here ;) The Forgotten Realms are a fantasy setting that very closely resembles the real world, and in my opinion it is safe to say many things that exist in Earth would exist in the realms. No one would tell me "Its the REALMS just because that exists on Earth doesn't mean it will in the realms" if I said people dry fish, hunt seals, or any number of things that aren't described as occuring in the realms but we can safely assume they do based on the fact that its an earth like universe. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 21:54:03
Wolf, the discussion has occurred in some part here, in discussion of that locked thread. I have comments that I could and maybe should reply to in this thread, however have been waiting concerning the other as it is likely I was part of the lock down. |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 16 Dec 2011 : 16:37:54
I'd like to share a couple of humble observations and ask a question. I realize I'm new to the forum and may not have the depth of understanding of the more senior scribes but, I'd like to ask my question anyway as a rhetorical with no need of a particular answer.
I signed on this morning and used the Active Topics function. Since joining, I've routinely read every active topic, though I may not feel I have anything worthwhile to contribute.
It seems to me that this scroll closely resembles two others that have seen some activity recently.
You'd have to roll a natural one to miss your spot check and not notice that someone has cast Dimension Door on the 'Transgenderism in the Realms' scroll and allowed part of that discussion to move from its current stasis to this scroll.
In addition, I get the feeling that this scroll also has elements of the 'How Gritty Should the Realms Be?' discussion with the comments and responses made about various other 'gritty' topics.
So here is my question: Since we are all, by appearance anyway and barring the premise of a successful polymorph or alter self spell, adults, is it possible for us to realize that various campaigns run by different people, set in the world we all enjoy, might have a greater or fewer number of elements individual people may feel should or should not be included for the purposes of good story telling and adventuring?
DISCLAIMER: I am probably the least politically correct individual I know. My chosen profession doesn't leave room for useless and pointless speech, which has a tendancy to spin the facts and cause people to become mentally paralyzed and unable to make a decision because they're worried that someone may file a 'Hurt Feelings Report' over something that was said. I tend to be straight forward and blunt - sometimes, almost to the point of fault.
PS: For those with a sophisticated sense of humor, you undoubtedly appreciate my grasp of the literary tool irony and the use of it to offset my reply and the Disclaimer.
PPS: Once the fate of the 'Transgenderism' scroll is determined and if the discussion is allowed to proceed, I have a rather poignant observation which I may decide to share.
Good Hunting! |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 23:26:49
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
It was not my intention to cause an argument or to troll when I created the thread in question. I thought out what to write for the thread with the intention of discussing it, not to make people upset. I thought it was a legitimate topic that hadn't been discussed before, not something that is "continually" discussed.The realms consists more than just game statistics and numbers. I view it as a fantasy world people choose to escape into in ways other than just to fight monster and find treasure, its a complex world people imagine as being complete.
I also welcome such perspectives on the Realms. Which is why I've only temporarily sealed the "Transgenderism" scroll.
Really, the only reason I acted so quickly [and, perhaps, a little too abruptly], was due mainly to the highly disruptive and frequent-dipping-into-real-world-beliefs that plagued the ends of both the "Gay Marriage in the Realms" and "Drow Incest" scrolls. These previous discussions often failed to differentiate between what was strictly the Realms, and what was an real-world perspective. I just didn't want the same thing to happen again so soon with another, potentially, real-world-based topic.
I think all who regularly contribute to these halls know that both Wooly and I find sealing scrolls to be among the most difficult and, sometimes, harrowing, duty of being a Moderator. It takes a considerable amount of discussion and debate about what course to take about a particular scroll and it's [only very rarely] content that would seem to brush up against the tenets of the site's Code of Conduct.
In the instance of the "Transgenderism" scroll though, I acted pre-emptively, simply because it has come so soon after those other contested topics I spoke of earlier. One of which, as a consequence of being re-opened after a period of temporary-sealing, fell back into the same problems that plagued it before the initial closing of the scroll. Which, unfortunately, resulted in a permanent sealing.
If you wish to discuss this matter further, MrHedgehog, I welcome any and all input. Feel free to contact me via private message, email, or even in this scroll, should you desire any additional issues which may need to be addressed. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 18:42:32
MrHedgehog, use of troll and antagonist in my above post was only in response to the OP question, not any accusation directed against you, certainly not based on your statements in this scroll at the time of writing.quote:
It seems unfair that everyone is silence when someone replies with attacks because they don't like a topic. What a "perversion" is a subjective opinion. Many things that are considered OK to discuss are considered to be perversions by some. (Half-elves?? Interspecies marriage?? How perverse!)
Perversion was not an ideal word for me to select above, no attack nor insult intended. I simply wanted a word which meant "outside or unlike the normal pattern of the majority" - perhaps anomalous, abnormal, deviant, or weird would be better ... but these can present some insulting meanings as well, and let's face it, no word or phrase would express what I wanted to state without carrying additional unintended insult.
To elaborate, the basic fact is that while transgenderism is of central importance and dominates the lives of some few individuals, the overwhelming majority are utterly unconcerned with it, it's so far out of our "normal" experience that we don't really even think about it, most of us are quite well aware and reasonably satisfied with the gender assignment of the 1d2 character generation roll determined at our birth. Certainly this doesn't make transgender issues less significant for the few, yet I don't see why there should be a persistently fanatical campaign to endlessly confront the many into taking a stand, why something which in our world affects a decidedly small fraction of the population should constantly command front-and-center stage on everyone's agenda.
In any event, I expect transgenderism is a complete non-issue in D&D and the Realms. Magic can arbitrarily (re)assign gender, polymorph and illusion spells are common, several NPCs of note are known to have switched genders for years at a time, some shapeshifters adopt different genders on a frequent basis. It's a topic which was interesting and provocative discussion the first time, it's gotten rather dull now that dozens of scrolls have, in the end, focussed on little else. If one has a preference towards focussing on transgender issues in a homebrew setting then absolutely go for it and have fun; if one wants to appeal to Realms designers/authors to effect some changes in canon then there are better methods; if one simply wants to make it into an issue to argue over then I submit that this scroll alone would indicate Candlekeep's scribes have generally heard enough about the topic and would like to move on to others.
Topics such as sex in the Realms, which NPCs are sleeping with each other, scandalous pagan ceremonies, and similar stuff are inevitable and even expected. From time to time they can be very interesting, provided they're not endless repetitions of the same hopefully lurid erotica just hopping from scroll to scroll. There are plenty of other sites and forums dedicated to servicing those needs better.
I apply much harsher personal judgement against constant discussions about things like incest and rape and torture in the Realms, or oddball discussions which focus on bizarre things like how a shapechanged druid's genitalia are altered and whether he can conceive children with animals while in altered form ... to such things I bluntly add a very unambiguous comment that if someone is obsessed and fixated on generating such topics, to the point where conducting other conversation is seemingly impossible, then there is a very real and a very serious need to seek some social or psychological help. Again, Candlekeep and the Realms are not particularly well-suited outlets for such stuff.
Repeating the old standby claim that such topics are of dire importance and should be allowed because we already routinely talk about violence and murder has become a rather tiresome and shallow litany, this is an argument which has itself been done to death, and cowering behind a shield of dogma tells me nothing new except that the scribe isn't willing to put real thought into an insightful exploration of the Realms, but is instead looking for an argument he can "win" or just trying to troll (provoke) an impassioned response from foolish respondants.
For the record I would normally ignore this scroll, and I think it has sufficient controversial potential to end up padlocked like so many others. My participation is not a direct response to trolling but is an attempt to offer my answers (opinions) to what I feel are some very valid questions which have been too long ignored (awkwardedly unspoken and uncomfortably tolerated) here at Candlekeep. Candlekeep's Code of Conduct can be basically summarized as an agreement to behave in a mature and respectful fashion, it's not a complex idea and for most of us doesn't even need to be formally codified into a list of commandments; just like any other social compact it has flaws and exceptions and cannot possibly apply to every conceivable situation ... I've noticed countless instances where our mods have deliberately overlooked trivial offenses rather than call attention to them, they are a little slack when everybody plays nice, and I congratulate them on being able to (generally) maintain the standards of this community. Having said that, the rules do exist for a reason and they are enforced from time to time (when more tactful approaches have failed), and I have never seen an instance of padlocking or banning at the keep which was disagreeably offensive. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 15:01:46
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
(This is the "off topic" section of the forum, isn't it?)
It was not my intention to cause an argument or to troll when I created the thread in question. I thought out what to write for the thread with the intention of discussing it, not to make people upset. I thought it was a legitimate topic that hadn't been discussed before, not something that is "continually" discussed.The realms consists more than just game statistics and numbers. I view it as a fantasy world people choose to escape into in ways other than just to fight monster and find treasure, its a complex world people imagine as being complete. @Entreri, If you don't think a topic is not worth discussing could you just not ignore the topic?
Transgenderism is something that would exist in any place with humans. It seems bizzare to me that its being labelled a "fetish" or "perversion" and that it would only be mentioned in sex themed D&D play... Who is trolling the person who discusses something, or the person who is insulting people? Its not a "fetish" to be transgendered, its another potential aspect of the realms. You could refer to it as "gender dysphoria" if you want to be clinical, but calling it a perversion seems down right insulting and degrading. I don't think what I wrote was in any way me being an inappropriate pervert. It occurred to me to make the thread because someone that I play with is transgendered. Its something people currently talk a lot about in the media, at my university, and so forth so it popped into my head. I was curious about how people would view it fitting into the realms, or if aside from the "change dance" there was any mention of it by those who have contributed to the creation of the realms, especially Ed Greenwood. It baffles me that while we discuss demons, vampires, torture, murder, slavery, war, and those things are all safe things to talk about, something like gender changing is taboo.
It seems unfair that everyone is silence when someone replies with attacks because they don't like a topic. What a "perversion" is a subjective opinion. Many things that are considered OK to discuss are considered to be perversions by some. (Half-elves?? Interspecies marriage?? How perverse!)
Believe me, i ignore plenty of threads on here. I just find it odd that out of all of the potential things to discuss about a fantasy setting, that people settle on incest/transgenderism/etc. The only thing i have heard in the media regarding transgenderism is that those individuals usually have severe psychological problems usually manifesting from abuse. |
| MrHedgehog |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 09:07:15
(This is the "off topic" section of the forum, isn't it?)
It was not my intention to cause an argument or to troll when I created the thread in question. I thought out what to write for the thread with the intention of discussing it, not to make people upset. I thought it was a legitimate topic that hadn't been discussed before, not something that is "continually" discussed.The realms consists more than just game statistics and numbers. I view it as a fantasy world people choose to escape into in ways other than just to fight monster and find treasure, its a complex world people imagine as being complete. @Entreri, If you don't think a topic is not worth discussing could you just not ignore the topic?
Transgenderism is something that would exist in any place with humans. It seems bizzare to me that its being labelled a "fetish" or "perversion" and that it would only be mentioned in sex themed D&D play... Who is trolling the person who discusses something, or the person who is insulting people? Its not a "fetish" to be transgendered, its another potential aspect of the realms. You could refer to it as "gender dysphoria" if you want to be clinical, but calling it a perversion seems down right insulting and degrading. I don't think what I wrote was in any way me being an inappropriate pervert. It occurred to me to make the thread because someone that I play with is transgendered. Its something people currently talk a lot about in the media, at my university, and so forth so it popped into my head. I was curious about how people would view it fitting into the realms, or if aside from the "change dance" there was any mention of it by those who have contributed to the creation of the realms, especially Ed Greenwood. It baffles me that while we discuss demons, vampires, torture, murder, slavery, war, and those things are all safe things to talk about, something like gender changing is taboo.
It seems unfair that everyone is silence when someone replies with attacks because they don't like a topic. What a "perversion" is a subjective opinion. Many things that are considered OK to discuss are considered to be perversions by some. (Half-elves?? Interspecies marriage?? How perverse!) |
| scererar |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 02:57:00
I agree with the rest. Rarely are threads locked and before they are numerous warnings are usually provided. The mods have been doing a great job keeping things moving along since I have been hanging around here going back to 05. |
| Brimstone |
Posted - 09 Dec 2011 : 00:56:21
Occupycandlekeep! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 22:23:38
quote:
Originally posted by Seravin
I did find it amusing that saying the s word with a lot of hhhhs in a humorous way got turned into "poopy pants" by one of the mods "because of the children! Won't someone PLEASE think of the children!". I didn't realize I was in the 2nd grade on these boards. Of course, a long thread on incest of dark elves is fine for kids though.
Perish forbid the s word, known and used in PG rated movies is used. No big deal, I won't even fake swear on here, just on topic with the thread of moderators being a little heavy handed and hypocritical at times.
It's in the Candlekeep Code of Conduct -- it explicitly states that profanity is forbidden. If you've got a problem with those rules, you need to take that up with Big Al.
It is neither heavy-handed nor hypocritical of us to enforce explicitly written rules. |
| Seravin |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 20:10:58
I did find it amusing that saying the s word with a lot of hhhhs in a humorous way got turned into "poopy pants" by one of the mods "because of the children! Won't someone PLEASE think of the children!". I didn't realize I was in the 2nd grade on these boards. Of course, a long thread on incest of dark elves is fine for kids though.
Perish forbid the s word, known and used in PG rated movies is used. No big deal, I won't even fake swear on here, just on topic with the thread of moderators being a little heavy handed and hypocritical at times. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 19:49:10
Well I helped likely to seal the last locked thread.
Complaining about a too heavy moderation policy is misguided and false. For some of my posts I would , if moderator, issued a warning and possible delete post.
There is nothing important here to discuss in my opinion. Just a user venting about a thread locked. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 19:11:54
I'll also note -- as I believe I've already noted before -- that except in extreme cases, there is always behind-the-scenes discussion on a thread before we do more than issue a warning. Often, there is discussion before a warning is issued.
Even among the few threads that do get closed, it's very rare that it happens without prior discussion amongst the moderators. And it has happened before that a thread remained open even though a mod thought it should be closed, because there was not a consensus on that. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 15:16:00
Only about 1% of the total number of threads are closed. Not that alarming. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 15:06:04
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
get locked : / I know this isn't my website but those who manage this website seem to lock, delete, and censure EVERYTHING! There is already so little traffic here and whenever there something to talk about it gets shut down.
Rest assured, the fate of the scroll in question is currently under review. Thus, the temporary sealing, as I previously noted in the "Transgenderism" scroll.
I've received considered input from several scribes on the issue of it's pre-emptive closing, and I'm presently discussing it with Alaundo to decide how best to proceed.
Once a decision has been made, I'll post it here. |
| Farrel |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 14:54:54
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
About 99% of the scrolls I've seen padlocked first received a great deal of attention from the mods: they posted numerous public cautions and outright warnings, vague and specific. Probably numerous private warnings as well to the most argumentive and antagonistic participants.
To be honest, I personally feel that our mods are sometimes too tolerant. I've seen them baited by antagonistic trolls who were obvious a mile away. I've seen the mods get mired into unproductive arguments with stubborn asses who will not accept any challenge to their "rightness". I suspect our mods can spot these things just as easily as I (and everybody else) can, but are of course still constrained to observe the proper rules and procedure. Besides, I've been wrong about 1d10% of the time, so I would've personally misjudged or banned a few scribes worth keeping around.
I have to question why scrolls continually discussing things like incest, gender identification, (homo)sexuality, and the activities of sex demons/vamps keep on appearing ... maybe I'm a straight unexciting old prude ... but honestly this site is meant to be dedicated to discussing the Forgotten Realms setting and D&D gaming, it's not a fetish/fantasy site catering to D&D-themed sexplay and perversions. And insofar as Ed's sexual preferences, activities, and history ... I mean, seriously people, grow up instead of living vicariously through a dirty old man.
Very well put, I Agree 100% |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 14:25:12
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
About 99% of the scrolls I've seen padlocked first received a great deal of attention from the mods: they posted numerous public cautions and outright warnings, vague and specific. Probably numerous private warnings as well to the most argumentive and antagonistic participants.
To be honest, I personally feel that our mods are sometimes too tolerant. I've seen them baited by antagonistic trolls who were obvious a mile away. I've seen the mods get mired into unproductive arguments with stubborn asses who will not accept any challenge to their "rightness". I suspect our mods can spot these things just as easily as I (and everybody else) can, but are of course still constrained to observe the proper rules and procedure. Besides, I've been wrong about 1d10% of the time, so I would've personally misjudged or banned a few scribes worth keeping around.
I have to question why scrolls continually discussing things like incest, gender identification, (homo)sexuality, and the activities of sex demons/vamps keep on appearing ... maybe I'm a straight unexciting old prude ... but honestly this site is meant to be dedicated to discussing the Forgotten Realms setting and D&D gaming, it's not a fetish/fantasy site catering to D&D-themed sexplay and perversions. And insofar as Ed's sexual preferences, activities, and history ... I mean, seriously people, grow up instead of living vicariously through a dirty old man.
Well said sir! |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 14:07:44
About 99% of the scrolls I've seen padlocked first received a great deal of attention from the mods: they posted numerous public cautions and outright warnings, vague and specific. Probably numerous private warnings as well to the most argumentive and antagonistic participants.
To be honest, I personally feel that our mods are sometimes too tolerant. I've seen them baited by antagonistic trolls who were obvious a mile away. I've seen the mods get mired into unproductive arguments with stubborn asses who will not accept any challenge to their "rightness". I suspect our mods can spot these things just as easily as I (and everybody else) can, but are of course still constrained to observe the proper rules and procedure. Besides, I've been wrong about 1d10% of the time, so I would've personally misjudged or banned a few scribes worth keeping around.
I have to question why scrolls continually discussing things like incest, gender identification, (homo)sexuality, and the activities of sex demons/vamps keep on appearing ... maybe I'm a straight unexciting old prude ... but honestly this site is meant to be dedicated to discussing the Forgotten Realms setting and D&D gaming, it's not a fetish/fantasy site catering to D&D-themed sexplay and perversions. And insofar as Ed's sexual preferences, activities, and history ... I mean, seriously people, grow up instead of living vicariously through a dirty old man. |
| Artemas Entreri |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 13:51:05
quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
get locked : / I know this isn't my website but those who manage this website seem to lock, delete, and censure EVERYTHING! There is already so little traffic here and whenever there something to talk about it gets shut down.
Are you complaining that your thread about "Sex Changes in the Realms" got locked? I think we can find better Realms-related things to discuss |
| Light |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 11:41:01
Yeah. I haven't been here long I admit but I think I've only found 2 or 3 locked threads. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 10:49:41
There are a huge number of threads that don't get locked... The vast majority of threads don't even get as much as a glare from myself and the other mods. Maybe a fraction of 1% of the threads get mod attention.
We get maybe one thread a month locked -- if that frequent. And it's usually because it's some sensitive topic that someone refuses to discuss in a reasonable manner. |
| Thelonius |
Posted - 08 Dec 2011 : 09:48:19
Well to be honest, I've been here since 2004 and I don't remember many threads closed for other reasons than too much off-topic chatting or ranting... |
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