| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 12:15:52
I thought of this while reading the Sune vs Sharess thread. The sterotypical Judeo/Christian morality doesnt apply in the Realms at least not universially as the realms is polythesic. The foundation of western morality is the 10 comandments so using that as base which commandments would be valid for which deities
The following are the 10 commandments (Abreviation mine)
1) Thou Shall have no gods but me
This one wouldnt apply in eds home campaign where you can have multiple patrons but would do to a certain degree in the published realms where you have to take a patron deity (Well you dont HAVE TO but you'll end up in Mykruls wall if you dont)
2)Thou shall not worship graven images
This one probably would apply across the whole panteon of deities if you interpret "graven images" as being worshiping false gods then it would apply to the Faithless
3) Thou shall not blasphemy
There seems to be quite abit of blasphemy in the realms (at least going off Elaines novels  )While a deity probably wouldnt bother to flame strike every blasphemer a follower of a deity who heard some one cursing his god might take it up with the blasphemer
4)Keep the Holy day holy
Every deity in the realms seems to have a holy day or 2 but would they care if followers of deity didnt go to "church" on the holiday?
5) Honor your parents
This one probably varies on deity to deity basis, Chaotic deities would probably encourage children to rebel and disobey their parents while Lawful deities may support it, although Tyr probably wouldnt support "Honor your parents" if your parents where evil and using their children to commit crimes
6)Thou shall not murder
This one can probably be broken down into 3 groups
No killing at all (maybe Eldath)
Justified killing: Killing in a war/self defence/at your deities command ie Crusades (Probably most deities fall into this category) although this one sort of brings up the arguement about what a Paladin should do to Orc children)
Kill anyone you want! Go nuts!! (Bhaal or Cyric)
7)Thou shall not commit adultry
Probably only applies to Lawful deities most Chaotic deities probably dont care
8) Thou shall not steal
This one probably varies on deity to deity basis, a follower of Torm who steals may well find himself in strife with his deity, a follower of Mask who steals will more than likely have earned Masks favour
9)Thou shall not lie
More than likely only really a problem for followers of Lawful deites (although LE follower can probably get away with stretching the truth or acting in bad faith without getting into trouble
10) Thou shall not covet/desire other peoples "stuff"
This commandments weird and probably doesnt apply in the realms
Discuss
Edit: Thread name changed to better convey what the discussions about |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Faraer |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 23:05:17
'You and me together against the world' is a chaotic kind of marriage. 'You and me bound for ever under God, Church and State' is a lawful one.
The CG alignment of elves corresponds to Gary Gygax's conception of them: flighty and capricious like the elves of Spenser and Shakespeare, with only a little of the Tolkienesque and sub-Tolkienesque admixture of Realms elves and later D&D elves, which don't fit CG so well. Of course Realms elves have 'chaotic' and 'lawful' aspects, and I don't think alignment is very helpful in understanding them. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 20:19:22
Elves are generally shown as "chaotic" creatures, and yet some elves end up as having the Raport, which is pretty much the elven signal for "you found your soulmate." And we know that elves do have marriages.
Plus we also have the scene in Beyond the High Road with Tanalasta with her marriage. I'd say that in some cases marriage in regards to lawful/chaotic religeons is more a matter of how formal the ceremonies, bethrothal time, etc. are and less weather or not they have it.
Not that all chaotic religeons/societies would, but many would and do . . . if this has made any sense at all. |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 19:48:52
Indeed, a chaotic merchant would find life impossible if they couldn't make legally binding contracts ;) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 18:51:40
It's not a problem. 
This is my opinion, but I don't see why marriage needs to be a flat-out lawful thing, nor do I believe that no chaotic character (or deity) would ever have any problem with adultery. Otherwise, why not just make up a rule saying chaotic characters can't get married? Besides, just because marriage is (in the secular sense) a lawful contract doesn't mean that non-lawful people won't partake in it. People of all types will follow laws and legal procedures, unless they are living alone out in the wilderness, or in a lawless settlement, and so forth. |
| Ilztfryn Claddghym |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 06:01:39
Sorry it is probably my fault for mentioning it :( |
| Donager |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 05:49:59
My apologies. I wasn't trying to debate the political merits of this. I was trying to explain a point of view. Moving forward, I'll do my best to avoid crossing that line. I'll even avoid teetering on it. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 05:44:00
Okay, fellow scribes... we're kind of swaying into real-life religious and political discussion here now. Let's try and bring it back to Dargoth's original post, otherwise I'll have to seal this scroll.
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| Donager |
Posted - 23 Feb 2007 : 05:17:53
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
The thread was created to discuss what the different faiths of Faerun consider "Moral behaviour" I used the 10 Comamndments as they tend to be the foundation of "Morality" in western countries (Most scribes are from Europe, North America or Oceania)obviously none of Faeruns deities are going to embrace all 10
Marriage is ultimately a lawful act its a legal agreement between 2 people.
If you check out the Law vs chaos section of PHB it says that "Lawful" implies Honor, Trustworthiness, Obedience to authority and reliablity
Chaos implies Freedom, adaptablity, flexiablity.
As such Chaotic people/Deities dont put the same value on giving their word as Lawful People
Marriage is a religous act. a Civil union is a lawful act of a government.
I realize they are similiar, but in America, we see a lot of division regarding gay marriage due to this very difference. |
| Ilztfryn Claddghym |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 19:37:38
Thanks for the explanation |
| ShadezofDis |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 16:08:31
I think it's some good "food for thought" but it's in that really dangerous area of "you could say something that someone finds horribly offensive" ;)
That said, I think comparing Judeo-Christian morality with Realmsian morality is comparing apples and oranges. The two societies are WAY to different.
I'm gonna stop there, because I often say the "horribly offensive" thing in a religious discussion (not even on purpose either!) ;D |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 00:10:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Criticizing real-world religion is something we wish to avoid.
I agree, and like Ilztfryn I don't see why matters that the FR doesn't follow the 10 Commandments (although as said before, many of those laws are good for any society). |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 23:45:52
The thread was created to discuss what the different faiths of Faerun consider "Moral behaviour" I used the 10 Comamndments as they tend to be the foundation of "Morality" in western countries (Most scribes are from Europe, North America or Oceania)obviously none of Faeruns deities are going to embrace all 10
Marriage is ultimately a lawful act its a legal agreement between 2 people.
If you check out the Law vs chaos section of PHB it says that "Lawful" implies Honor, Trustworthiness, Obedience to authority and reliablity
Chaos implies Freedom, adaptablity, flexiablity.
As such Chaotic people/Deities dont put the same value on giving their word as Lawful People |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 23:41:25
I'm sure everyone is just commenting. Criticizing real-world religion is something we wish to avoid. |
| Ilztfryn Claddghym |
Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 23:19:12
May I ask why it matters if FR doesn't follow the 10 commandments? I am a christian and I have no problem with Forgotten Realms so I am just wondering are you critisizing here or just commenting? |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 22:53:45
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Familial attitudes are a relative blank spot in our knowledge of the Realms, actually. Is there residual ancestor worship in Faerūn?
I was wondering that myself. Ancestor worship was (and is still, depending on the society) quite prevalent in the real world. And just about every society that I can think of pays respect in some manner to the departed.
As for the commandment "Honor thy father and mother", from what I've read on the subject it was a command telling people not to abandon their elderly parents just because they were too old to take care of themselves, or for that matter, contribute to the survival of the greater community. Of course, like many other parts of the Bible there are broader ways to interpret that commandment, besides just how it applied in the harsh desert cultures of the Bronze Age.
quote:
These are all generally a good idea, though 'adultery' varies with how you've agreed to live with your partner...
Yes, that's basically what I was trying to get at before. If both parties agreed to an open marriage, adultery wouldn't be an issue. If they agreed to be faithful only to each other, it WOULD be an issue. |
| nbnmare |
Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 19:20:51
Note to Americans: ass in this context means donkey, not the buttocks. If you guys would just learn to spell properly (i.e. 'arse'), you wouldn't have this problem  . It gets even worse when you start talking about 'wild asses'... |
| Faraer |
Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 19:14:16
The actual ten commandments are much more interesting than the pop-culture versions. I'll quote from the King James translation because I don't know of an accurate, modern, scholarly one.quote:
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Well, this is henotheism, and the Realms isn't henotheistic (not just in Ed's campaign!). But individual people have devoted relationships to gods that they oughtn't turn their back on.quote:
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; and showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Note that this expressly forbids representational art. This is partly an extension of the 'jealous henotheism', partly an injunction against idolatry: the worship of non-divine things. That will be less prevalent in the Realms, given the greater manifestation of divinity.quote:
Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
This varies by god. On the one hand the Realms is less culturally logocentric than Old Testament theology, on the other, it has powerful truenames.quote:
Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Again, varies by god, and doesn't apply as much in Faerūnian polytheism.quote:
Honor thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Familial attitudes are a relative blank spot in our knowledge of the Realms, actually. Is there residual ancestor worship in Faerūn?quote:
Thou shalt not kill.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.
These are all generally a good idea, though 'adultery' varies with how you've agreed to live with your partner, and I doubt Realms religion enshrines property rights as an a priori virtue like capitalism does. Note: 'Thou shalt not kill', not 'Thou shalt not murder' -- the latter just means 'Don't kill except when the priests say it's OK', as in the rest of the Bible.quote:
Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbor's.
This is also a good idea: stealing other people's stuff is usually bad news, and so is wanting other's people's stuff but not getting it, personally and for societies. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 18:44:50
Against my better judgement, I'm going to make a few comments...
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
7)Thou shall not commit adultry
Probably only applies to Lawful deities most Chaotic deities probably dont care
Who said? If one's adultery hurts someone else, I don't see why some deities would not care. I say it depends on the specific situation.
quote:
9)Thou shall not lie
More than likely only really a problem for followers of Lawful deites (although LE follower can probably get away with stretching the truth or acting in bad faith without getting into trouble
The actual commandment is "thou shall not bear false witness against thy neighbor". If you tell a lie that hurts someone else or gets an innocent person in trouble, then yes, I think most goodly deities would have a problem with that.
quote:
10) Thou shall not covet/desire other peoples "stuff"
This commandments weird and probably doesnt apply in the realms
Discuss
What's weird about it? I can say from a non-religious point of view that it's probably good advice in many cases, even if it's not possible (I believe jealousy is simply a part of human nature).
In any case...really, what's the point of this thread? It's interesting, but I'm sure most people here already KNOW that the Realms isn't a setting that uses Judeo-Christian morality. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 13:58:34
Some of the (original?) commandments are only there to regulate society and how it can function, some are more focused on deity worship and hence not really applicable to society.
I say this not to offend anyone out there, but merely stating a fact.
The Realms are Pantheonistic (is that a word?), and as such the whole one-deity-centric issue is not worth bothering with. Even if a Cyric worshiper claims there is only one true god (ironic that this religion is the monotheistic direction as far as I can tell), he would still sacrifice something to Umberlee when doing a sea voyage...he'd be a fool not to, otherwise he'd end up in the ocean as the only member of the passengers, caught by a stray wave on an otherwise calm sea.
Som societies function differently...even nowadays, and the 10 commandments (or those that deal purely with sociological aspects) would be scorned at in Rome, and that civilization stood for quite a while longer than any other nation we currently have...and adultery was a hobby there *shrug*
Just thought I say something... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Feb 2007 : 12:28:47
And be careful in the discussing... We don't need a debate on real-world religions or religious values. |
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