| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jespin |
Posted - 02 Oct 2007 : 23:38:50
Without Halister around whats going to happen to the Manshoon clone that was mentioned in the FRSC? Do you think he will be the new Lord of th Under Mountain or leave in search of greener pastures?
Mod edit: Fixed misspelling of Undermountain in the title, so that this scroll can be more readily found in future searches.  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 Jan 2012 : 04:06:27
Thanks, Jakk and Sage. I vaguely recall a mention of it Lost Empires of Faerūn (which I didn't really read from cover to cover), but I'm away from my library right now. I'll check it later. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 22 Jan 2012 : 04:05:34
See? I told you they could!  Thanks for the memory-assist, Sage!  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Jan 2012 : 04:02:43
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Other than The Grand History of the Realms and Lands of Intrigue, where else can I read about the Shoon Dynasty?
Steven Schend's Empires of the Shining Sea remains one of the more detailed sources.
The older Empires of the Sands also has some focus on the Shoon. As does the Calimport accessory. For 3e, there's Lost Empires of Faerūn. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 22 Jan 2012 : 04:01:57
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Other than The Grand History of the Realms and Lands of Intrigue, where else can I read about the Shoon Dynasty?
For relatively current sources, that's about it, I think... there's more in the 1E/2E sources... one of which is also titled Lands of Intrigue... and the titles of the others escape me for the moment; I'm sure Wooly or The Sage can add more. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 22 Jan 2012 : 03:59:20
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
<snip>
Personally, I think some tend to place a little too much emphasis on the "Shoon" component of Manshoon. I'm not saying Manshoon would ignore his Shoonach heritage, but at the same time, he's very much a self-made man [mage].
Manshoon rose to his position of power because of his being Manshoon. Not because he's relied on his heritage. He's forged his might, his power, and his position solely through his own initiative. I don't discount the possibility that he's probably borrowed from his Shoon heritage at one time or another, but I suspect he would never totally rely on just that to establish himself. It would be too much of a target for his MANY enemies to exploit. And I think everything we've learned about him -- either through Ed or his detailing in various sources -- confirms that.
I agree entirely; that's especially clear in Elminster Must Die! and Bury Elminster Deep... I'd primarily just like to know what made him that way, and a novel of his early years from Ed would serve that purpose. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 Jan 2012 : 03:52:33
Other than The Grand History of the Realms and Lands of Intrigue, where else can I read about the Shoon Dynasty? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Jan 2012 : 02:57:49
Krash once told us that "Manshoon's family was originally from those parts, but Manshoon's personal history is almost purely Moonsea. What he did after he became Manshoon of the Zhentarim, well I'm guessing he may have visited the ancestral home ... in Shoonach ... once or twice. He certainly had a spell cache there as I understand and "Cloak & Dagger" alludes to him getting stuff from there after the clones ran amok."
...
Personally, I think some tend to place a little too much emphasis on the "Shoon" component of Manshoon. I'm not saying Manshoon would ignore his Shoonach heritage, but at the same time, he's very much a self-made man [mage].
Manshoon rose to his position of power because of his being Manshoon. Not because he's relied on his heritage. He's forged his might, his power, and his position solely through his own initiative. I don't discount the possibility that he's probably borrowed from his Shoon heritage at one time or another, but I suspect he would never totally rely on just that to establish himself. It would be too much of a target for his MANY enemies to exploit. And I think everything we've learned about him -- either through Ed or his detailing in various sources -- confirms that. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 22 Jan 2012 : 02:48:36
No, he's a descendant, from what I gathered... but it wasn't clear how many generations removed he was, or even if he was a direct descendant. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 Jan 2012 : 02:40:50
Hmm. I didn't know that. Did Ed expand a little on it? Don't tell me Manshoon is the originator of that dynasty. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 22 Jan 2012 : 01:59:28
And Dennis raises another point with his latest post... we know, from what Ed has said in the past, that Manshoon is related to the Shoon dynasty of the South, but there has never been more than this. This is another area in which I'd like to have some answers... perhaps in a novel about Manshoon's early years, if WotC is going to open up the entire timeline to projects? Yes... that would be some very tasty Realmslore goodness... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 22 Jan 2012 : 01:45:39
Even so, Shoon is a mage(?) of some power, and in a Halashoon clone, I'm sure some tiny vestige of him would still be present, and perhaps even surface at times. And that is something I personally do not want to see. I'd rather wish Halaster would not "return" if he were to assume such identity. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 22 Jan 2012 : 01:26:27
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I know this is an old scroll, but found it while searching for something else. It made me think. If Manshoon was holed up with Halaster for a time, perhaps he traded his spell statis clone to Halaster for refuge. Blamo, we can have Halaster back in 5E.
Halaster officially had had his soul blown to bits. I've speculated that perhaps Manshoon could have collected some or all of these bits, and wound up partially joining with Halaster, creating a new entity. 
I also want Halaster back, but not as part-Manshoon. Being an Imaskari archmage, he might have done what his "peer" Madryoch had.
You're assuming that the merged Halashoon would be all about Manshoon.
I don't necessarily see it that way. Halaster was a powerful and ancient arcane force -- certainly when compared to the "upstart" Manshoon. Thus, I don't believe the merged Manshoon element of the Halaster gestalt could ever properly come to dominate the Halaster half.
In fact, I'd go so far as to assume that as the Halashoon merger reclaims all the dispersed parts of Halaster's former being, he returns more to his old self with each aspect of his shattered power that he recovers.
He'll be the old Halaster, again, only in the Manshoon clone's body. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 21:49:39
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Hi again, all.
<snip>
Ed did indeed choose his words VERY carefully. And continues to do so. 
love,
THO
So... does this mean that we can expect some results from these long-standing NDAs on Halaster? Say, within the calendar year? Please? |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 17:31:42
Hi again, all.
Wolfhound75, your words here are both correct and should be heeded by all interested in Halaster:
"Complete wild and wooly speculation here (cowboy term, not aimed at the illustrious Wooly) but, since Ed has specifically said Halaster was NOT a chosen of Mystra, and went no further, it leaves the door open to speculate.
I get the feeling that Ed was very specific in choosing which words and how to use them when talking about Halaster [and not just because of NDAs]. So what we really know is exactly what Ed said; Halaster is NOT a chosen. And that is all we know for certain. We can infer exactly what Sage said above, he [was] something. That leaves us with the question:
What is/was Halaster then?"
Ed did indeed choose his words VERY carefully. And continues to do so.
love,
THO
|
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 16:47:58
quote:
Originally posted by Wolfhound75
That leaves us with the question:
What is/was Halaster then?
A gibbering old mage on the verge of complete insanity.
Seriously, though, I must agree with Wooly on this. It would be better to establish that he didn't die at all, than bringing him back to life. Many folks consider resurrection too convenient and too cheap. |
| Wolfhound75 |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 16:24:23
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
[quote]Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
...
Ed has specifically said, in more then one reply here at Candlekeep, that although Halaster was NOT a Chosen of Mystra, we do know he is [was] something, and that something may have indicated that she did have future plans for him.
....
Complete wild and wooly speculation here (cowboy term, not aimed at the illustrious Wooly) but, since Ed has specifically said Halaster was NOT a chosen of Mystra, and went no further, it leaves the door open to speculate.
I get the feeling that Ed was very specific in choosing which words and how to use them when talking about Halaster [and not just because of NDAs]. So what we really know is exactly what Ed said; Halaster is NOT a chosen. And that is all we know for certain. We can infer exactly what Sage said above, he [was] something. That leaves us with the question:
What is/was Halaster then?
I'd like to speculate - mostly because I love this character and can scarcely envision the realms without him - that he was in fact one of two possibilities. Either of which could lead, through Ed's greatness with Realmslore, to seeing him eventually return from a shattered soul. The first possibility could also explain his unusually long life span. And the second, besides being a bit out in orbit grasping at straws to keep a much loved character around, is also possible but I admit rather unlikely. So here are my speculations.
What if Halaster, while not being Chosen, was in fact, a lover or son of the Mystara/Mystra/Midnight line. Akin to Greek mythology in how, for the roll of lover, Danae (daughter of king Acrisius of Argos) gave birth to Perseus who was the son of Zeus, or in the son roll, would be akin to Perseus himself. True, the latter would make hime something of a demi-god but, like I said, would explain his unnaturally long life span. However, being crazy and lacking worshipers, gives me room to speculate that he, like Perseus, perhaps denied his heritage and reflected more mortal traits; leaving him open to the fate that befell him.
The second is, admittedly, out there so if you don't want to join me and several others in Loco Land, stop reading now and skip to my usual closing. Walking on the wild side, what if Halaster was something like an Avatar - perhaps the crazy side of a divine multiple personality disorder of the Mystara-line. Super crazy, yes. However, it's Saturday and for once my "Honey-Do" list is all caught up so I have some time to amble aimlessly.
Good Hunting! |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 15:58:04
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I know this is an old scroll, but found it while searching for something else. It made me think. If Manshoon was holed up with Halaster for a time, perhaps he traded his spell statis clone to Halaster for refuge. Blamo, we can have Halaster back in 5E.
Halaster officially had had his soul blown to bits. I've speculated that perhaps Manshoon could have collected some or all of these bits, and wound up partially joining with Halaster, creating a new entity.
I also want Halaster back, but not as part-Manshoon. Being an Imaskari archmage, he might have done what his "peer" Madryoch had.
Well, my preference is that he never died, and that Undermountain remains as deadly as ever. I cannot begin to say how much I dislike the idea of Undermountain becoming just another Waterdhavian neighborhood.
That's better than merging with Shoon. And knowing me, I suppose you can guess why.
I was going to suggest that he become one with Aumvor the Undying. But then, who would want to share a body with a bloated lich? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 15:28:22
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I know this is an old scroll, but found it while searching for something else. It made me think. If Manshoon was holed up with Halaster for a time, perhaps he traded his spell statis clone to Halaster for refuge. Blamo, we can have Halaster back in 5E.
Halaster officially had had his soul blown to bits. I've speculated that perhaps Manshoon could have collected some or all of these bits, and wound up partially joining with Halaster, creating a new entity.
I also want Halaster back, but not as part-Manshoon. Being an Imaskari archmage, he might have done what his "peer" Madryoch had.
Well, my preference is that he never died, and that Undermountain remains as deadly as ever. I cannot begin to say how much I dislike the idea of Undermountain becoming just another Waterdhavian neighborhood. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 07:43:08
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I know this is an old scroll, but found it while searching for something else. It made me think. If Manshoon was holed up with Halaster for a time, perhaps he traded his spell statis clone to Halaster for refuge. Blamo, we can have Halaster back in 5E.
Halaster officially had had his soul blown to bits. I've speculated that perhaps Manshoon could have collected some or all of these bits, and wound up partially joining with Halaster, creating a new entity.
I also want Halaster back, but not as part-Manshoon. Being an Imaskari archmage, he might have done what his "peer" Madryoch had. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 05:44:39
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I've speculated that perhaps Manshoon could have collected some or all of these bits, and wound up partially joining with Halaster, creating a new entity.
And I still invest myself somewhat in tidbits Ed has shared in the past, about Halaster, when formulating my own plan for his return.
Ed has specifically said, in more then one reply here at Candlekeep, that although Halaster was NOT a Chosen of Mystra, we do know he is [was] something, and that something may have indicated that she did have future plans for him.
And Ed has also noted that most of the Manshoon clones tend to follow the original Manshoon's example of having extensive fall-back plans and caches and strategies set in motion.
So, couple this with the possibility of Mystra's future plan for Halaster, and perhaps the gestalt of Halashoon/Manster is the result of the former Manshoon clone triggering some hidden secret of the Mad Mage... all while he was enacting his own planned contingencies put in place throughout Undermountain [to be initiated if and when Halaster were to ever die or be destroyed].
The corrupted path of Mystra's future plan for Halaster is now diverted by the gestalt Halashoon who seeks to reclaim all those lost parts of the original Halaster that lay scattered throughout Undermountain, and the destruction of other Manshoon clones across the Realms. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 05:00:08
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I know this is an old scroll, but found it while searching for something else. It made me think. If Manshoon was holed up with Halaster for a time, perhaps he traded his spell statis clone to Halaster for refuge. Blamo, we can have Halaster back in 5E.
Halaster officially had had his soul blown to bits. I've speculated that perhaps Manshoon could have collected some or all of these bits, and wound up partially joining with Halaster, creating a new entity.
There are other ways to get Halaster back, too, and I'm not (for once) talking about ignoring canon. See my most recent posts in Paul Kemp's scroll (specifically the spoiler-hidden part) for more, if you dare... Oh, and if you haven't yet read Mr. Kemp's Twilight War trilogy and plan to, don't read the spoiler I've referred you to, as it refers to the epilogue of the third book... about as close to the end as you can get. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 04:32:34
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
I know this is an old scroll, but found it while searching for something else. It made me think. If Manshoon was holed up with Halaster for a time, perhaps he traded his spell statis clone to Halaster for refuge. Blamo, we can have Halaster back in 5E.
Halaster officially had had his soul blown to bits. I've speculated that perhaps Manshoon could have collected some or all of these bits, and wound up partially joining with Halaster, creating a new entity. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 21 Jan 2012 : 03:59:20
I know this is an old scroll, but found it while searching for something else. It made me think. If Manshoon was holed up with Halaster for a time, perhaps he traded his spell statis clone to Halaster for refuge. Blamo, we can have Halaster back in 5E. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 08:30:05
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
I guess it was just my perception of reading through the timeline of events regarding the Realms' very own "Clone Wars" (in case I hadn't mentioned, I love timelines)... it seemed like every second event had a Manshoon clone or a pile of them getting magically obliterated in some manner. And in another way, looking back on the whole sordid affair, it was rather Keystone-Kops-ish. Given that Fzoul is now an exarch of Bane, I suspect that Manshoon won't be getting his revenge... assuming that he's still around in 4E; anyone know one way or the other?
Only the Manshoon clone, as Orbakh the Night King, remains in the 4e Realms. The clone with Halaster was destroyed during the Spellplague, and the third remaining clone was killed during the Netherese assault on Zhentil Keep. |
| Jakk |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 07:16:32
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I'm a little curious as to why you feel this way... The Manshoon Wars were only presented in one supplement; by the next supplement, they were over and had pretty much been brushed aside. I'm not understanding out how it could have gotten old quickly when it was killed without ever being followed up on. 
I guess it was just my perception of reading through the timeline of events regarding the Realms' very own "Clone Wars" (in case I hadn't mentioned, I love timelines)... it seemed like every second event had a Manshoon clone or a pile of them getting magically obliterated in some manner. And in another way, looking back on the whole sordid affair, it was rather Keystone-Kops-ish. Given that Fzoul is now an exarch of Bane, I suspect that Manshoon won't be getting his revenge... assuming that he's still around in 4E; anyone know one way or the other? |
| Jakk |
Posted - 09 Oct 2008 : 06:57:19
As a side note: I know I'm joining this debate rather late, but still...
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Hmmmm... So which do you prefer -- Halashoon or Manster? 
After several days of consideration of the merits of both, I vote for...
Manhalashoonster!
Although Mr. Schend's offering has a certain amount of panache as well... still, unless there's definitely a Manshoon clone alive in Undermountain to absorb bits of Halaster's shattered psyche, it's a moot point... although Ed gives us good reason to be optimistic in his characterization of Manshoon. I could almost go with Manhalashoonster over the original Halaster... but the amalgam might actually be too dangerous... |
| Alisttair |
Posted - 08 Oct 2008 : 15:29:09
I miss Halaster  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Oct 2008 : 14:21:03
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
In a nutshell: Halaster is better alive than dead.
I think so too.
Indeed... Especially since it was such a pointless death.
I never finished reading that adventure, but even a few pages into it, I noticed an issue. After laying out the type of spells that wouldn't work in Undermountain, they had an NPC in the adventure using one of those spells to maintain communications with someone in Undermountain. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Oct 2008 : 14:17:14
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
quote:
Originally posted by Kamuraki
I find clones tend to mess up storylines anyway. It's cliché these days. It's just a way for writers to bring back a character they killed off and then found out once that character was gone, people really weren't interested in their story anymore. So the writer says, "Oooh look, we have a spare!" and then shoves him out on the stage to dance and plot world domination for your amusement once again.
That's part of why I'm not killing Halaster off at all. The whole Manshoon Wars side plot was interesting at first, and got old rather quickly. What would have made it interesting is if the reigning Magister had been caught in the crossfire between the clones, and one of them becoming the new Magister.
I'm a little curious as to why you feel this way... The Manshoon Wars were only presented in one supplement; by the next supplement, they were over and had pretty much been brushed aside. I'm not understanding out how it could have gotten old quickly when it was killed without ever being followed up on. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 08 Oct 2008 : 14:07:01
quote:
Originally posted by Jakk
In a nutshell: Halaster is better alive than dead.
I think so too. |
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