| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Yasraena |
Posted - 05 May 2003 : 04:50:04
Guys - Do you only play males? Girls - Do you only play females? Can you/do you go either way?
(And no, I don't mean THAT way!  )
I am curious about this because so far, I seem to be the only male who has a female character on the site, and I have yet to see a female play a male on here as well.
I can play either one actually, but I tend to play females. Mainly because no one in my group (all guys) but me will play one. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Jun 2003 : 14:03:17
I think we are heading way off into Off-Topic country here fellow sages  .
Perhaps we should try to bring the thread back to where the conversation really started. After all, we don't want to make Alaundo cross with all of us, with all this non-FR related discussion do we? .
May all your learning be free and unfettered
|
| eilinel |
Posted - 11 Jun 2003 : 12:11:08
California is as big as France actually, so...
and no, its not that far, belive me. just Davis between the both i think. Yasraena should know.
quote:
In the US, men can't be affectionate to each other in public the way women can, any more than men can dress as women. The US is a lot more uptight than Europe when it comes to gender roles. Heck, the US is just plain more uptight. All that residual Puritanism.
i know... they are the most puritan people i have ever seen... And after that, they go to Las Vegas... How the hell could i understand that? too far from my way of mind
And no number 13 too,
just kidding, nevermind
quote:
In American English, a very short skirt is a "mini-skirt". I have heard the word "mini-dress" used to describe a very short dress, but not very often.
yes, i remember now, a skirt and mini-skirt for a short one. I don't wear things that short but skirts, yes.
quote:
Hahaha!I see that you've actually visited this glorified farming town, eilinel. But yeah, that's exactly why I moved here. Beleive me, it's not the place I would choose to live in, but for the moment, it has to be. I'd prefer to live back in the Reno/Lake Tahoe area again, but the job market for my field (I.T./I.S.) is just swamped with applicants right now, and there aren't a lot of those type of jobs in that area. Beleive me, I have been looking for ways to get out of this city, but nothing yet, so I must 'go with the flow' for now.
poor Yasraena, i have been there for few days and i tried to go out the fastest i could... 
But food and drink are relatively cheap there, compared with rest of California, though.
I was in the Sonoma County for few months and once a month i went in Sacramento to buy meat and everything, so expensive in Sonoma, like in Napa Valley.
|
| branmakmuffin |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 20:49:35
They're "close" in California terms. Heck, people live in Sacramento and work in San Francisco. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 20:34:27
quote:
Originally posted by eilinel
just to point something, guys, girls can wear man clothes and u don't worry a lot, but why men couldn't wear woman clothes?
ok, it may be not exactly the same thing, but u'd agree that ther is something strange here.
Yes, I pointed that out last page.
Oh, and why do you say that Sacremento and San Fransisco are 'close'? They're farther apart than any two cities in France (unless you count Paris and some city in Corsica, maybe . . . .) |
| branmakmuffin |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 20:24:54
Yasraena:
quote:
<snip> it's not the place I would choose to live in, but for the moment, it has to be. I'd prefer to live back in the Reno/Lake Tahoe area again <snip>
I was figuring Vacaville
I know you game only 2 or 3 times a year because of time constraints and not because of a lack of palyers, but what's the RPG community like there? I'm not planning on moving there  , , and double-, I'm just curious. |
| Yasraena |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 19:58:45
quote:
Originally posted by eilinel
completely out of topic but Yasraena, why do u live in Sacramento? its the stillest city i have ever seen -after Milhawkee when there is no Gencon
When u have San Francisco so close... i hope its just for the job
Hahaha!I see that you've actually visited this glorified farming town, eilinel. But yeah, that's exactly why I moved here. Beleive me, it's not the place I would choose to live in, but for the moment, it has to be. I'd prefer to live back in the Reno/Lake Tahoe area again, but the job market for my field (I.T./I.S.) is just swamped with applicants right now, and there aren't a lot of those type of jobs in that area. Beleive me, I have been looking for ways to get out of this city, but nothing yet, so I must 'go with the flow' for now. |
| branmakmuffin |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 18:36:37
eilinel:
In the US, men can't be affectionate to each other in public the way women can, any more than men can dress as women. The US is a lot more uptight than Europe when it comes to gender roles. Heck, the US is just plain more uptight. All that residual Puritanism.
In American English, a very short skirt is a "mini-skirt". I have heard the word "mini-dress" used to describe a very short dress, but not very often.
I think your English is getting better. Now if only my French would, too. |
| eilinel |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 14:25:52
completely out of topic but Yasraena, why do u live in Sacramento? its the stillest city i have ever seen -after Milhawkee when there is no Gencon
When u have San Francisco so close... i hope its just for the job |
| eilinel |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 14:20:34
just to point something, guys, girls can wear man clothes and u don't worry a lot, but why men couldn't wear woman clothes?
ok, it may be not exactly the same thing, but u'd agree that ther is something strange here.
Yasraena said
quote:
As far as your deal goes, just what would it take for you to wear a dress?
mmh well, i used to wear dresses when i was a child, but not anymore. And don't think that i wear jeans instead. Pants, right but quite rarely jeans. And how do u call short dresses? i use to wear that but not often and only in summer.
if u pay me all the clothes i would, ye, maybe i would wear a dress for few days... |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 04:23:33
I have to agree with Yasraena on this one. Though I don't want to go so far as to speculate as to what they 'should' have been -- that's presuming on God. (It also assumes that God made a mistake. That, by definition, is impossible; whether you believe in God or not, the very nature of God is to be omnipotent and omnisient.) What does matter is how the person in question feels is what should have happened.
I agree, Mournblade, that such surgery is mere illusion, but sometimes illusion is necessary. A person's comfort is what matters. Sometimes that comfort should include others as well (for instance, I find such people very disconcerting to look at), but imagine how it feels to them. They'd feel trapped in the wrong body, with no way out. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 10 Jun 2003 : 01:08:56
Well there ARE other ways to adapt, but the fact is simply the operation is NOTHING but an illusion. The equiptment does not work right, it just kind of looks like it. SO they would NEVER be able to actually BE a female/male. That is my point, they can only look like it, they will never BE it. They just need thereapy, not a useless rerouting of the pipes.
But I fully respect and understand your viewpoint.
|
| Yasraena |
Posted - 09 Jun 2003 : 22:11:01
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Well I just got back from LARPING this weekend and I had contact with that fellow I was talking about. Remember when Bran said Men that ONLY play women are a bit odd? Well, I NOticed this GUY umm person I was talking to had REAL breasts. He had very male features, Very long hair with a slightly balding spot on top, and female anatomy on his torso. Needless to say he is one of those Females trapped in a male body. He beleives there was a mistake and he was put in the wrong body. I didn't have the heart to tell him he could NEVER get rid of the Y chromosome, but I was just mildly disturbed. Coming form a scientific standpoint I think it is ridiculous (sp?). Then when I start voicing this one of my friends JEN told me HOW DARE I SAY that, for I do not know whether or not he was meant to be a girl or a boy. I gave up the argument, some people just do NOT understand the power of genetics, XX or XY has the FINAL word.
I also hate the fact that medical dollars are used to perform surgeries like sex changes. I am not against gay or lesbians in any way, but I have to admit, I just cannot except the transsexual argument as relevant (I am not equating gay or lesbians with transexuals either). There are people that are born unable to walk, and they may feel cheated but there is nothing we can do about it. Why then is a doctor even WONDERING if an operation to change sex is even possible. I will stop now before I rant further and beat this into the ground.
Getting WAY off topic with this but I had to put my 2 cents in.....
I'd have to disagree on the grounds that regardless of the physical makeup of someone, the psychological makeup is really the one that counts. If you don't feel happy in who you are, or you just don't feel right about who you are, you have the unalienable right to correct it by whatever means neccessary. Just because you were born a genetic male or female doesn't mean that you should have been.
This guy you speak of truly is a woman trapped in a man's body. It doesn't matter to him that he has the genetic makeup of a man. In his mind, he feels like a woman, and having the physical traits of a man and having to live as one is like a living hell for him. There have been cases where people with this disorder (Gender Dysphoria I belive it's called) have killed themselves because of having to live their life as a man, when they feel that they're a woman, or vice versa. Imagine what it would be like Mournblade, to have the same mental outlook you have now (a man's), but have to live your life in a womans body. If you can do that, you might be able to see what it's like for transsexuals in general and for this guy in particular. I have nothing but sympathy for them.
Personally, I'm glad that there are doctors out there that perform such operations, for the sole reason that they make life worth living again for these people, and anything that can help people live a better/happier life is OK by me.
There. I'm done now too.
Boy, talk about tangents running wild! Sorry Alaundo!  |
| Yasraena |
Posted - 09 Jun 2003 : 21:38:39
Well, you got me there BW. I just don't see the similarities between the two.
Playing one while at a tabletop game is one thing, but dressing in drag to play one is something completely different. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 09 Jun 2003 : 21:22:08
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Yasraena there is a guy at the LARP I play that DOES play a female. he is just someone I wish would not COME to the larp. He runs around talking in this FAKE high pitch accent, and acting like a total idiot. I think he is gay as well which is inconsequential, but he ALWAYS tries to flirt with male PC's at the game. He only botherd me ONCE... I enfeebled his mind for a half hour and he has not bothered me since.
OK YES I am quoting myself here...
Well I just got back from LARPING this weekend and I had contact with that fellow I was talking about. Remember when Bran said Men that ONLY play women are a bit odd? Well, I NOticed this GUY umm person I was talking to had REAL breasts. He had very male features, Very long hair with a slightly balding spot on top, and female anatomy on his torso. Needless to say he is one of those Females trapped in a male body. He beleives there was a mistake and he was put in the wrong body. I didn't have the heart to tell him he could NEVER get rid of the Y chromosome, but I was just mildly disturbed. Coming form a scientific standpoint I think it is ridiculous (sp?). Then when I start voicing this one of my friends JEN told me HOW DARE I SAY that, for I do not know whether or not he was meant to be a girl or a boy. I gave up the argument, some people just do NOT understand the power of genetics, XX or XY has the FINAL word.
I also hate the fact that medical dollars are used to perform surgeries like sex changes. I am not against gay or lesbians in any way, but I have to admit, I just cannot except the transsexual argument as relevant (I am not equating gay or lesbians with transexuals either). There are people that are born unable to walk, and they may feel cheated but there is nothing we can do about it. Why then is a doctor even WONDERING if an operation to change sex is even possible. I will stop now before I rant further and beat this into the ground. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 09 Jun 2003 : 19:51:34
See, Yasraena? Your reaction at wearing a dress is the same as mine for role-playing a woman at a table-top game, and for exactly the same reason. I just have a lower threshold than you do.
By the by, glad to know you're a MASH fan!
Digger: "Aren't you the guy trying to get out of the army by pretending he's a woman?"
Klinger: [sarcastically] "No, I'm the woman trying to get into the army by pretending she's a man."
Digger: "Cute."
Or another favorite:
Burns: "Another week in command and I would've had you out of that dress!"
Klinger: "I'm not that easy!"
I love that show. Probably the best one ever to air! |
| Yasraena |
Posted - 09 Jun 2003 : 07:33:58
quote:
Originally posted by eilinel
And how does a female dress up?
i never wore any dress, if its what u meant and i will never even under the torture -well, we can make a deal...
What I meant was that I think to play a female in a live action scenario, I'd have to look the part as well as roleplay it to be able to pull it off. You know, wear feminine clothes, make-up, etc, and I'm the type of guy that just wouldn't feel 'right' in doing so. Not to mention that I'd make a horrendous looking woman. (just picture Cpl. Klinger from M*A*S*H and you'll get the idea) I can roleplay females fairly well when I'm sitting around a table or in front of a PC, but I'd probably be very self concious of the fact that I was a man in a dress. Some guys would be able to pull it off, but not me.
And I have to say, I really like to see women in dresses and the like. Not all the time and not neccessarily 'dressed up', but definitely something more feminine than jeans. I guess it's just a guy thing.
As far as your deal goes, just what would it take for you to wear a dress?
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Yasraena there is a guy at the LARP I play that DOES play a female. he is just someone I wish would not COME to the larp. He runs around talking in this FAKE high pitch accent, and acting like a total idiot. I think he is gay as well which is inconsequential, but he ALWAYS tries to flirt with male PC's at the game. He only botherd me ONCE... I enfeebled his mind for a half hour and he has not bothered me since.
Does he dress in drag too?
Obviously, this is an example of someone who can't roleplay a female at all. I think I'd have a hard time gamng with someone like that. You're right, the gay thing is totaly inconsequential, but an annoying and idiotic personality is not. |
| Brynweir |
Posted - 07 Jun 2003 : 18:15:23
I'm not sure which theater you are talking about, Bookwym , but there is some interesting info on the net about Japanese theater.
One site says "Staged at special theaters called nogakudo, both noh and kyogen feature only male actors."
It goes on to talk about the more popular Kabuki theater (which might be what you were thinking)
"Kabuki: The first performances of kabuki were staged by a female troupe at the beginning of the seventeenth century, but in 1629 the Tokugawa shogunate, worried about public morals, issued a proclamation prohibiting all women from performing. From then until the Meiji period Japan officially had no female actors at all. Since it became necessary for men to perform female parts in kabuki, there emerged a type of actor called onnagata (female impersonator)...."
*This information was found at http://www.jinjapan.org/today/culture/culture12.html *
I think that it all depends on the culture in which you were raised. I have been working with kids for over eleven years, and they always want to play "dress-up." Some parents will say "Isn't that cute?" and go on. Others will freak out and demand that the kid go change. I think these reactions have a lasting impact on what the kid thinks is okay.
In general, I think more dads are concerned about their sons' preferences than their daughters', and some of them actually believe this reflects directly on them as the male influence. At least around here, this accounts for a lot of what people think is okay for males and females to do. I think that's why it is easier for females to play males.
|
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 07 Jun 2003 : 10:48:54
Isn't it interesting how (western) society has been more accepting of women cross-dressing as men rather than the other way around? The only time that male cross-dressing was considered general practice (that I know of -- please tell me if you know of another, I'd be interested in that) is on the stage in previous centuries. And that, as I understand it, was considered more of a "protection" of women. For some reason, a woman actor was considered no better than a prostitute. Not sure how that got started, but I'm sure it was some typically dumb male who did it, and hardly a fault of a woman.
There used to be a reversal of that in Arabic societies, interestingly enough. If you were a man, and you wanted to be a singer or musician of any sort, you were basically screwed unless you disguised yourself as a woman.
Finally, I've heard of a famous Japanese theater (so famous I've forgotten its name  ) that has a tradition of never allowing a woman on the stage during its entire history. If you see what looks like a woman singing or anything there, it's actually a skilled young man. |
| branmakmuffin |
Posted - 06 Jun 2003 : 23:12:26
My straight (no pun intended) answer is: I think men who like to RP only women are a bit odd. The ones I have met have always been effeminate in RL. It doesn't bother me, I just think it's odd.
I have RP'd with too few women to have ever seen a woman RPing a man. |
| eilinel |
Posted - 06 Jun 2003 : 09:23:24
Yasraena said
quote:
Well, live action is a bit different, in that to play a female, I'd have to dress up as one, and I'm just not going to do that!
And how does a female dress up?
i never wore any dress, if its what u meant and i will never even under the torture -well, we can make a deal...
Mourblade said
quote:
Yasraena there is a guy at the LARP I play that DOES play a female. he is just someone I wish would not COME to the larp. He runs around talking in this FAKE high pitch accent, and acting like a total idiot. I think he is gay as well which is inconsequential, but he ALWAYS tries to flirt with male PC's at the game. He only botherd me ONCE... I enfeebled his mind for a half hour and he has not bothered me since.
well, thats an other problem and i find u here , and ure right, i would have done the same thing but with my own manner -crashing his... , too bad!! |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 06 Jun 2003 : 00:11:25
quote:
Originally posted by Yasraena
Well, live action is a bit different, in that to play a female, I'd have to dress up as one, and I'm just not going to do that!
(See Mournblade? Tangents flying everywhere on this topic! )
Yasraena there is a guy at the LARP I play that DOES play a female. he is just someone I wish would not COME to the larp. He runs around talking in this FAKE high pitch accent, and acting like a total idiot. I think he is gay as well which is inconsequential, but he ALWAYS tries to flirt with male PC's at the game. He only botherd me ONCE... I enfeebled his mind for a half hour and he has not bothered me since.
|
| branmakmuffin |
Posted - 05 Jun 2003 : 21:53:48
Originally posted by Yasraena:
quote:
(See Mournblade? Tangents flying everywhere on this topic! )
Some people have a lot of nerve straying off topic.
I once dated a woman I met through RPing. She is not the one against whom all others are measured, however. |
| Yasraena |
Posted - 05 Jun 2003 : 20:13:47
quote:
Originally posted by eilinel
well, i don't know. ur probably right, although
But as Mournblade said, it would be also difficult for me to play well my role in a live action -they always give me the hardest role, since they know me well.
u said its a question of maturity, i don't know, because some people can't do that by anyway u know, and it doesn't mean that they are not mature or what, try to play with an average italian, for instance, ull see what flirt means for him. Its in the culture too.
Well, live action is a bit different, in that to play a female, I'd have to dress up as one, and I'm just not going to do that!
You have a point about the culture thing, though. Culture is learned from a very young age, and therefore extremely hard to think that it might be wrong. Personally, I happen to think that particular aspect of Italian male culture that you refer to (macho, tough guy, chauvinistic, etc) is a total load of crap. They however have been taught this from birth, so they think it's ok to act that way, that that's how you have to act like to be a man.
In the States, however, the traditional roles of males/females have changed so drastically in the last 50 years that anyone who still thinks it's weird/wrong/etc to take on the other gender's roles is still living in the dark ages.
(See Mournblade? Tangents flying everywhere on this topic! ) |
| eilinel |
Posted - 05 Jun 2003 : 11:31:00
well, i don't know. ur probably right, although
But as Mournblade said, it would be also difficult for me to play well my role in a live action -they always give me the hardest role, since they know me well.
u said its a question of maturity, i don't know, because some people can't do that by anyway u know, and it doesn't mean that they are not mature or what, try to play with an average italian, for instance, ull see what flirt means for him. Its in the culture too.
|
| Yasraena |
Posted - 05 Jun 2003 : 05:28:23
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
HAH HAH! How did I get off on this tangent!
Hahaha! Don't feel bad Mournblade. This seems to happen to everybody on these boards eventually! |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 04 Jun 2003 : 23:29:21
Bookwyrm I agree with Yasraena's post above. That is rough, it happened to me, and like above I almost died. But the thing is I have become TERRIBLY jaded, and I no longer concern myself with Dating, or monogamy. If I dated someone I would be monogamist, but I never consider it my responsibility to preserve someone else's relationship (unless they are a friend, than it is a trust issue). But if I know someone is spoken for so to speak, and she flirts or makes passes, well that is her responsibility not mine. Bad I know, but trust me whne it happens to you about 3 times, you tend to get realistic
we have a 50% divorce rate in this country for a reason. And of the 50% that don't get divorced, you know at least 1/3 of them WANT TO. It is the attached person's responsibility to STAY attached.
HAH HAH! How did I get off on this tangent! |
| Yasraena |
Posted - 04 Jun 2003 : 05:27:50
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Yes, I'd have to say that women are more flexible, and not just in RPing. They don't have the sort of bullheadedness that comes from TPS. (Testosterone Poisoning Syndrome.  )
And I never said that I would have a problem with my girlfriend flirting with someone else. I keep a constant view that if she would be happier with someone else, I wouldn't stop her. I had that happen to me once. It was not fun, I can tell you that. That girl meant more to me than I could possibly say. But she told me she wanted it that way, so I didn't stop her.
Back on topic. The question, remember was if anyone here would have a problem flirting with someone else's girl/boyfriend. And I would. Like Eilinel said, it's a personal failing on my part. I have a very monogamous personality, and that goes both ways for me. People in other relationships are very much off-limits.
Dude, my heart goes out to you. I've had the same thing happen to me, and it literaly almost killed me. 
I too have a very monogamous personality, BW, and I wouldn't pursue someone that's already spoken for, even if she's the instigator. But I also know that if I flirt with that same person in character and in a game situation, it means nothing in real life. And I would hope that her S.O. would realize it as well. If he didn't, I would hope that either she or I would be able to educate him to that fact. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 04 Jun 2003 : 05:09:08
Yes, I'd have to say that women are more flexible, and not just in RPing. They don't have the sort of bullheadedness that comes from TPS. (Testosterone Poisoning Syndrome. )
And I never said that I would have a problem with my girlfriend flirting with someone else. I keep a constant view that if she would be happier with someone else, I wouldn't stop her. I had that happen to me once. It was not fun, I can tell you that. That girl meant more to me than I could possibly say. But she told me she wanted it that way, so I didn't stop her.
Back on topic. The question, remember was if anyone here would have a problem flirting with someone else's girl/boyfriend. And I would. Like Eilinel said, it's a personal failing on my part. I have a very monogamous personality, and that goes both ways for me. People in other relationships are very much off-limits. |
| Yasraena |
Posted - 04 Jun 2003 : 04:20:31
quote:
Originally posted by Artalis
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
<snipped>
In general, most of my psycological misgivings about this would fall away in a PbeM. In there, it's more like story writing. I know it sounds like a double standard, but it's all in the way you view it. If it's on paper (or on a screen), you don't have to look the other person in the eye. I could do a woman in that case. Just not while interacting with others in a 'live' fashion.
Agreed, it becomes less personal in a way and one is freed of the misgivings and fears as it is indirect and the players are seperated by distance and time usually, so no teasing or whatnot occurs.
Oh jeez guys! C'mon! What? Are we back in grade school again here? I thought that the content of the posts shown on these boards put all of us above that immature BS. My friends and I are old enough to know that what we do in character, in game is not what we do out of the game. In other words, just because I flirt with your PC as Yasraena, doesn't mean I'll flirt with you as Mark. If the group of people you're currently gaming with teases you because you respond realistically to a male playing a female that is coming on to you, then I'd suggest that either you tell them to grow the f*#k up, or find some other more mature people to game with.
quote:
Originally posted by eilinel
Yep, but answer one of the previous posts, i would put a question, what do u do if the girlfriend of ur best friend flirts with u -in the game, of course ?
Whatever u may answer, u would have some difficulty to make ur choice, and i can understand it but u see that its sometime hard to manage a game with friends and boyfriend.
I'd have to say that if either one of this couple had a problem with someone in the game flirting with their significant other while in character, they are showing a significant lack of maturity and an extraoridinary amount of insecurity. I can safely say that MY best friend would know that it was all in the game and in no way meant as a pass at his lady. He wouldn't be my best friend if it was otherwise.
This actually happened in a game I was in (although neither one was my best friend. Just gaming acquaintences). A female member was flirting in character with male member of the group, and so he was responding in kind, also in character. Her (then) boyfriend just lost it and threatened to kick this guys a** if he continued. Needless to say, the girlfriend gave him a ration of sh** (and then some), for being a complete jerk about it. In my expereince, I've found that the women are the ones who are more mature when it comes to this sort of thing. At least most of the time. |
| Brynweir |
Posted - 04 Jun 2003 : 02:28:42
From personal experience, I find that it has been easier for females to RP males than for males to RP females, at least for tabletop games (I have no experience with LARP or PbeM). For some reason that didn't seem to be as "creepy" for the guys I played with as a guy pretending to be a girl.
I used to RP with a group that was entirely male (14 people at one time) except for myself. (Believe me, in that situation after four years, you learn what guys act like when there are no girls in the room) Sometimes I would run a male character just to avoid all the stupid flirting and protective "stuff" that some of the new guys would try to pull with my character.
Most times I would run a female, because as I believe Zemd said, you can be flirty and seductive and get away with more. (kinda like RL) It helps that the majority of roleplayers are male.
In my part of the country there seems to be a lack of female roleplayers, and most guys here who are into RPGs assume that the girls are only there because of their boyfriends. In fact, I went to a games convention at Fort Knox, and one of the guys actually avoided flirting with me because he assumed that I was dating one of my friends that I had rode with. Fortunately, I talked to him, got his number, called him up, and a few years later we got married. |
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