| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nighttfall |
Posted - 26 Apr 2007 : 12:34:03
Not like anyone else will post it here. *I'm kidding Eric!* But hey my theory for the day is this:
As the draco-rage goes on and on, Orcus is like huh, maybe I should get in on this. So while the Cult tries to get more on their side, Orcus is like in the Underdark saying "Hey look I'm a reasonable fella. You help me in the Abyss, and we'll work on this dragon rage thing" So while a few wyrms hide out there, Orcus grafts a few undead traits on them. This prevents them from going crazy but also gives him a measure of control.
Scroll along 5 years from now, Orcus builds up his power base and sends the wyrms into the Underdark. He wants to hurt Lolth as best he can while ensuring his reign. Thus he has his "engines" of destruction rolling merrily along while his quaggoth followers raise the rest. Short story, Orcus regains control of the Galena mountains and the Underdark beneath it.
That's my plot theory for the day. Enjoy. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Brace Cormaeril |
Posted - 15 Jul 2010 : 19:42:21
Well, whether you hate Orcus or love him, this new mini will either terrorize your players, or allow you to send him packin' back to the Abyss once again!
http://hordelings.com/cache/6ca52ae961903f768173c01c38bd1c90_550x-1x0.png
Great upgrade to the mini I used for an adventure dealing with Orcus(aspect)a few years ago...
http://www.reapermini.com/pages/figure_finder_image.php?sku=02646_G.jpg&image=3
Reaper does make a nice Grazz't mini, tho... |
| Darkmeer |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 14:46:51
Okay, so this pushes up Orcus' revival, although I still think Kiransalee would have been "impersonating" him. I'm actually okay with this, as it allows for some really fun expansion in my PS timeline. so, by this theory, Orcus is back about 1340. Still early, and it makes logical sense that Kiransalee would have expanded her ranks with that "hidden" extra power. This also makes sense that she would want to hunt down his followers after he came back. I'm quite okay with that.
Thank you very much Zanan.
/d |
| Zanan |
Posted - 12 Aug 2007 : 10:28:09
May I interfere?
We actually have a quite detailed timescale for all the action regarding what has happened in Vaasa et al, and thus when the events with Lord Dragonsbane and Company happened. Within Realmspace.
For ... (though Brian has not yet included it in the Grand History or the History of the Underdark) as described in Demihuman Deities:
- V'elddrinnsshar, the drow city beneath the West Galena mountains, fell in the Year of Many Bones (1278 DR) to an Ascomoid Plague
- It was rediscovered by the drow in the Year of the Wandering Maiden (1337 DR), when it was explored by "Reaper of Souls" Larynda Telenna and a small band of acolytes.
- When the "Acropolis of Thanatos" was completed a decade later, Larynda had expanded the ranks of Kiaransalee's faithful a thousandfold and ...
Since the temple's completion, the priests of Kiaransalee have relentlessly combated the Cult of the Goat's Head, active in the lands of Vaasa above. In the decade since the defeat of the Witch-King and the destruction of Castle Perilous, Kiaransalee's priests have nearly exterminated the remaining clergy of Orcus in the Bloodstone Lands-many of whom took refuge in the Black Holes of Sunderland and thus were readily accessible to attacks from below-and destroyed most of the goblinkin tribes who venerated the Prince of the Undead while the Witch-King reigned in the Lands of Light. Although they do not realize it, King Gareth Dragonsbane and the people of Damara owe a great deal of their success against the forces of the Witch-King to their subterranean neighbors.
We do know when the Dragonsbane incursion into Orcus' realm happened, the day he slew the witch-king and all. Hence, it all happened within the last 40 odd years. The main influx and growth in power, regarding Kiaransalee, came during the Silence. Whether she will keep it, we'll know in 20odd days, i.e. after reading Storm of the Dead.
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| Darkmeer |
Posted - 11 Aug 2007 : 02:15:13
So, the part that has been missed by my Knightly friend is the most important:
Kiransalee needed more worshippers to gain power, especially outside of Realmspace. So, thousands of years ago (probably 2-3 thousand in all "realities") she slayed Orcus.
Problem: Abyssal power vacuum, and Lolth would notice (being another abyssal lord at the time). So, she set up an avatar of herself to act and think like Orcus. So, Orcus was in place, and was becoming "fat" due to "laziness." This sets the stage for a planar being to come in and "slay Orcus" at a later date (see Dead Gods & The Great Modron March for more info, and for those that know, yes it's redundant).
Now, Kiransalee decides that Orcus' cult needs to be expanded. This is an odd thought, especially since Orcus really didn't have any expansionist plans outside of the Abyss prior to this (I could be wrong here), but 3000 years allowed Kiransalee the chance to gain much influence, and post Time of Troubles increase her power almost openly. About 4-5 years after that time, the events of the Great Modron March & Dead Gods occur (we're in 1363 here). So Orcus comes back, angry. He has seen the damage to his evil reputation, and begins hunting down the incorrect cults in his name. He starts on Oerth, then moves to the Realms. He actually appears back in the Realms in approximately 1368-1370, post Witch-King.
So, Kiransalee, having more power and vying for undead followers, makes a move towards being more than "a drow goddess," which annoys Lolth, and is further accented by the silence of Lolth in 1373 (Correct year?). Kiransalee gets a lot of followers during that time period, and rightfully remains at her level of power.
This was merely my theory, not fact (until a designer says so). But it does help to explain how Kiransalee was able to make moves that, honestly, I don't feel she could have without the extra power granted by being a more powerful deity. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 10 Aug 2007 : 11:55:34
quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by Nighttfall
Kiaransalyn,
I apologize.
How about the fact that Lolth was a Demon Princess and Orcus isn't exactly fond of over achievers. That plus Kiaransalee is currently under Lolth's "protection" makes Orcus consider the entire pantheon his enemy.
Apology accepted. I like your explanation. I think the actions you ascribe to Kiaransalee's 'stupidity' could be better ascribed to he seeing a much greater goal. Similarly, for all we know Orcus may have planned the whole Tenebrous episode. Great religions need great myths after all.
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| sleyvas |
Posted - 09 Aug 2007 : 19:34:05
Darkmeer's idea is interesting, but there's enough realms based lore that says that the interaction between Orcus and Kia was "not too many years ago" and "in recent memory". I've actually liked the idea that Gareth and Kiaransalee are somehow entertwined (and Gareth may not even know it).... Kiaransalee actually used Gareth and company to capture Orcus' wand and thereby weaken him to the point that she was able to finish him off. She then hid the wand away as mentioned in Demi-human deities. Now, some will point out that Bahamut destroyed the wand in order to make the gem-tree, but you don't really know WHAT happened to the wand or orcus... just that one second Bahamut had it and some part of Tiamat.. next there was a gem. Whether there were some shady dealings going on between Kiaransalee and Bahamut (after all, Bahamut got some variation of Tiamat slain.. whether it was an avatar, aspect, etc...) in order to get Gareth and company to steal the wand and destroy some part of Tiamat... well, that's a good possibility, no? Maybe even Kiaransalee had Bahamut hide the wand within the gem-tree somehow, for after all it was meant to keep out demons. What exactly was going on between these two deities and Gareth's company would make an interesting story.
This next part is purely me musing, but I find it interesting that within the last generation there have been two "undead gods" that have come about. They tried to make Tenebrous out like he was all special, but in reality, Velsharoon was a mortal who became a lich deity. In effect, not only did Tenebrous become an undead god, but so did Velsharoon. I have often said that Velsharoon enacted his ritual using one of (or the original) the phylacteries of the deity Mellifleur, for whom Velsharoon has taken on the identity of as an alias. However, there is also the additional option that perhaps he found the wand of Orcus as well and tried to use it in his ritual as well... but something went wrong and that's how Orcus was "reborn" as the undead Tenebrous.
In the end, it doesn't affect your campaign much (unless you were doing the campaign I ran, which actually focused around Kia, Orcus, and Vel), but it could help clear up some questions. |
| Nighttfall |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 19:28:15
Sage,
I apologize for my rudeness. It was late and I was...emotional.
Kiaransalyn,
I apologize.
How about the fact that Lolth was a Demon Princess and Orcus isn't exactly fond of over achievers. That plus Kiaransalee is currently under Lolth's "protection" makes Orcus consider the entire pantheon his enemy. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 13:00:12
Just a friendly Mod warning [the second for this particular scroll]... Let's try to keep things civil fellow scribes.
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| Wizbane |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 12:56:26
I don't like Darkmeer theory. It makes sense but it's a bit forced.
Even though I don't have a clear view of what is canon and what is not, my view is that Kiaransalee must have killed Orcus in recent times, and by the time of King Gareth & C. it was the real Orcus that was around.
References to Kiaransalee ruling over Thanatos for thousands of years are explained with the fact that in the past Orcus forced the drow deity out of his realm in the Abyss and she relocated in the Demonweb Pits in a realm of her own, named and forged like the abyssal Thanatos she liked so much. The rivalry between Orcus and Kiaransalee dates back to this episode.
Then there is the grudge between Kiaransalee and Lolth, that as mentioned is probably going to be developed quite a bit in the next Lady Penitent novel; but I fail to see the connection between Orcus and Lolth at the base of Nightfall's initial idea.
Wizbane |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 09:53:31
quote:
Originally posted by Nighttfall
Kiaranselee was too stupid prideful to realize it.
Hey! Don't call my goddess stupid!  You're entitled to your opinion but not entitled to make remarks that others find insulting.
Why not ascribe Orcus's successes to his own actions?
As regards Darkmeer's theory. I like that too, it makes a lot of sense. |
| Nighttfall |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 09:22:51
My theory:
Space time isn't the same in every universe.
When Orcus was killed in "Samespace" his death left a hole in things. Kiaranselee's rise just happened work for what was a period of time. Orcus granted his worshipers power because he was still tied as a conduit to the Abyss. Even though Kiaranselee had "killed" Orcus, part of Orcus was still around and Kiaranselee was too stupid prideful to realize it.
Orcus has and continues to be a power in the Realms and now I feel if he wants to showcase that power he'd better get off his royal butt and show that power now. :p
Aspect or not, Orcus is a force to be considered none too lightly. Which is why I am still convinced if the authors REALLY want to showcase the power of the Realms, let the Archfiends play freely in Faerun. :p |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 05:57:14
I really like Darkmeer's theory... It makes a lot of sense, and neatly explains away a few niggling issues. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 05:06:36
Darkmeer and I brainstormed a bit a while back about Kiaransalee and Orcus, and what exactly happened between them. In general, it was said that Kiaransalee killed Orcus and hid his wand, taking over his layer of Thanatos before Tenebrous managed to bring himself back to life through one of his followers.
In a few places, this seemed like a recent event, but a few other sources seem to imply that this situation actually happed a few thousand years ago. While my original though was that (as per the Demonweb Pits in the WOTSQ books) Thanatos had a relative time distortion when Orcus was killed, so that Kiaransalee was in charge for thousands of years, but outside of the realm, only a few years had passed.
Darkmeer came up with a bit more radical, but perhaps a lot more logical explanation. Kiaransalee obviously killed Orcus to expand her domain. She was trying to expand her control, most likely by incorporating human and other worshipers that followed Orcus.
If this is the case, its entirely possible that Kiaransalee did kill Orcus thousands of years ago, and she was posing as Orcus to the Witch King when he invaded Damara. The "Orcus" that Gareth and his band defeated could have easily been an aspect of Orcus (we know that Obox-ob still had aspects around after he was slain, as they are separate entities), and the wand he carried a duplicate.
Kiaransalee didn't want show her hand yet, so when the aspect and its false wand were destroyed, she backed off of the cult in Damara.
Thus, Orcus, himself, wasn't really the patron of the Cult of Orcus in Damara.
Now, as to supporting the expanding worshipers gambit . . . the Storm of the Dead preview actually mentions that Kiaransalee was jealous of Lolth expanding her worship by taking over Moander's identity (thus making her more palatable to humans and corrupt elven worshipers). The fact that Lolth "secretly" wants to expand to being worshiped by surface elves and humans was mentioned way back in Drow of the Underdark.
Given that Kiaransalee tried to do much the same thing, and was ultimately thwarted by Orcus' return, would definitely fit this scenario.
Its even possible that the brief period that Orcus was regarded as a deity proper might have been when Kiaransalee was providing spells for his cult.
At any rate, its certainly not canon, but I think there has been enough scattered bits in 3rd/3.5 to at least make it sound like a viable theory. |
| Nighttfall |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 04:03:35
Knight, I haven't gotten the last issue but I am familiar with the goings on in the Savage Tide.
That said, how can the Lady Penitent NOT involve Orcus? Without Orcus, Kiaranselee would still be peddling her magic to some other god. It's thanks to Orcus she's even a known factor. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 03:54:59
Nightfall, I think Orcus and his involvement is a bit outside of the scope of the Lady Penitent novels, which seem firmly focused on the Dark Seldarine, and seem to focus on gods that have been both allied to one another and opposed to one another for hundreds of thousands of years.
On the other hand, do you pick up Dungeon Magazine? You might be interested in the Savage Tide Adventure Path that is wrapping up, as Orcus does play a part in that storyline toward the end (and Orcus also plays a role in the Expedition to the Demonweb Pits adventure, if you want to cross reference drow and Orcus). |
| Nighttfall |
Posted - 08 Aug 2007 : 02:35:21
Now with what's read with the latest FR novels, I keep praying Orcus is smart enough to want to take a hand in this.
Come on Undying Prince, show those goodie two shoe drow what TRUE chaotic evil is like! ;) |
| Nighttfall |
Posted - 06 May 2007 : 21:07:04
Zanan,
He's not a deity in FR, but he can grant spells, via the Abyss as per Fiendish Codex AND Faiths and Pantheons.
Also he is a deity in Ghostwalk as well as in Necromancer Games too.
So while he's not YET a deity of undead, he's got enough followers to nearly capitulate him to that status well before someone like Sammaster or undead dragons.
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| Zanan |
Posted - 06 May 2007 : 21:02:16
You have noted though that Orcus is no deity, so going by canon you speak of ... let's see, Nerull or Myrkul? Kelemvor? Jergal? Velsharoon? |
| Nighttfall |
Posted - 06 May 2007 : 04:27:22
Kiar-personage,
Yeah well for me there's only one TRUE deity of the undead, and it's not yours! 
Even so, Orcus can be reasonable and certainly conniving enough to perhaps convince some dragons and indeed followers of the Cult to join with him. (Undead Dragons being ruled is fine so long as they can also help in his wars in the Abyss and ensure his rise to divinity.) To me, it's a winnable scenario, especially in light of Damara losing a good portion of its population AND perhaps some Underdark followers as well thanks to Lolth's little "side show." |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 04 May 2007 : 20:29:12
It's a nice idea but, if I may make so bold, I can see a flaw in your plot.
quote:
Originally posted by Nighttfall
Orcus is ... saying "Hey look I'm a reasonable fella. You help me in the Abyss, and we'll work on this dragon rage thing"
How many dragons - or other intelligent races - believe that Orcus is a reasonable fellow? 
Most people on seeing a fat demon do not think they can strike a mutually advantageous bargain. That said, Orcus might just provide the answers to the questions that some might have but his opening line is more likely to be "There is a solution but there is also a price."
As regards the question of undead deities my worship goes to the pretty drow. |
| Nighttfall |
Posted - 26 Apr 2007 : 16:36:34
Sage,
Thanks. I'd hate for a thread to be closed on my first day.
In ANY case, it's just an idea. It's not factual. It's merely just an idle thought.
Regarding Demonweb Pits, it's not related to FR. If it was, there would have been more gods involved.
Just because foes are 'accessible' doesn't mean he's not interesting in trying to scale up towards the gods.
dwarf,
Effectiveness is measured less by its outcome than by the fact Orcus has plans that keep the other guys off balance. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 Apr 2007 : 16:19:13
I'm placing a warning here now, before this gets out of hand... I'd rather not see this scroll degenerate into a "Did Orcus actually return" debate. We've had more than enough of those in the past, and frankly, they've become tiresome.
If you're interested in participating in this discussion, please try to keep your reply focused specifically on Nightfall's original post. Otherwise, I'll be forced to seal this scroll.
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| Dargoth |
Posted - 26 Apr 2007 : 15:49:30
quote:
Originally posted by dwarvenranger
Interesting thought, guess it's time for King Gareth to come out of retirement. And given that Lolth ssems quite a bit more powerful now, I don't know how effective he can be, but chaos is as chaos does.
Gareth doesnt need to come out of retirement Orcus still wont of recovered from Gareth destroying the Wand of Orcus the first time
The realms already has enough Undead related deities in the realms without adding a silly demon prince whose already had his favourite toy destroyed by Garath Dragonsbane and co and been killed by the drow goddess of undeath
There is absolutely no need to bring Orcus back |
| Zanan |
Posted - 26 Apr 2007 : 15:21:11
What has Orcus to do with Lolth? If he has dragons et al at hand, he will send them against weaker and more accessible foes. But all the attention he causes with such measures ... I really doubt that he wants that, on the Planes nor on Toril.
BTW, Expedition to the Demonweb Pits has a few bits and pieces about this Demon Lord and some others as well. Sadly/interestingly enough, neither Kiaransalee nor any other core drow deity make an appearance (not that it is required). |
| dwarvenranger |
Posted - 26 Apr 2007 : 14:51:16
Interesting thought, guess it's time for King Gareth to come out of retirement. And given that Lolth ssems quite a bit more powerful now, I don't know how effective he can be, but chaos is as chaos does. |
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