| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| BlackMoria |
Posted - 14 Sep 2007 : 16:03:08
Well, the Grand History of the Realms is out.
**Spoilers** Highlight to show.
In 1384 DR, Tyr kills Helm in a romantic misunderstanding over the heart of Tymora. Though nothing can be proved, the gods believe that Cyric is somehow involved in Helm's death.
In 1385 DR, With help from Shar, Cyric murders Mystra in Dweomerheart, destroying the plane and Savras, as well as sending Azuth and Velsharoon into the Astral plane.
Magic bursts from the bonds of the Weave. Thousands of mages are driven insane or destroyed, and the very substance of the world becomes mutable beneath the veils of azure fire that dance across the sky.
Cyric is imprisoned on his home plane for 1000 years by Tyr, Lathander, and Sune for his crimes. This event is what is known as the Spellplague.
Apparently many planes are "shifted" or destroyed. The book states that only the greater gods can protect their respective planes from the destruction. This implies that some of the lesser [and intermediate] gods might not make it.
The last sentence of the book says that the Weave is destroyed and the "old world" ends and a new one begins. What that means is anybody's guess.
Further,
Although this has already been revealed in the novels, most of the Drow gods have been axed. All that's left is Lolth, Eilistraee, and Ghaunadaur. Later Ghaunadaur is attacked by Lolth and moves to the Deep Caverns.
And in 1383 a bunch of dwarven deities bite it. Gorm, Heala, Laduguer, and Deep Duerra die in battle with each other. The book says that Hammergrim "disperses" into the Astral.
The sample chapter for the Orc King (by Salvatore) gleans some glimpse of the future of Realms.
The Spellplague devastates most of the Realms in some fashion. Hundreds of thousands of people die in the chaos of the Spellplague. The Empire of Nethril rises, the aboleths become a problem. This is a reference to the colliding of two worlds though if this is literal event or bardish prose, I don't know.
The Silver Marches apparently are no more though Silverymoon survives. To survive, a very loose alliance with Obould Many-arrows arises.
Time of Troubles 2.0. Your thoughts?
Personally, I think they took my beloved Realms and drove it off into a ditch so it remains to be seen when the new campaign setting comes out, just how bad the car wreck is. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 17:27:37
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
You can't outgrow a cage. Especially since with her later edicts (post Karsus) the cage kept shrinking. Her goal was to spread "toy" magic. And it further complicated the job of game designers, because the outsides (demons/devils/etc) had to be gimped in order for toy mages to be on-par spell casters.
Well, I guess here is where we'll just have to agree to disagree. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 16:54:31
*sigh* Those events happened in one novel, and in one novel only -- they never appeared anywhere else, and there was never an in-game effect from it. It was a plot device.
I'm getting to where I wish that book had never been written, because I keep seeing people refer to it as indicative of why Mystra was a problem.  |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 16:40:29
quote:
Originally posted by Neil
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I disliked the last incarnation of Mystra very much. Myself I hope she returns in a form much more like Earlier incarnations and neutral.
I wouldn't go so far as to say I disliked her, but it seemed difficult to square a neutral good goddess of magic with the fact that magic is frequently a tool of evil, especially in places like Thay.
What I came up with is that Mystra's job isn't so much worrying about the use of magic, or knowledge of magic, but simply to maintain magic and the Weave. Canonically, she can block her enemies from using magic, but that must be a great strain and dereliction of her duty.
I disliked "Midnight" when she was running around like an overwrought teen blocking magic from other dieties and controlling how it was used, etc.
To be fair I did not like it when Kelemvor wasn't doing "his job" judging souls correctly. |
| keijemon |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 15:36:42
quote:
Originally posted by Ayunken-vanzan
Confess: You are a follower of Shar, aren't you? 
Actually, no. After reading Ed's Elminster books that featured her, and pretty much every book that featured Loviatar... I can't tell them apart as characters. If I was told to observe a person and based on his daily actions of devotion (that didn't mention goddess explicitly) tell you if he worships Shar or Loviatar, I couldn't do it. Well, aside from the Lady of Pain book, where Loviatar and her worshippers were portrayed as Bene Gesserit, including entire quotes from Dune inserted in.
Shar just seem like a cheap version of Vecna... in fact they should've just brought him in and killed her off, now that I think about it.
If anything I am a psi-shipper myself. I like the FR's view of psi powers coming from my own personal weave to do with as I please.
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Mystra's goal was to spread magic. No offense, but I think you've misunderstood the character.
You can't outgrow a cage. Especially since with her later edicts (post Karsus) the cage kept shrinking. Her goal was to spread "toy" magic. And it further complicated the job of game designers, because the outsides (demons/devils/etc) had to be gimped in order for toy mages to be on-par spell casters. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 14:50:27
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
If she never existed, the world would've developed with full access to magic and everything would've found its own equilibrium from the get go.
Mystra's goal was to spread magic. No offense, but I think you've misunderstood the character. |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 12:04:41
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
Snipp
Confess: You are a follower of Shar, aren't you? |
| Neil |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 02:14:32
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
I disliked the last incarnation of Mystra very much. Myself I hope she returns in a form much more like Earlier incarnations and neutral.
I wouldn't go so far as to say I disliked her, but it seemed difficult to square a neutral good goddess of magic with the fact that magic is frequently a tool of evil, especially in places like Thay.
What I came up with is that Mystra's job isn't so much worrying about the use of magic, or knowledge of magic, but simply to maintain magic and the Weave. Canonically, she can block her enemies from using magic, but that must be a great strain and dereliction of her duty. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 01:28:09
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
Well, now that FR Campaign Guide is out, we know that Asmodeus ended the Blood War after getting his godhood "back" (since he, retroactively, had it before and lost) by om-nom-noming Azuth.
Stopping the blood war isn't what I would've liked, but I can forgive them for a lot after they've fixed the single greatest gripe I had with the setting (fluff wise). They didn't just kill an incarnation of Mystra (like during ToT and Karsus), but they've eliminated her entire existence.
While I didn't particularly dislike her as a character (as presented by her appearances in the novels), I hated what she represented. Oppressive control, selfishness and self-service. She only existed to control the weave, and the weave only needed controlling because she came to exist as a conscious part of it. While presenting a "good and benevolent" facade, she in fact was by far the most despotic deity in FR. While constantly going on about spreading magical knowledge, she held tight control on what kind and how much, setting strict limits, essentially having everyone spin wheels in one place. She was FR's One True Cage. If she were to release her control, chaos would ensue (as it now did) as people wouldn't be able to handle the power, since they grew up without it. If she never existed, the world would've developed with full access to magic and everything would've found its own equilibrium from the get go. I never thought they would get rid of her, since that would create aforementioned chaos which won't be ease to quell, but they did. For the sheer show of reason and guts that decision represent I am willing to give the team behind FR every single benefit of a doubt.
Here is hoping they won't chicken out and resurrect her or bring someone else to take up her mantle.
Wow... That is an interpretation of Mystra I have never seen before. |
| The Red Walker |
Posted - 27 Aug 2008 : 00:34:13
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
Well, now that FR Campaign Guide is out, we know that Asmodeus ended the Blood War after getting his godhood "back" (since he, retroactively, had it before and lost) by om-nom-noming Azuth.
Stopping the blood war isn't what I would've liked, but I can forgive them for a lot after they've fixed the single greatest gripe I had with the setting (fluff wise). They didn't just kill an incarnation of Mystra (like during ToT and Karsus), but they've eliminated her entire existence.
While I didn't particularly dislike her as a character (as presented by her appearances in the novels), I hated what she represented. Oppressive control, selfishness and self-service. She only existed to control the weave, and the weave only needed controlling because she came to exist as a conscious part of it. While presenting a "good and benevolent" facade, she in fact was by far the most despotic deity in FR. While constantly going on about spreading magical knowledge, she held tight control on what kind and how much, setting strict limits, essentially having everyone spin wheels in one place. She was FR's One True Cage. If she were to release her control, chaos would ensue (as it now did) as people wouldn't be able to handle the power, since they grew up without it. If she never existed, the world would've developed with full access to magic and everything would've found its own equilibrium from the get go. I never thought they would get rid of her, since that would create aforementioned chaos which won't be ease to quell, but they did. For the sheer show of reason and guts that decision represent I am willing to give the team behind FR every single benefit of a doubt.
Here is hoping they won't chicken out and resurrect her or bring someone else to take up her mantle.
I disliked the last incarnation of Mystra very much. Myself I hope she returns in a form much more like Earlier incarnations and neutral. |
| keijemon |
Posted - 26 Aug 2008 : 20:03:24
Well, now that FR Campaign Guide is out, we know that Asmodeus ended the Blood War after getting his godhood "back" (since he, retroactively, had it before and lost) by om-nom-noming Azuth.
Stopping the blood war isn't what I would've liked, but I can forgive them for a lot after they've fixed the single greatest gripe I had with the setting (fluff wise). They didn't just kill an incarnation of Mystra (like during ToT and Karsus), but they've eliminated her entire existence.
While I didn't particularly dislike her as a character (as presented by her appearances in the novels), I hated what she represented. Oppressive control, selfishness and self-service. She only existed to control the weave, and the weave only needed controlling because she came to exist as a conscious part of it. While presenting a "good and benevolent" facade, she in fact was by far the most despotic deity in FR. While constantly going on about spreading magical knowledge, she held tight control on what kind and how much, setting strict limits, essentially having everyone spin wheels in one place. She was FR's One True Cage. If she were to release her control, chaos would ensue (as it now did) as people wouldn't be able to handle the power, since they grew up without it. If she never existed, the world would've developed with full access to magic and everything would've found its own equilibrium from the get go. I never thought they would get rid of her, since that would create aforementioned chaos which won't be ease to quell, but they did. For the sheer show of reason and guts that decision represent I am willing to give the team behind FR every single benefit of a doubt.
Here is hoping they won't chicken out and resurrect her or bring someone else to take up her mantle. |
| Sian |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 05:51:34
NDA-Dancing for the win :) |
| Mkhaiwati |
Posted - 11 Oct 2007 : 03:29:00
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Sian
well ... IMO lying is to harsh a word to use ... keep from leaking info's that shouldn't be leaked at the preticular time on the other hand
Well many of us are used to NDA here, when WotC wasked about a 4th it appears they did not use that. Instead saying things like.
"There are no plans for a 4th Edition at this time."
I would have to parse actual quotes to see if statements were out right lies. As far as it goes some quotes might might be from some people that did not know of the 2 year in place plan.
There was also the time (I think it was at the Winter or D&D experience this last year) that when asked about 4e, they commented:
(I am paraphrasing here) "We got a big chuckle about that, and we wondered when someone would ask us about 4e". It wasn't a denial, though it was written as to sound like one, and looking back I guess I can understand why they were laughing. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 10 Oct 2007 : 19:20:59
quote:
Originally posted by Sian
well ... IMO lying is to harsh a word to use ... keep from leaking info's that shouldn't be leaked at the preticular time on the other hand
Well many of us are used to NDA here, when WotC wasked about a 4th it appears they did not use that. Instead saying things like.
"There are no plans for a 4th Edition at this time."
I would have to parse actual quotes to see if statements were out right lies. As far as it goes some quotes might might be from some people that did not know of the 2 year in place plan. |
| Sian |
Posted - 10 Oct 2007 : 18:44:57
well ... IMO lying is to harsh a word to use ... keep from leaking info's that shouldn't be leaked at the preticular time on the other hand |
| Kes_Alanadel |
Posted - 10 Oct 2007 : 15:26:15
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Now they take that away and turn the FR into something, that exists countless times as well: A campaign without background, just the setting and maybe a few supplements.
I had hoped FR fans would be able to hold off on snap judgments.
I trust the developers.
Well for me, and granted all that I have read about 4e comes from the scrolls on this site, my trust is something they have yet to earn. These are, after all, the same people who for the last two years have been lying to their fan base. That in and of itself makes me trusting anything they say very, very hard. 
~Kes |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 20:43:26
quote:
Now they take that away and turn the FR into something, that exists countless times as well: A campaign without background, just the setting and maybe a few supplements.
I had hoped FR fans would be able to hold off on snap judgments.
I trust the developers.
|
| Iliphar1 |
Posted - 09 Oct 2007 : 20:28:52
I can't believe it,
The main thing that excels the Forgotten Realms from so many countless different settings is the long story and the fact, that it has become an alive world.
Now they take that away and turn the FR into something, that exists countless times as well: A campaign without background, just the setting and maybe a few supplements. |
| Ayunken-vanzan |
Posted - 01 Oct 2007 : 18:58:31
The concept of this new cosmology sounds actually very interesting, and I like it - but not as FR-Cosmology, but as cosmology for a new setting. There are so many changes, it is nearly impossible to explain how the Great Tree became something like that (and the description sounds as if the world was alway like that - not only since very recently). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 01 Oct 2007 : 00:27:51
The Fugue plane should become the 'Border Shadow' - a concept Gray and I tossed around awhile back. Similar to the border ethereal, it would be where things like 'spirits' hangout, with some of them getting 'stuck' and being unable to move on.
In fact, I'm not sure where they're fitting the Ethereal into all of this, so that plane itself can become the 'Shadow Border' - something very similar to the Mists of Ravenloft or "The Ways" of WoT. A convenient way to get to the other planes, but make one wrong turn and BAM!
You're outta here.
I think the Fugue Plane could fit well into that - a sort of in-between state of life (Prime Material) and death (the outer planes). |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 23:49:50
Aye, the Fugue plain will need to be apparently absorbed by what I deem to be the new Shadow Plane. The Shadowfell kinda makes more sense to me though...it is a good idea: spirits that leave the world would perhaps go to such a place before moving into the plane of their god. I'm just curious how they will play it all out.
One of the reasons I thought they were saying "You should perhaps simply start all new characters..." is that there are going to be LOTS of things contrary to what has been before, and characters may then exist if we use them that have been to places that "never were" to start with. Oh well...time will tell.
I'm really partial to some of what is to come. The FR before didn't have a unique cosmos of its own...but now it will be something better than the Tree...although they will need to explain away creatures like the serpent that was gnawing on that Tree (can't remember big ol' blackies name off the top of my head).
If they aren't careful, one of the traps they may fall in is contradicting canon...which is what I thought was one of the reasons they were pushing the timeline so far ahead: to give themselves creative room. |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 23:45:30
I'll say this for the new cosmology... the THIRD cosmology that has been used.
  
No, I actually didn't mind the tree (matter of fact, it fit with the wheel, depending on the planar lore used <planescape allowed for it).
So, again, I'm not the target audience.
/d |
| Skeptic |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 22:44:25
Getting rid of the "Tree cosmology" is a good idea IHMO. It wasn't fun and disliked by fans.
I'm waiting to see how they will deal with Shadowfell + Fugue plain.
|
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 20:21:51
Ironically, the best "in game" explanations for any cosmology changes they had was Die, Vecna, Die, but for some reason, after creating that excuse for planar changes, they turned around and swore that the planes never changed, that they had always been the way they are (both in the Core setting and in FR). Why did they even create that explanation then?
At any rate, that might almost serve as an explanation, if they choose to use it. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 19:56:53
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'm really glad they are taking the time to simplify this stuff.
Quite True.
The Bloodwar does pose a bit of problem - I wonder how they will handle that?
If they give us an IG explanation for the changes (which I doubt), maybe they will blame the 'shattering of the Wheel' on the Bloodwar itself? Obviously the shake-up in FR has had extra-dimensional reprecussions (or the other way around), so perhaps this particular re-write will be covered in core books, rather then setting-specific ones. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 19:30:01
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I have a feeling that Blood War is probably scragged. I'm sure the planes have actually always been this way . . .
They seriously can't be so incompetent that they take the blood war away, right? For me the War is the centerpiece of the lower planes. Taking it away diminishes all the fiends, not just the Tana'ri and the Baatezu.
I could be wrong, I've not heard anything that specifically stated this, but there hasn't been any mention of the Blood War either, and with the Abyss being an "elemental" plane and the Nine Hells being an "astral domain," its not like its a war in the Lower Planes anymore, since that doesn't really apply.
|
| khorne |
Posted - 30 Sep 2007 : 19:19:18
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I have a feeling that Blood War is probably scragged. I'm sure the planes have actually always been this way . . .
They seriously can't be so incompetent that they take the blood war away, right? For me the War is the centerpiece of the lower planes. Taking it away diminishes all the fiends, not just the Tana'ri and the Baatezu. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 18:25:04
I have a feeling that Blood War is probably scragged. I'm sure the planes have actually always been this way . . .
Somehow this time we got an explanation for why the FR planes changed, but we didn't get an explanation for why the planes in general changed, so somehow FR has a different history for the same plane now because they did give us an explanation . . .
So now that there is a one multiverse we have at least two origins for it, but before when multiple cosmologies, they had the same origin for many planes . . .
I'm really glad they are taking the time to simplify this stuff. |
| Dalor Darden |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 18:14:02
quote:
Originally posted by BlackMoria
Well, Rich Baker has confirmed that the FR cosmology will be the new default 4e cosmology.
Here is a link for your edification about the 4e cosmology to see where we are heading.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070926a
Now it is clear why the Spellplague destroyed some planes and swept away others. The entire multi-verse got re-ordered and changed to fix the new cosmology.
Well, I thought that perhaps the Forgotten Realms would become the default setting...but I had no idea the death of Mystra would re-organize the cosmology of EVERY world! That's hard to swallow for me...even places like Greyhawk, Eberron, etc...?
I'm sorry...I'll just ignore the why and go on with what is. I don't think Boccob or Istus of Greyhawk would like the idea that a goddess from FR caused their existence to be so altered...and I don't think that was WotC intention in truth. It is just going to have to be one of those "This is how it has always been in Greyhawk!" things or just ignore the new way.
Making the Abyss so seemingly small in the Elemental Chaos...and then having the Nine Hells in the Astral...
That makes the Abyss an "inner" plane now and closer to the worlds. I wonder how some of the Planar Magic available to casters will work now? According to this description, you only need to be able to access the Elemental area to gain access to the Abyss.
And how will this turn out in the formerly important Blood War? Where will the battle-field be for the armies of the Abyss and Nine Hells if they are essentially cut off from each other since the Abyss doesn't seem to "float in the Astral Sea" any longer like the Nine Hells, Acheron and Pandemonium.
The new incarnation of the book that explains the outer "planes" may have to use entirely new terminology since it doesn't seem like Planes is at all accurate...
Guess we will have to wait and see! |
| BlackMoria |
Posted - 29 Sep 2007 : 17:35:47
Well, Rich Baker has confirmed that the FR cosmology will be the new default 4e cosmology.
Here is a link for your edification about the 4e cosmology to see where we are heading.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070926a
Now it is clear why the Spellplague destroyed some planes and swept away others. The entire multi-verse got re-ordered and changed to fix the new cosmology. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Sep 2007 : 16:18:47
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Okay, we are getting some Fäerie coverage.
Now I'm thinking back to my earlier thoughts, about the return of the Fey/Le'Shay.
What's kind of weird though is how they specifically differentiated the elf mage who embraced being an eladrin in the recent novels focusing on the fey'ri and Comanthyr. Of course, that could also be a tip off that if the two worlds (faerie and Toril <faerun>) re-merge that the gold elves will re-embrace their previous heritage... maybe? |
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