| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Amnezjusz |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 18:11:39
Hi everyone :)
I have one question. Do you have any informations about male clerics of Lolth? In 'Faith and Pantheons' was written that only females can be clerics of Lolth but in 'Demihuman Deities' was written that 4% of her clergy is composed of males...so it makes me confused. Are there any Lolth's male clerics?
Thanks for quick answer :)
And sorry for my english. |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 00:45:59
Okay, I think we're kind of deviating from the topic itself here -- which is partly my own fault. And in the interests of keeping this scroll on topic, I'll take my own thoughts about nbnmare's and Zanan's comments to PMs.
So, let's bring this topic back to the OP's original point. 
|
| Zanan |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 00:17:17
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
That's not what you said, but whatever.
Added a bit above ... and cast *charm kuje*  |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 00:15:51
No, they equate to exactly the same thing:
"If the Wizards do decide otherwise, Ed's opinion is Ed's opinion" - if Wizards decide in the future to go against something Ed has said, his opinion on the subject will no longer be canon.
"That will only change if and when WotC may decide to alter them specifically for future inclusion into an FR sourcebook."- if Wizards decide in the future to go against something Ed has said, his opinion on the subject will no longer be canon.
Okay, so there is some wriggle room that Wizards might decide to go against what Ed said somewhere other than an FR sourcebook, but honestly how likely is that to happen? And why shouldn't something like a net article at Wizards.com be considered any less official than an FR sourcebook anyway? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 00:14:20
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
One wonders though whether he also decided about the chopping of the male clergy and crusaders of Lolth ...
I wouldn't think so, but that's just me. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 00:13:32
That's not what you said, but whatever. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 00:11:33
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Gellion
quote:
Originally posted by KujeI missed Zanan's idiot reply about this. What nonsense that Ed's words aren't canon when they are CLEARLY canon, unless WOTC has changed them and since he replied about Eilistraee's faithful/divine casters late last year/early this year, this IS NOT the case.
Now, now, be nice, it is just a fictional world we are talking about here. No need to get upset.
Trust me, I'm not upset. I'm just tired of ignorance, especially from people who should know better to even claim what was claimed.
Sweetheart ... we know each other long enough, so please read slowly again. I simply said what Ed said, and you said, and what we all know. The Wizards write the canon in books and novels. Most of that is Ed's creation. He himself only recently said that unless the Wizards say otherwise, all he writes on the Realms is canon. At least to most people's opinion. So if he says that Eilistraee has male clergy now, by default and common opinion, that is canon. Yet, if the Wizards decide to keep the old stanza (which they won't, IMHO), their word is canon for the Realms. That's all I implied above.
One wonders though whether he also decided about the chopping of the male clergy and crusaders of Lolth ...
BTW ... just to make sure you don't get ballistic for no reason, the quotation I refer to goes like this:
quote:
I passed this thread to Ed, and he verbally responded to me with some points:
The percentage figures he gave are for ALL drow, so it would be incorrect in the extreme to look for 10 percent or more of drow IN MENZO to worship Eilistraee. Almost all Eilistraean worshippers are on the surface (and no, the Promenade is not the surface; it, BTW, is of course NDA because of the forthcoming Undermountain book).
Ed still holds the opinion that Lolth is the "strongest" and most dominant drow deity, and always will be (at least underground). He just chuckled at all of this debate, saying drow and the gods are the topics that always seem to get Realms fans in such an uproar. He finds it especially ridiculous when gamers try to portray him as the champion of Eilistraee, pitted against Bob Salvatore as the champion of Lolth.
Yes, everything Ed says is canon until or unless contradicted by WotC-published lore. He IS the CREATOR of the Realms, folks (and the principal designer of the Menzo boxed set and the writer of DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, too).
All of which leads me to be very puzzled when anyone takes issue with Ed's opinions or statements regarding the drow. I don't recall any great rush of people telling Tolkien he got the Nazgul wrong, or telling McCaffrey she just doesn't understand the dragons of Pern...
love to all,
THO
By you know who not too long ago hereabouts with regards to Eilistraee.
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8236&whichpage=2 |
| Kuje |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 00:09:49
quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare
Zanan's reply wasn't "idiot" nor was it inaccurate; rather the Sage's selective quoting of his post made it appear as thought it was. Using quoting to make it look as though someone is saying they are not really isn't good netiquette, even for moderators. The quote should have looked like this:
quote:
but nothing is in there in print and if the Wizards do decide otherwise, Ed's opinion is Ed's opinion
Which is precisely in-line with what the Sage himself said in his reply.
Sorry, but you are wrong as well. What Sage said and what Zanan said are two different things. But Sage can defend himself. |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 00:07:50
Zanan's reply wasn't "idiot" nor was it inaccurate; rather the Sage's selective quoting of his post made it appear as thought it was. Using quotes to make it appear as though someone has said something wrong or inaccurate when in fact they did not really isn't good netiquette, even for moderators. The quote should have looked like this:
quote:
but nothing is in there in print and if the Wizards do decide otherwise, Ed's opinion is Ed's opinion
Which is precisely in-line with what the Sage himself said in his reply. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 00:06:41
While that is true... it would be wrong to let such inaccurate comments about Ed's replies here, stand without correction. Especially when this is usually a "significantly debated" issue on many FR-related boards, not excluding WotC.
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| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 00:01:46
I agree that Ed's words are canon...but it's also not a huge deal. Remember that in D&D there are exceptions to every rule. The vast majority of Eilistraee's clerics are still female, and if someone wants to make a male cleric of Lolth and has a great story behind it, I say let them. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 13 Mar 2007 : 00:01:22
quote:
Originally posted by Gellion
quote:
Originally posted by KujeI missed Zanan's idiot reply about this. What nonsense that Ed's words aren't canon when they are CLEARLY canon, unless WOTC has changed them and since he replied about Eilistraee's faithful/divine casters late last year/early this year, this IS NOT the case.
Now, now, be nice, it is just a fictional world we are talking about here. No need to get upset.
Trust me, I'm not upset. I'm just tired of ignorance, especially from people who should know better to even claim what was claimed. |
| Gellion |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 23:58:47
quote:
Originally posted by KujeI missed Zanan's idiot reply about this. What nonsense that Ed's words aren't canon when they are CLEARLY canon, unless WOTC has changed them and since he replied about Eilistraee's faithful/divine casters late last year/early this year, this IS NOT the case.
Now, now, be nice, it is just a fictional world we are talking about here. No need to get upset. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 23:51:50
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
...Ed's opinion is Ed's opinion.
Actually, no.
Ed's words here are considered canon. That will only change if and when WotC may decide to alter them specifically for future inclusion into an FR sourcebook.
So, Ed's original point on male Eilistraee divine casters stands in canon Realmslore.
I missed Zanan's idiot reply about this. What nonsense that Ed's words aren't canon when they are CLEARLY canon, unless WOTC has changed them and since he replied about Eilistraee's faithful/divine casters late last year/early this year, this IS NOT the case. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 23:46:57
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
...Ed's opinion is Ed's opinion.
Actually, no.
Ed's words here are considered canon. That will only change if and when WotC may decide to alter them specifically for future inclusion into an FR sourcebook.
So, Ed's original point on male Eilistraee divine casters stands in canon Realmslore. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 23:43:42
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
It's also possible the male clergy worship her under one of her aliases, such as Moander.....
Interestingly, the initial percentage of male clerics said to worship Lolth in DD may have actually been severely reduced after they perhaps discovered the "truth" about the Moander they worship. And thus, the reason for why no male clerics of Lolth are mentioned in F&P.
|
| Zanan |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 23:41:53
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
while forgetting to name the no-males-amongst-the-Eilistraeens.
As Ed has clearly explained, this is false now. Eilistraee does have male divine casters and male lay worshipers.
Honestly speaking ... we have nothing in print so far. There were clear guidelines throughout AD&D and even the recent novels show us not a single change in this "old" stanza. It "may" change, or there "could have been" male divine casters beforehand, but nothing is in there in print and if the Wizards do decide otherwise, Ed's opinion is Ed's opinion. Though it most surely weighs in much more than what our words on this. And that's not my opinion, that's fact.
As I have already said, it would be a travesty if the queue of gender-restricted faiths is reduced even further ... you see, there are probably no more than a handful left (if at all) and of those other 150plus most are already ruled by or dominated by male clergy as well. Now, that is almost a change to real life religion, isn't it ...
And while I am at it, it should make you think that the one clergy turned wholly female now is by default one your average adventurer (when you think of who predominantly plays D&D) would simply love to overthrough, given the nature of their clergy and its goddess. No wonder that you meet Drizzt-clones and Vhaeraun-males at each corner ... in-setting and at various P&P adventure games.
Dunno, as the Rangers won yesterday, I shouldn't be in such a rantish mood. No insult intended in any case.
NB: Rai-guy ... was a no-entity in AD&D and 3E terms, for the character as such broke rules by the score. |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 19:09:21
quote:
Originally posted by TomCosta
It's also possible the male clergy worship her under one of her aliases, such as Moander.....
Great minds think alike .
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Hm . . . if this does turn out to be something that cuts across the "WOTSQ" silence, Rai'gy may be out in the cold eventually. If he does still have his spells, its possible that his is a heretical sect, one that still allows males.
Spoiler warning:
Rai'gy won't be affected because he was killed in Servant of the Shard.
As for his sect, as I mentioned it is/was based in Chad Nasad, and that city was recently destroyed along with 90% of its population. That 90% could easily include every male priest of Lolth in the city. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 18:54:31
Hm . . . if this does turn out to be something that cuts across the "WOTSQ" silence, Rai'gy may be out in the cold eventually. If he does still have his spells, its possible that his is a heretical sect, one that still allows males. Oh, and from what Ed has said, it may not be the goddess involved that doesn't grant divine spells to the males, but the clergy refusing to train males . . . it could be after the Silence Lolth's priestesses decided to off all of the male preists "just to be safe." |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 18:48:50
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
while forgetting to name the no-males-amongst-the-Eilistraeens.
As Ed has clearly explained, this is false now. Eilistraee does have male divine casters and male lay worshipers.
While a slight off topic for Lolth priests disappearing, we still do not know why though Mr. Costa's offer might work fairly well.
Ed has indicated more then divine casters for Elistraee, he has indicated that Eiliatraee has male Priests though still very rare. Divine casters of course would include Rangers, etc.
So while it appears Lolth decided to get rid of all Divine casters (at least in her name) it appears Eilistraee is starting to premit them.
It still would be nice to know why Lolth removed male Divine casters. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 18:41:41
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
while forgetting to name the no-males-amongst-the-Eilistraeens.
As Ed has clearly explained, this is false now. Eilistraee does have male divine casters and male lay worshipers. |
| TomCosta |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 18:03:13
It's also possible the male clergy worship her under one of her aliases, such as Moander..... |
| Zanan |
Posted - 12 Mar 2007 : 17:28:01
BTW, Underdark is the most up to date sourcebook on Lolthite clergy and clearly states that there are not even male divine casters of Lolth. Got me wondering somewhat, for while F&P is about 90% Copy & Paste of F&A and DD, for some reason the designers had to squash the male thing amongst the Lolthites while forgetting to name the no-males-amongst-the-Eilistraeens. And while I am at it, the Arachne PrC conversion of the former specialty priest kit does not live up to the old class nor is it on equal par with others in that very book. Far to demanding to get and not as much in gains as you would want from a primarily NPC PrC. But that's just me.
Speaking of Lolthites ... you do wonder what happened to that Lolthite male-only Crusader Order called the Militant Myrlochar (DD). That's what happens when ... ach well. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 23:34:59
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Current lore trumps old lore, so there are no male clerics of Lloth.
Or it might be that the DD portrayal is more detailed, the later one more of a generalization. Regardless, on something so marginal the needs of the campaign outweight our quibbling: if you want to tell a story about an unusual male priest of Lolth, you should.
It may also be that male clercs of Lolth did, at one time, exist in the Realms -- in keeping with what we learned in Demihuman Deities, but that the initial four percent has simply fallen to nearly zero by the time Faiths & Pantheons was released. And since we don't have an official explanation as for why, you're largely free to determine how a small percentage of male clerics for Lolth still exist in your Realms today.
Ed's made it clear numerous times that if well established Realmslore, regardless of whether its been changed in 3e, is still relevant for your own campaign then there is always the possibility that such elements still exist somewhere in the Realms. Ed's discussion about how potions of longevity still remain in FR, despite the rules changes, is a clear example of this.
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| nbnmare |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 22:40:20
There's also some definite leniency in the "no male clergy of Lolth" rule when it comes to her various aliases. In particular, I strongly suspect that the cult of "Moander" includes male clerics amongst its ranks.
EDIT: Hmm, does this rule mean the character Rai'gy Bondalek is no longer canon? If so, that would mean The Silent Blade and Servant of the Shard--and by extension any subsequent Drizzt/Artemis story--is actually set in a non-canon alternate reality (where Lolth does allow male clerics) to the canon FR universe  .
EDIT 2: On a more serious note, I just read the Lolth entry in Faiths & Pantheons, and I see it only speaks in present tense. There's no reason why Lolth couldn't used to have had male clerics, even until very recently.
In fact, there is sound reasoning for this idea. The aforementioned Rai'gy Bondalek is said to come from a moderate sect of Lolth worshippers in Ched Nasad. Anyone who's the read War of the Spider Queen series or Sacrifice of the Widow will know what recently became of that city. If Ched Nasad is the only place where male worshippers of Lolth were ever tolerated (i.e. that entire 4% of her clerics resided there), then Demihuman Deities and Faiths & Pantheons could both be correct. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 19:06:53
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Current lore trumps old lore, so there are no male clerics of Lloth.
Or it might be that the DD portrayal is more detailed, the later one more of a generalization. Regardless, on something so marginal the needs of the campaign outweight our quibbling: if you want to tell a story about an unusual male priest of Lolth, you should. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 19:00:57
Although there is some wiggle room to say that there may be male "clergy" of Lolth, but not divine spellcasters . . . just a thought. If you are looking for an "in-game" explanation, it may be that after Lolth's Silence she never started granting spells to her male clerics again after that event, perhaps because of paranoia about the "traitor priests" as mentioned above. Yeah, I know Faiths and Pantheonsis in effect before WOTSQ, but we have had a few "in game" explanations lately that have been "in continuity" later than the statement that inspired them. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 18:36:32
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Current lore trumps old lore, so there are no male clerics of Lloth. It's just one of those things that doesn't have a in game explanation.
*nods* Yes I missed that in my answer, I was going to edit my post to indicate this.
Faith and Pantheons is current lore.
Demihuman Deities was former lore.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 18:30:50
Current lore trumps old lore, so there are no male clerics of Lloth. It's just one of those things that doesn't have a in game explanation. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 18:24:47
Well we do not have a canon answer for the change, or if one has be provided I missed it.
I offer two explainations for the males no longer existing.
Male clerivs of Lolth were never fully trusted and never allowed to rise high in level. Perhaps there might have been concern of them becoming traitor priests as well.
1) Lolth decided that males could not be trusted at all and ordered them sacificed wiping them out of existance.
2) Lolth decided that male could not understand females well enough, that she caused many to become female, the rest likely became driders.
Take your pick or come up with another explaination. *wink* |
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