| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 21:15:32
I'm debating what should be both plane's origins since they don't seem to fit the cosmology of the Realms now.
My current idea is the Nine Hells is a prison that Ao created for Gods that were no longer useful to the universe. Sort of like Tartarus is for the Titans. The Archfiends of the Nine Hells are gods that withered without worship and were forgotten.
Perhaps Asmodeus is the former Sun God of Netheril.
The Abyss I'm thinking might be the Chaos that was before the universe and what's left of it.
Anyone else got some origins ideas for the two planes?
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| David E |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 05:26:21
Thanks, Sage. It's always good to know that new ideas are welcomed. And I completely understand the irritation people have with the changes to FR's cosmology.  That said, I will make sure to stay on-topic. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 05:15:51
quote:
Originally posted by David E
For future reference, to what extent should we discuss changing existing FR canon? (as opposed to filling in gaps, which, although non-canon, do not conflict with facts that have already been established.)
Discussion about changing existing canon -- for your own campaign -- is always something that can be discussed here at Candlekeep. It's part of why the Running the Realms and Adventuring sections are so important to this site... because every DM's likely had something they've changed with regard to the canon Realms for their own campaigns.
However, I think it is important to note that some of these discussions tend to "hit upon" pre-existing feelings -- whether positive or negatve -- scribes have when regarding certain changes to canon Realmslore. The planar changes are one such example. Discussing planar changes you've made in your own campaign are fine, just so long as you clearly indicate that this is how things are for your own campaign and not how you consider the canon FR cosmology. Though, that won't prevent such a discussion from being mired in the kinds of planar debates that plague this forum at times. It happens. And we have to acknowledge that. But, at the same time, we as mods also have to respect the wishes of both sides in such debates, which usually means we either seal the scroll in question or try to bring the discussion back to its original topic.
It's difficult to properly answer a question like this, since we've had planar discussions in the past that have managed to stay on-topic despite the occasional diversion into discussions about the 2e-to-3e FR planar changes. So, it is possible...
However, and to put it simply, I think it's best that you just try and remember that while almost always unintentional, these kinds of discussions will almost likely veer off-topic at some point. And that we all have to play our part to ensure that the original topic remains under discussion.
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| David E |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 04:15:12
I certainly don't want to make any of the fine folks here at Candlekeep angry either. If that has happened, my apologies. It was not my intention.
For future reference, to what extent should we discuss changing existing FR canon? (as opposed to filling in gaps, which, although non-canon, does not conflict with facts that have already been established.) |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 17:05:58
Sorry, wasn't trying to 'change' anything, just trying to come up with reasons why it did change. I assumed by answering that question it would in turn answer the Original question of "How do you fit it in". I may have gone off on a tangent, but I felt it was just another possible answer, albeit a long-winded one.
No more "You got your choclate in my peanut butter" from me.  |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 14:10:31
Noted sir.
In no way was I trying to deflect such a thread from me.
:-)
Honest.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 14:08:24
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Someone should come up with a thread on "alternate ways of looking at FR's planes" or something.
While I'm more than a little hesitant to say this... I really don't think that's something that should be considered right at this moment.
Let's just continue with this planar discussion for the time being, and see how we go. I'm all for planar chit-chat, though... judging from some of the private comments I've received about this scroll over the last 12 hours, I'm more than a little worried that other scribes may be a little uncomfortable with some of the attitudes expressed here.
Thus, I think it's best we just maintain the present planar focus on alternate origins for the Abyss and the Nine Hells -- remembering that these are all non-canon interpretations and should be considered as such by all scribes who wish to respond.
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| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 13:34:26
In the case of Keith Baker's Eberron, he's stated that they're not connected to the other campaign settings in cosmology and it's meant to be a self-contained universe though you COULD visit other realms by the Shadow or adding in portals to Sigil. Ironically, he says he doesn't want to make his world more complex by tying it into the cosmologies of other universes.
Seeing as how this has been so controversial, I can't say I blame him.
While I don't want to get involved in a GT vs GW debate...I do think some of these ideas are really cool. Someone should come up with a thread on "alternate ways of looking at FR's planes" or something. I really liked the idea that the Great Wheel and Great Tree are just semantic viewpoints.
In my games, again non canon but so is everyone who uses the GW now, I had the Great Wheel revealed to be a misunderstanding of planar physics that was created by a mad Candlekeep monk assembling the notes of various planar walker wizards in such a way as to fit his conception of a perfectly ordered universe.
This ties into the Nine Hells and Abyss origin as they were treated as the Planes of "Good and Evil" while Elminster pointed out that such things were not nearly so cut and dry.
Here's another origin possibility for the Nine Hells and Abyss.
1. The Abyss is the former homeplane of Moander, Bhaal, Lolth, and Orcus. Orcus is now the only returning deity to this plane of existence even as Lolth moved out and the others have since died out. That's assuming that we're not going to just ignore the "there are no deities in the abyss" thing and state that demon princes like Bapomet are actually deities in FR as the Monstrous books imply.
Thus, the Abyss is a home of dead deities as opposed to being the odd man out.
(Do all of the "original planes" start in the Ethereal in the Great Tree in your opinion or are they created as break-offs of the Cynosphere? What was the 'creator' plane?)
2. The Nine Hells is the (former?) homeplane of Set, Bane (whom has carved his own dimension like Lolth), and so on. Now, its mostly depopulated as well. The only real question is why Bane left a dimension that he probably carved himself.
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| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 10:19:44
Exactly so. Since the Prime material Plane has millions of little 'bubbles' called spheres, then why can't each of the Outer Planes have corresponding 'bubbles' in them, with the various world-specific God-realms located therein. For all we know, Faerun's Abyss could be located trillions of miles away from Greyhawk's Abyss in another section of the 'Main Abyss'. Theoretically it is possible for a mortal to travel from one to another, but it would be EXTREMELY unlikey do to distances. Demons, Devils, Angels, etc.. do not have this problem, they simple move from 'bubble' to 'bubble' at will. However, mortals can travel to locations that are 'common' to all realities, such as the realms of Demon-lords and Arch-Devils. A prime from Greyhawk and another from Faerun could 'run into' each other in Asmodeus' domain, but both would have to travel back via there own personal 'piece' of the plane.
The 'bubbles' on each plane 'resonate' (for lack of a better term) with a corresponding 'bubble' on each of the other planes. Like I said, take it for what its worth, but it helps me to sleep at night. |
| David E |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 09:55:20
quote:
Originally posted by The SageSo, we're definitely examples of WotC making efforts to reconnect the Great Tree with a great deal of the older planar lore, despite the supposed nature of the Great Tree itself being a "separate" planar framework and unique to the Realms.
That's what I'm trying to do with my theories about the Abyss, the Nine Hells, and Mount Celestia. If these planes exist simulatenously within both Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms, perhaps the two cosmologies are indeed still connected? This is, of course, simply my own theory that probably breaks canon.
Markustay - that idea actually sounds really good, and is in fact similar to what I was imagining - although you described it far better than I ever could have done. So, to clarify this, you are saying that the Abyss or Nine Hells that exist in relation to one material plane (be it Greyhawk, the Forgotten Realms, or some other plane) is the same Abyss or Nine Hells that exists in another? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 04:50:40
I still think my answer was the most plausible, minus the stuff about the Lady of pain being the Emperor, that was tongue in cheek.
Please hear me out - I feel that by TOTALLY trashing the old cosmology WotC has overstepped their bounds. You can change anything you want about a setting, but you can't seriously tell thousands of people to forget EVERYTHING they have read for the past twenty years. They are not in charge of THIS reality, and by trying to 'erase our memories' of the past is just a little weird. That is why I feel my solution was far more plausible.
The Great wheel is the DEFAULT cosmology; it even says so in core books. It doesn't REALLY exist; it is just an abstract concept to explain the different dimensions and their relationship to each other. In a magical universe, they don't have things like String Theory or Heavy Gravity to explain how it all fits together, so they fall back on mythology. That means if an Overgod does not make any changes to the cosmology, the wheel is the way the natives of his sphere 'perceive' it to be.
Ao, after taking a looking at many of the recent problems decided to 'remake' the universe, but what he merely did was change people's perceptions. This also modified their memories, much the same way Ravenloft always modified the memories of those people it 'stole' from other planes. Now folks from the Realms can ONLY interact with the cosmology in the way represented by the tree. They can't interact the same way as someone from Greyhawk would, or Eberron, because they 'believe' in their cosmology. Like a great big giant illusion, when you believe in it is real to you. This does not make it any less real then the wheel cosmology, because that in itself is the 'default' illusion. The way the planes REALLY inter-relate is beyond mortal comprehension.
I will try to describe what I mean a little better this time. Picture one of the infinite planes as a piece of bubble wrap; a GRAT BIG piece of bubble wrap with tens of thousands of miles between the bubbles. The bubbles also vary in size, from that of a city to that of an entire world. Most bubble's 'harmonics' (Quantum Signature) are keyed to a certain Crystal Sphere (Quantum Universe). When interacting with the Abyss, a Realmsian caster would be summoning creatures or deriving energy from the bubble attuned to his Sphere. A Greyhawk caster would only be able to do the same from his bubble. The greater fiends, those with individual names, live in fortresses between the bubbles (mostly, someone like Asmodeus probably has his own private bubble/realm). Since fiends can teleport to any point on their home plane the distances between bubbles are practically non-existent. So if Orcus wanted to, he could stroll from Greyhawk's Abyss to FR's Abyss without bothering to move through the intervening space. If a 'Prime' tried to do that, they would have to walk all those thousands of miles because they would have NO WAY to teleport to a location they were unaware of. Also, they would not be able to travel to any plane that did not exist in their cosmology. Planes that don't exist on the Great Wheel still exist, they are just (usually) a Sphere-specific demi-plane (free floating bubble) that may or may not be linked to a 'true plane'. As in the case of Eberron's Shavarath, it is close to Hades because the Blood war takes place there, but in THEIR cosmology archons have joined in the fray, so I would say it is probably a 'dimple' on the 'top' of the plane of Hades, and would only have major access to Hades and Eberron, and minor access to the celestial staircase for the Archons. Many of these unique planes are probably 'bubbles' that exist between major planes, and are campaign specific. Demi-planes such as Ravenloft and Faerie would have tenuous connections to all planes, with portals opening and closing depending on either the nature of the plane itself or the 'proximity' of the plane to other planes and spheres.
You see, in this way we can have the best of both worlds. The tree does indeed exist and always has (as far as Faerunians are concerned), and all the other cosmologies exist as well in a much greater cosmology. Also, this way, those of us who have been playing for twenty years (along with fans of Planescape) do not have to throw out everything we know. To support this, on pg 62 of the manual of the Planes it shows three separate cosmologies and how they inter-relate, although they only show they plane of Shadow as one universal plane. I'm only suggesting that all of the major planes work along similar lines. The only way for someone from one sphere to inter-react with the outer plane from another sphere would be to use 10th level magic, something only gods can do. Most likely, Ao's edict concerning the new Cosmology would probably affect anyone below DvR 1, so even Demi-gods would assume it has always been this way. Something like that would be up to the individual DM to decide who remembers what, but I like the idea of 'crazy' people remembering the 'old ways'.
I am not counter-manding what Gray Richardson has proposed; on the contrary, what he put forth sounds like a VERY plausable way the people of the Realms would remember it to be. Even the information in books and tomes would have changed (Ao's the man, what can I say). It's just that, with my theorem, we get the added bonus of knowing WHY it changed (aside from the obvious "because WotC says so"). I'm sorry if I have bored you with all of this, I just have a deep-rooted need for closure.
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| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 00:20:09
I believe Cyric is at work on occasion.
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| Dargoth |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 00:19:07
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Aye.
I think it's best that we just move on. As some of us have learned in the past, planar discussions here at Candlekeep can become heated at times. So, I think it's far more appropriate for us to try to remain specific to the scroll's topic for the time being.
and by Heated he means the threads take on an errie green glow in the dark  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 00:15:41
Aye.
I think it's best that we just move on. As some of us have learned in the past, planar discussions here at Candlekeep can become heated at times. So, I think it's far more appropriate for us to try to remain specific to the scroll's topic for the time being.
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| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 00:11:31
I'd like to point out that I learned from previous threads where I butted heads with others and withdrew before it got serious. That should say much about how much I've changed as a citizen of this tight little community.
So, anyone got a Great Tree origin for the Abyss and Nine Hells.
And for a Great Wheel, how would the two interact with the Realms' deities in your opinion?
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| Kuje |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 00:06:16
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
Now, having said all that, I really think it's time we returned to a discussion about the origins of the Nine Hells and the Abyss.
Aye. :)
And as I said over on that other page, don't blame me this time. I wasn't going to answer this thread but Mace asked a serious question and so I answered him.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 00:03:51
Now, having said all that, I really think it's time we returned to a discussion about the origins of the Nine Hells and the Abyss.
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| Kuje |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 00:00:33
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Thanks Sage.
I now get it. FR has changed from Star Trek into Sliders.
:-)
Basically. :) |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:59:02
Thanks Sage.
I now get it. FR has changed from Star Trek into Sliders.
:-)
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| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:56:42
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Kuje I don't get your meaning. Perhaps because I'm not thinking D&D but in science fiction.
I presume Selune and Shar are the gods of the entire FR Prime Material Plane. That potentially gives them the power over thousands of worlds we don't know about. Take Lolth in Evereet the novel. The Lolth of the FR Prime Material Plane isn't the one in Greyhawk, but that doesn't mean FR Lolth isn't goddess over a million million worlds.
The CAMPAIGN settings are divided but there's nothing keeping you from running Spelljammer in the FR cosmos.
I may be misunderstanding the new set up though, if so then please correct me.
We have no canon lore that says there are any other solar systems except for the one that Toril is a part of. So, to say that FR's Material Plane has more solar systems is an assumption based on no facts (I.E, canon lore) to support it. This is why I asked this question to Ed and why I'm waiting for his reply.
And as we know, Spelljamming is still a known "aspect" of planar travel/spheroid travel in 3e FR -- this is due in part to comments made by Rich, Ed and the few details mentioning spelljamming in the FRCS. However, with no firm lore published about what's outside the Torilian planetary system, we are left with very little to work with in terms of exploring Realmspace beyond Toril's system. This is so as you adhere to the fact that FR's Prime Material is now an infinite expanse. Realmspace does NOT equal the Realms Cosmology. Realmspace is the Crystal Sphere in which Abeir-Toril (and other planets and celestial bodies) exists, and this Crystal Sphere, in the new cosmology, is a part of the Tree.
quote:
So, to say the FR deities are known outside of Toril's solar system is a false statement unless you have canon facts to back it up. And if you find some, please share because me and Sage have trolled through every FR sourcebook and novel and Dungeon/Dragon and web content and neither of us have yet to find any such statement.
Indeed.
This is because each campaign setting now has its own Prime Material Plane. As such, the multiverse could potentially contain hundreds, thousands, or even millions of individual Prime Material Planes, each of which would have their own individual planar networks connected to them ONLY. To simplify this a little, this means that there could now be more than one standard version of a deity or plane (for example, there are now hundreds of Seldarine courts each of which are related only to a particular campaign setting), whereas in 2e, the Seldarine on the Great Wheel was the Seldarine that the FORGOTTEN REALMS and GREYHAWK settings could relate to.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:56:17
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
The deities in the new planes don't have absolute power over their planes. They only still have absolute power over their planar realms. Mystra is the exception, as I said. Shar DOES NOT rule the Shadow Plane with absolute power.
Exactly.
The fact that prominent planar/divine beings in 3e FR aren't their 3e core D&D counterparts means that events happening to one deity in one cosmological structure ie the core D&D Great Wheel... has no bearing on Realms entities with the same name. The similarities end there -- removing the shared body aspect of 2e.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:55:48
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
The change was redundant...*sigh* I never got the reason, or lack thereof, anyway
Neither have most of us. :) Especially when WOTC continues to make FR's oh so different cosmology a carbon copy of the cosmology FR had for 2 editions. Oh, that's right, now it's shaped like a tree instead. Sigh.
Indeed.
And given that the listings of the planes in 3e aren't complete... there's still plenty to be covered concerning the individual outer planes that comprise the new Great Tree cosmology. And some of which will likely reconnect with older more established planar lore which, again, will seem to make the 3e FR planar changes, even more irrelevant.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:55:16
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Oh, and if anyone is a step below Ao, it's Mystra and Chauntea.
And for those who are curious about this, Ed's said it once or twice in his replies here.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:54:51
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
unless the celestial stairways and infinite staircase are still there and can be used. If not, well how could Waukeen be freed?
Sigil, the World Ash, the Staircase, the River of Blood, and the Shadow Plane can all take you to the other cosmologies and around FR's cosmology. Adding those pathways defeated the purpose of changing FR planes in 3e, since the game designers who changed the planes said they wanted to to remove FR totally from the other cosmologies. So, FR's planes basically have returned to the old cosmology because WOTC continues to add in the planes and pathways from the old cosmology. Lisa added the Outlands back to FR's cosmology in her 3e psionic trilogy. Eric has added the Far Realm and the Plane of Mirrors, etc.
RAS even slipped a reference to Gehenna into Road of the Patriarch...
So, we're definitely examples of WotC making efforts to reconnect the Great Tree with a great deal of the older planar lore, despite the supposed nature of the Great Tree itself being a "separate" planar framework and unique to the Realms.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:54:20
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by David E
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That's not likely... The Lady of Pain would never allow such a conference to occur in the City of Doors.
I thought only gods were barred from entering Sigil - what about overgods?
My point EXACTLY. She makes quite a bit of cash hosting the conference, although a lot of that is spent on cleaning up the city afterwords. She also REALLY hates the funny little hats. 
The Lady of Pain has no interest in "cash."
Her primary concern is, and always has been, the protection of Sigil and its neutral position as a planar travelling hub for the multiverse. Allowing gods, overgods, or any divine power into Sigil potentially threatens that function of the City of Doors.
Her Serenity would never allow that to happen -- Sigil is Her domain... and woe to any power that tries to change that.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:53:28
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Can't we just toss the new cosmology overboard? *shrug* Has there ever been any plausible explanation as to why it happened?
There's never been a canon official answer, no. :) We've been asking for one for 6 years now. We are just supposed to believe the old cosmology for FR never existed and it's always been the Tree.
Indeed.
I think, perhaps, if those of us who are disgruntled with the planar changes, had something "in-game" -- such as an explanation -- it wouldn't be so bad. At least then, we'd have something to work with in terms of relating what those of us who are intimately familiar with the Great Wheel know, with the Great Tree.
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| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:53:16
Touche.
It's hard to take Torm seriously as part of a "group of equals" Triad though. I could if it were Helm but Torm is a former paladin of Tyr.
Ilmater also doesn't seem like he'd care who gives the orders either.
But that's beyond the scope of this thread. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:52:34
quote:
Originally posted by David E
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
That's not likely... The Lady of Pain would never allow such a conference to occur in the City of Doors.
I thought only gods were barred from entering Sigil - what about overgods?
No deific power can enter Sigil... the City of Doors effectively shuts all powers out. it's been that way since the publishing of the Planescape campaign setting.
To actively deny such a prohibition, we'd need to know more about what the Lady of Pain is, exactly, and how her power can be limited so a god could enter Sigil.
Until them, it's not going to happen.
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| Kuje |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:52:19
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
The Old Great Wheel cosmology. I was commenting that I didn't like the planar realms versus having seperate planes for each deity unless they had a reason to be together. Then I commented Ed had Bane as one of the Big Dogs of the Plane in his original Dragon articles on the Nine Hells. That goes in to my idea that the FR deities should be big and powerful, not minor.
I'm pretty sure that Tyr is ruler of the Triad in the same way Zeus is ruler of Olympus even if the other gods dwell with him. What he says, goes. Then there's Cyric whose the only god of his realm.
How does that affect my point? I assume you mean deities that don't have their own particular Heavens and are servants of greater deities. No Azuth shouldn't rule his own dimension because he's a servant of Mystra, ditto Velsharoon.
As stated, it doesn't work. My conception of the idea was erroneous but instead of the insanity of Zeus dwelling on the same dimension as Corelleon Lantheon, you could just insert the dimension of Mount Olympus as undiscovered. I actually had a wonderful game with the Great Tree by having Primus and Mechanus appear in the Realms Cosmology and become dire enemies of the world.
As would I. Infinite diversity over smashing together a billion myths into a Wheel of Alignment.
Yes, but the Great Wheel was built on the assumption that there were only these. It takes a huge rewrite of the ideas inherent to the system if you add a Plane of Law or Evil when things are so precariously balanced with the Blood War and so on.
Lets try this again so that maybe you'll get it if I repeat it for a 3rd time.
Planar realms have NOT CHANGED. With the exception of Mystra. Every other deity, except her, rules ONLY over their planar realm, not the plane itself. Zeus rules his planar realm, not the plane itself. Again, no different then the 1e and 2e and 3/3.5e cosmologies of FR, no matter which version you are using. Azuth does rule his own planar realm, just like every deity. THIS hasn't changed!
It's more then just saying Zeus lives in a undiscovered plane in the current cosmology. It involves divine politics, his worshippers, how the other deities and clergy see him and his clergy, etc. It's just easier, for me, to say that he is a multi-sphereic deity and so if he has worshippers on FR they are not enough to keep him as a greater deity while the other worshippers on the other worlds allow him to keep that divine rank. Etc.
Yes, let's smash everyone into a few planes and say that's diverse. Your comment there is just really strange.
It doesn't take huge rewrites to add new planes since TSR did it very easy. I guess it's based on your assumption that that is so hard to do, when it isn't. Look, I want the Far Realm added to the Wheel, done. Or the Plane of Mirrors. Done, it's a new demiplane. Etc.
To say what I said before, WOTC continues to do this for both cosmologies. Which is why FR has become more and more like the old cosmology. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:51:17
Julius Caesar was one of three consuls with all an equal share in the power...at first, and since ole Julius was busy killing everything north of Italy he never had that much time to rule, and when he had it quickly became a little less than a triumvirate |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 23:49:44
Well I'll let you get down to my epilogue to the campaign.
But the Mulhorandi and Unthic pantheons came with immigrants too didn't they? That's a question rather than an argument. They're not part of the Creator race humans but just humans from a different world.
Also, I love the Realms but isn't your point that you currently disagree with a major part of canon currently?
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