| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| RodOdom |
Posted - 03 Mar 2007 : 18:30:21
Are the gods the incarnation of what they represent? Is Lathander renewal and rebirth itself? Is Bane tyranny itself? Or are they just advocates of qualities or natural phenomena that would exist without them? |
| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| David E |
Posted - 16 Mar 2007 : 23:52:21
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
The planes and their denizens are influenced by mortal belief, but the gods are entirely sustained and formed by them, for better or for worse. The definition of some of these beings also puts the lie to the orthodox mythology of the origins of the first deities of Toril; it may be more metaphor than anything else, or else we have to hand wave a bit and make some wild assumptions about the nature of Ao and his hand in creating something that otherwise reverses the typical first formation of gods arising from mortal worship.
Personally, I was always a little bit iffy about the fact that Selune, Shar, and Chauntea are the most ancient deities in the Forgotten Realms, yet other ascended deities (*cough* Cyric *cough*) are of the same divine rank. I like your interpretation of the deities Shemmy. |
| Shessair |
Posted - 15 Mar 2007 : 01:55:51
A good link into Faerun regions, races and with some succinct backgrounds and context to human deities is:
http://excelsior.cc/wikcelsior/index.php?title=Sune
As an example I set the link to Sune, who is popular throughout Faerun.
Enjoy!
Shessair |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 04:06:50
Deities aren't primal concepts, nor are they really manifestations of primal concepts. Rather, they're manifestations of mortal understanding (or misunderstanding) of such concepts.
Just as an example of such primal beings, Baatezu and Ancient Baatorians for instance are living extensions of the raw concept of Tyranny and Lawful Evil as they exist stripped of mortal conceptions and conceits. Bane is the Faerunian god of Tyranny, he's LE, and he might promote his own version of LE, but he isn't a representative of the metaphysical substance of that universal idea. For all the power his worshippers grant him, he's incapable of understanding Lawful Evil in the same way the fiends of Baator do.
Deities are mortal belief writ large, beings that have a less basic connection to the raw concepts underlying the structure of reality, but beings who have a more intimate association with mortal conceptions of those things. The oldest fiends and celestials are incredibly alien in a way, representing ideas that existed long before gods and mortals even existed on the multiversal stage, but gods are going to have an easier time interacting with the mortals whose faith and worship empowers them because they formed around a more approachable spin on those ideas.
The planes and their denizens are influenced by mortal belief, but the gods are entirely sustained and formed by them, for better or for worse. The definition of some of these beings also puts the lie to the orthodox mythology of the origins of the first deities of Toril; it may be more metaphor than anything else, or else we have to hand wave a bit and make some wild assumptions about the nature of Ao and his hand in creating something that otherwise reverses the typical first formation of gods arising from mortal worship.
Granted the 3e FR cosmology tosses a lot of the basic concepts and definitions of all things planar in D&D to the wind and doesn't entirely present anything that fills the void, or takes into account the implications of interloper gods, other worlds, etc. But I'll play nice and not go further down that road. ;) |
| Tyr |
Posted - 04 Mar 2007 : 15:37:10
I think its a bit of both, the god has to enforce their portfolio but also their portfolio has an effect on them, if that makes sense. They aren't the source of them, except in a few noted exceptions. ie. Tyranny would still exist if there was no god with that in their portfolio, its just that acts in that domain add to their power. |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 04 Mar 2007 : 12:12:58
Well, certainly not everything that is represented by a god has to be represented by a god. I mean, there were numerous portfolios that existed during the time of Netheril that no longer belong to any god. Two excellent examples are dreams and nightmares, which used to belong to Shar; even though no god has them anymore, I think it's safe to say that the people of Faerun still have dreams and nightmares  . |
| The Sage |
Posted - 03 Mar 2007 : 23:53:44
Specifically, Ed said -
"...Chauntea IS the land and all of its natural processes (as opposed to partial aspects of them, such as storms or the emotions and deeds of sentient inhabitants of the planet)..."
Some of these other partial aspects that aren't part of the land, that aren't part of Chauntea, could be embodied in deities that have dominion over such aspects -- like Talos and storms for example. And with Chauntea, these deities that are the incarnation of what they hold dominion over, perhaps form an integral weave of divine influence that permeates the entire Realms.
I do agree, however, that this is difficult to answer. I think Ed's revealed a little of what he thinks on topic of the nature of the gods. As it is, I would interprete that to mean that the exact nature of the gods should be difficult to completely ascertain. Mysterious, and always partly unknowable.
I would agree with the view on interloper deities as well. Unless we're talking about home-grown Realms powers, deities that have been part of the world since the beginning of their existence, then they cannot completely invest themselves in the aspects they represent. There will always be a part of these interloper deities that reminds them that they were originally... "aliens" to the Realms.
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| Kuje |
Posted - 03 Mar 2007 : 20:27:16
Hard to answer, however Ed has repeatedly said that Toril/Faerun IS Chauntea herself and Mystra is the Weave itself. So, some deities are the things they have domain over.
Myself, I always figured that the interloper deities are partly restricted over the things they are domain over while the original FR deities are the things they have domain over, since they have been there as far back as the records go while the interlopers came from other planes. |
| Kiaransalyn |
Posted - 03 Mar 2007 : 19:28:23
I would suggest that the process happened so long ago that it is hard to say what came first, the deity or the phenomena.
Did Lathander appear fully formed from the first ray of sun-light or the from the first flowering bud of the first Spring? I would suggest that proto-Lathander (or should that be Amaunator?  ) evlved into what he is now hence it is very difficult to determine what came first.
Maybe all of the deities are just simply aspects of Ao, a deity whose name is rather evocative of Alpha-Omega.
It's a nice question and I'm looking forward to reading the answers of others. |
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