| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 05 Mar 2007 : 12:24:57
I am trying to gather all the knowledge I can get combat tactics concerning fights.
I am not interested in large battle tactics, but which tactics an adventure group can use.
If there has been a thread like this before please give me the link. |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Bluenose |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 14:05:40
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
The travel formation
The formation way you sleep in, and watch formation
The fight formation (While attacking – Surprised (ambush) (surrounded) (under fire) - Making an ambush – Attack from behind
The retreat formation
A good formation to travel if you're worried about an attack in would go something like this:
Point - someone with good spot/listen who won't be easy to surprise, ideally mobile enough to break contact with an enemy and retreat to the main party. Don't stay right in front of the party, but don't let a big gap develop either. Rogues, rangers, barbarians and monks can all do this but the best class for it is the Scout.
Armoured healer - someone who is tough enough to withstand an enemy attack and who is able to heal a retreating point. They need to move to intercept attacking enemies. It's suitable for clerics, druids, and especially paladins.
Wizard/Sorceror - anyone who needs to be protected from direct attack. Ideally they should be able to cast spells to delay contact with attackers for a round or two, and grease is good for this. They may also have a familiar, and a flying one is very useful for scouting the flanks when you're outdoors.
Utility - someone who ideally needs a wide range of skills. A second healer in this position is protected from immediate threats, and if your other healer goes down is available to heal them. Some sort of ranged combat ability is valuable, whether through spells or missile weapons. Being able to support other characters in melee for a time is also useful. Anyone thinking that this sounds like a bard is right, but it's also suitable for some multi-class builds and for a Favoured Soul.
Melee specialist- your main damage dealer should go here. They usually have good armour and decent hit points, which means an attack from the rear isn't as dangerous. If the contact is at the front then a fighter in this position has a chance to decide where they are going to engage, rather than being at the front and not getting such a choice.
Rearguard - ideally you'll have a rearguard with good spot/listen skills to watch out for enemies to the rear. They also need to be fast enough to catch up when a fight breaks out in front of them. Missile weapons are valuable since they can start to affect a fight before they catch up to it. This is a good place for an archery-specialised Ranger, especially one who takes a mount as their animal companion and picks up Mounted Combat/Mounted Archery feats.
Some important things to consider when you're resting are:
Elves are really valuable since they need less sleep than other races - Warforged are better, but there's no need to use the E-word here  .
Rope Trick is more useful than you think, but it's not perfect.
It's a really bad idea to rest when you don't know what's in the adjacent areas.
Don't rest somewhere if there's only one exit. It may seem like a good idea to reduce the number of ways they can come at you, but it also means you've only one way to escape them.
Keep two people awake rather than just one, unless you really lack the numbers to do so. Then it's worth having a familiar stay awake as most are small enough to be carried by their owner while they sleep the following day.
It's worth checking the local area occasionally, which is probably best done by stealthy characters.
Combat formations:
It's hard to give rules, since they depend heavily on the fighting style of the party and the type of opposition you face. Here are soe considerations.
Think in threes - some to fight, some to flank, and some to support. If you can you want to fix the enemy in position with fighters, magic, or terrain. Flanking gives you combat advantages that can't be ignored, and if you can get two or three characters attacking one they will drop them faster which means less damage to you. Try to avoid committing everyone to a fight unless it's to finish it, as having someone in reserve gives you more chance to fall back or react to the unexpected.
Summoned creatures are useful, even if they only last one round, because they let you get a flanking bonus when they appear behind an enemy. They can also appear near enemy casters.
When surprised:
That's what your scouts are for, so hopefully it won't happen too often.  Try to delay in any way you can, if they seek melee then grease, web, or wall spells are extremely useful. Against archers your best choice is to cast something that reduces visibility such as fog cloud, which will reduce the effectiveness of their shooting. Regroup for a counter-attack or to retreat as fast as you can. Against missile troops in a position you can't reach it's possible that you can summon something that can, as there are flying creatures at every level of Summon Creature/Nature's Ally.
When surrounded:
If you have a choice, don't move into a position where you can be surrounded. The edges of rooms are safer for you than the middle, since the wall covers one side of the group. Watch out for Purple Worms and Umber Hulks though. Pick a direction to break out if you're surrounded and losing, and be prepared to expend any resources to do so.
When retreating:
This is probably the hardest thing you have to do. Spellcasters can help by having spells available that reduce mobility, and anything that can increase the mobility of your group is valuable. The last people to break contact need to be able to move fast, withstand damage, and avoid attacks of opportunity as much as possible. Summoned creatures may only be a speedbump, but you have to expect them to die. It's also worth checking that the palce you're retreating to is safe, and a familiar is good for that. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 09:47:32
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
The travel formation
The formation way you sleep in, and watch formation
The fight formation (While attacking – Surprised (ambush) (surrounded) (under fire) - Making an ambush – Attack from behind
The retreat formation
For travel:
Rogue or ranger as the vanguard, mage in the middle, cleric to the front, just behind the main fighter. The rearguard position is either another ranger or rogue. Or if that isn't possible, have the wizard's familiar sitting on his or hers shoulders looking back down the path travelled.
Watch and sleep formation:
Maximum sleep for the mage so his or her spells are fully refreshed, but only after they have cast Alarm. The watch time for the cleric depends on when she or he must pray for their spells.
Typically, there is no hard and fast rule for this situation though. It really depends on the situation. In hostile territory the priority of the party is to get out of there and find safety.
In unknown territory, I tend to post double watches. Rangers are useful with their animal companions and their ability to get somethign tasty for the evening meal.
I'd better get back to work. |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 09:12:13
First I want to say that I am really happy to se so many replies on this thread.
I really appreciate what you all have given me. THANKS!
All your replays got me to think of theist questions:
The travel formation
The formation way you sleep in, and watch formation
The fight formation (While attacking – Surprised (ambush) (surrounded) (under fire) - Making an ambush – Attack from behind
The retreat formation
If you have some good idea’s about some of the above questions please let me hear them.
Combat tactics concerning fights.
I was told to see in 2nd Edition fighters Handbook under tactics.
- Shield wall and polearms
- Wolf tactics
- Tactical mixes
- Rotation
- Spear carriers
And again thanks, thanks fore reminding me that Candle keep is a great place to seek and ask questions concerning D&D
|
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 04:45:13
Something I noticed with my PCs that I found facinating, that has worked for them so far:
1. Even if it doesn't seem like it will make a big difference, flanking is king for my PCs. Even the barbarian, who can hit things without even trying, will make sure he is in flanking position, in part because it gives him a few extra points to throw into a power attack.
2. I hate to compare an RPG to something like a first person shooter game, but I have noticed that the PCs often heal as soon as they can, as long as they know none of the healing spell will be wasted. If the barbarian takes 15 points of damage, he'll take a cure light wounds. Those 10 or so extra hit points are enough to keep them alive a round or so longer, long enough to strike the killing blow before your opponent.
3. Even guys that are traditionally slow seem to pick up "speed" advantages. A lot of the heavy hitters get improved initiative, which lets them get into flanking position, or get to the cleric for a buff, or whatever they want to do before things get hairy.
4. Calculated risks. In the first few rounds, my PCs gauge how much damage they are taking, and in the fight (sort of the opposite of 2 above) they "play the averages," meaning that they get very low on hit points before they call on the healer, gambling that they know how much damage the opponent is doing, and keeping them in the fight until they absolutely have to let up (and keeping the cleric doing other things that patching the party up).
This last one is indeed a gamble. If your opponent gets a critical, or has reserve power he hasn't used yet, there might be a problem, but a lot of times this pays off (and when it hasn't . . . well, that's why the cleric has the same number of Revivify scrolls as there are members of the party).
The reason I started paying attention to this is that I noticed that in a lot of fights, none of the PCs died, but nearly all of them were hurt badly. They did a really good job of balancing out the punishment and staying in the fight. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 06 Mar 2007 : 20:45:57
quote:
Originally posted by Victor_ograygor
I am trying to gather all the knowledge I can get combat tactics concerning fights.
Pay someone to fight for you.
If they're successful, kill them and take the glory.
If they're not, hire someone else.
If forced into combat my advice is study your terrain first. Most adversaries can carry heavy protection but it is a good guess that they don't protect the ground they stand on.
My PC's have won many a battle by collapsing a ceiling or turning the ground into a quagmire. This is where a bag of caltrops helps too. Grease spells and even simple prestidigitation spells can work too since they can chill or heat non-living material; and they're a ranged spell. Simply target the opponents groin area. The effect is not enough to cripple them but sudden temperature changes in that area are very unsettling. The best thing is if your spell-caster is of a higher level then your opponent doesn't know that. Ghost sound is also a distracting spell.
This is the main thing of combat for me. Never let your opponent know your true strengths. After all you want to kill him or her so why be honest.
The final bit of advice I have is used ranged weapons. Keeping your opponent at distance gives you more time to kill them. |
| dwarvenranger |
Posted - 06 Mar 2007 : 18:51:49
Successful Knowledge (arcana, religion, etc.) checks can reveal a creature's strengths and weaknesses so have your wizard pump those skills up and have others put a few ranks in them as well. Then formulate a loose plan based on the creatures +'s and -'s. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 06 Mar 2007 : 17:28:35
Some really good suggestions in this thread. At the risk of sounding redundant, I'll offer a few guidelines that I've found that have worked in our group:
1) Don't try to overcome the enemy's strengths -- capitalize on their weaknesses.
Don't fight the melee bruisers in melee combat -- don't let the wizard get his spells off. For instance, the mountain troll, the elder earth elemental, the gray render -- these creatures THRIVE on melee combat, and they can generally decimate a melee party of the appropriate level.
I threw a Mountain Troll against the 8th level party (5 characters, mostly combat-oriented, no arcane caster, only a druid for healing), and they made the mistake of engaging it hand-to-hand. It had 15 foot reach, and a single attack of opportunity was generally enough to put a party member out of the fight. The swashbuckler earned a single hit that dropped him from 49 hit points to 1 hit point -- wasn't even a critical, just an average strike. How did the party survive that battle? A few cataclysmically lucky rolls (or unlucky on the part of the troll), and the order of the bow initiate shooting it from a distance. Even so, it BARELY toppled, and only be being really stupid (ignoring the little swordfighters near it and charging the archer, provoking attacks of opportunity). (I play the monsters as appropriate for their intelligence, and the archer was doing it the most damage.)
My warmage, on the other hand, would have flown up into the air (alternate learning from PHB2) and blasted the stuffing out of the troll -- taken it down in 3-4 spells, assuming average rolls. And with two wands, well . . .
At the same time, only attack a wizard if you're able to counter or dispel his spells (see #2 below), or if you're reasonably confident you can surprise him (and he isn't already armored in expectation). Also, you never really want to fight a wizard in his sanctum.
2) Be Prepared. ("Only a moron* would bring a knife to a gunfight.")
When you're going up against a 20th level caster, you've got to imagine he's going to have a prismatic sphere or two, in which case you're going to need to disable it. Which means that if you're the wizard of the party (CHRIS!!) you better have the spells memorized to do it. Otherwise, you're eventually reduced to throwing party members through the sphere, so as to "knock the necromancer out the other side, where we can get him" (BEN!!).
If you know what the monster's going to do (or will likely do), you're in a great position. Never, ever, ever go into a dragon's cave without knowing that 1) it's there, 2) what it is (reds are very different from blues and require different tactics), 3) that you're ready. Protection from energy spells (or better yet, items that don't expire) are your best friend -- don't worry about boosting AC, as a dragon generally doesn't have trouble hitting you. Focus on staying out of its reach and negating the effectiveness of its breath weapon -- and that means bringing plenty of powerful missile weapons/spells, protections, and feats like spring attack and skills like tumble to the party. And do NOT fight a dragon where it has space to fly.
3) Maximize your bonuses.
The +2 you get from flanking might not seem like much, but that translates to a +10% chance that you're going to hit. Even if the creature has an abyssmal AC, there's always a chance you'll miss. Plus, sneak attacks ALWAYS help (if you can do them).
The +2 you get from charging again doesn't seem like much, but it's another +10% and a good way to get into the thick of the combat, particularly if you've got one of those pounce sorts of abilities (full attack at the end of a charge). Then again, if the creature can kill you with a single attack (see #1, above), think twice about sacrificing -2 on your AC -- particularly if you're charging into a group of foes, which will take full attacks on you.
4) Make the enemy flee/maximize your attacks of opportunity.
Self-explanatory. Manuever yourselves into a position where the foe will have to move past a lot of you to get a better place. Surrounding your foes is a good strategy (unless, as in #1 above, they're melee machines, in which case it opens you to lots of cleave attacks).
A good variant is to hide in the shadows until your foe runs past you, then stab him in the back (ahem -- my characters).
Try this: four rogues, at the four corners of a square, one space between all of them. An enemy moving through the group provokes attacks of opportunity no matter where he goes, and they'll be flanked (thus sneak attacked).
5) Use trickery.
Attack from concealment. Use cover. Be a camper.
Don't worry about people who call you cheap -- "cheap" = "alive" in my book.
6) Run.
Don't be afraid to run away. You don't want to waste any of your resources needlessly, and if an enemy has the drop on you, it's likely that it can kill you in that position and knows it. (As a side note: D&D encounters are often structured to maximize the creature's strengths -- don't be a sucker.) Don't stand and fight, except perhaps to protect party members as they run away. Work as a team, even when you're fleeing.
You'll always know more for next time, even if it's just the pattern of its breath weapon and its favored tactics.
Cheers
* Ahem. Altered the quote for the sake of keeping it PG-13.  |
| Bluenose |
Posted - 06 Mar 2007 : 15:52:59
Tactics for an adventuring party depends too much on the specific composition of that party and the type of enemy they are facing for any hard and fast rules to be useful. However, there are some general suggestions that may increase effectiveness, as well as specfic suggestions for particular classes or against particular monster-types.
Rule 1. Have a plan. It will go wrong, but it gives you an idea of how you're going to start a fight. You don't need to go into great detail, but it's much better for people to have an idea of their general role than not. Something as simple as saying that the wizard will concentrate on eliminating enemy leaders while the fighter and cleric deal with the "grunts" gives people an idea of what you're trying to do.
Rule 2. Know your own capabilities. You may be able to come up with a brilliant plan that will certainly lead to the defeat of an enemy, but if it's beyond your ability to carry it out then you've got to try something else. Don't try for a fast, mobile fight when your group contains a gnome in full plate armour, and don't try to charge into the middle of your enemies and lay about when your main fighter is at half hit points and the cleric is out of healing.
Rule 3. Know your enemy. Anything you can find out about the enemy before a fight starts is valuable. If you can identify them well enough to deduce what they are vulnerable to then you can decide who has the best chance to deal with them.
Rule 4. Control your enemy. Limiting what an opponent can do to things you can deal with is difficult but possible, especially for arcane spellcasters. Spells such as Grease, Web, and the various Wall spells are especially valuable for this, but illusions and enchantments can be equally useful in some circumstances. Make an enemy fight on your terms, rather than you fighting on theirs.
Rule 5. Match your strength against their weakness, rather than pitting strength against strength. You don't want to send your main melee fighter against their main melee fighter unless you have to. It's much better to get your fighter into melee with a spellcaster, while your spellcaster disrupts or controls enemy melee specialists.
Rule 6. Communicate! Once the fight starts, don't assume everyone will keep track of what's happening without getting any clues. If the wizard wants to cast [i]Fireball[/], they need to let everyone know so that they won't move into the area where the spell is going off. This may give information away to your opponents, but if you use some code words that's much less likely. Although they may get a clue that a "Poppy Attack" is a bad thing to wait around for when the party fighters turn and run as soon as the sorcerer calls it. :)
Rule 7. Fight as a team. Different character types cover each others weaknesses. The wizard isn’t normally going to survive long in melee, and the fighter isn’t going to win fight after fight without being healed in-between. Rogues won’t get flanking bonuses when there’s no-one to help them, and won’t last long when they’re the main enemy target. Any time your party gets too spread out their vulnerability increases massively. If the cleric can’t get to the fighter before they bleed out, or the wizard is in melee while the fighter is engaged some distance away, you’ve got a big problem.
These are just general principles, which don't apply specifically to D&D. Being more specific depends on what you’ve got and what you’re fighting against.
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| Conlon |
Posted - 06 Mar 2007 : 03:18:36
Oops- just noticed that I echoed a few of Bladewind's suggestions. One that he touched on that I forgot about was communication. This is one of the most important ones. However, this is always one of the easiest ones to "cheat" with. While running my game, I don't allow the players to make plans with each other while combat is ongoing, unless the characters are near enough to each other and would have the luxury of strategizing and speaking. While in combat, they also wouldn't have the "top-down" view of the game from which to make their plans. I just try to keep it a little realistic that way.
Sorry - I rambled. |
| Conlon |
Posted - 06 Mar 2007 : 03:14:47
Mike Tyson said it best: "Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face". Basically, when you make a tactical plan and then combat begins, things change and your plan goes out the window. However, this doesn't mean you shouldn't make plans... Plans are merely a schedule from which to make changes.
General tactics include:
- using cover, concealment, and movement to prevent being targeted by your enemy
- using terrain to your advantage and your enemies' disadvantage
- using magic to reduce your enemies' strengths
- use magic to increase your allies' power
- make your enemy fight you on your terms (if he needs to be close to damage you, then fight him with ranged weapons and vice-versa)
- use the element of surprise - 1 round of a few free attacks can make a big difference (it always amazes me how rarely my party utilizes their scout who has maxed out his stealth abilities and has great bonuses)
- use flanking - if I was fighting something like a troll, I would do everything in my power to be behind it where it couldn't reach me!
- if your foe uses hit-and-run tactics or other movement-based attacks, find a way to keep it in one place, even if it means a big fighter hanging off of it
Anyways, those are a few things to keep in mind. When it comes to tactics, in real-life, simple is usually best. When you have the luxury of sitting around a table with friends, looking at markers on a grid, you can be a bit more creative... |
| Bladewind |
Posted - 06 Mar 2007 : 00:31:55
Use cover. Flank. Expend ammo, not manpower. When in melee focus all attacks at the biggest threat versus lower encounterlevels. Vs higher level encounters focus attacks on the weakest enemies first. Control the battlefield and the exact moment of engagement (the right terrain). Follow a flexibel battleplan and communicate constantly.
Warm winds and good travels
Bladewind (expert adventurer extraordinaire)
^^ |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 05 Mar 2007 : 20:37:16
Well I have used sitting down and thrusting up, this works for a small cracter sometimes. As the Hamster has indicated tatics will vary greatly. It starts from if one perfers ranged weapons and/or spells to being the "tank" that perfers to walk into the middle or the foe and killing 8 at a time. The party make up, equipment and foe all effect what tactic is used. Sometimes running away to fight another day is the best tactic. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Mar 2007 : 20:24:04
It would depend in large part on the monster being fought and its tactics... But the other factors still apply. A tank and a swashbuckler, for example, will have different tactics in identical situations. Reduce them both to 25% of their hit points, and they'll both assume a different sort of tactics...
The 2E monster books were, in my mind, a lot better about describing the tactics of various monsters. 3E does discuss it, but most 3E monster entries aren't as detailed as the 2E ones were. |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 05 Mar 2007 : 20:12:24
Yes I agree with you, but there must me some knowledge in some of the books were you can find something about tactic when fighting monster.
I have a feeling that this space hamster believes in The Maid of Misfortune, also known as Lady Doom |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 05 Mar 2007 : 17:31:51
It's really hard to give anything approaching a hard and fast answer, here... Tactics are going to depend on a lot of factors... Change just one factor, and you change the tactics.
Some of the factors:
Party composition
PC personality
Party capability
Equipment
Environment
Prepared spells/magic
Enemies faced
Party/PC objectives
Current status of party (rested and battle-ready, worn-out and wounded, etc) |
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