| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 03:25:26
Have the rules for this game by the dark elves ever been documented? My searches so far haven't yielded anything.
I have a couple of requests for the sages here.
1. Can anyone with Drow of the Underdark tell me if there is anything on the game in there.
2. Any suggestions where references, however minor, might be found.
I'm considering, if it hasn't already been done, trying to create the rules for the game of sava , based on as much information as I can possibly find. I have the war of the spider queen books as a good start 
Thanks all |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 22:30:02
Sheepz- that would fall more under "chaos", than "luck". |
| Sheepz |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 19:49:42
quote:
Alystra Illianniis Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 00:05:32
The eight-sided dice makes more sense to me than normal six-sided ones. Spiders have eight legs, after all, and that number might be considered more "lucky" or important to drow for that reason. Like the number seven being found in craps because it has so many correspondences elsewhere. Just a thought. Also, I have done something like this with a game I created for my own realm- a drow card game called "Eight-Legs". It's like Blackjack mixed with Hold 'Em, but one must gain a higher multiple of eight in your hand than your opponents to win the round. The rules are mostly the same as in Blackjack, except that instead of trying to get closest to 21 without going over, everyone tries to get the highest multiple of eight that they can out of their hand of five cards. (Or seven if one plays a seven-card version). You can discard and/or redraw once per hand, but only discard two cards at most. You don't have to redraw, but it can mean the difference between winning and losing the round.
Quite well thought of - the link between the eight-sided dice and the spider (although I'm not sure that 'luck' would be a useful term here, after all what use is luck if my opponent has it as well?) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 07 Oct 2011 : 00:05:32
The eight-sided dice makes more sense to me than normal six-sided ones. Spiders have eight legs, after all, and that number might be considered more "lucky" or important to drow for that reason. Like the number seven being found in craps because it has so many correspondences elsewhere. Just a thought. Also, I have done something like this with a game I created for my own realm- a drow card game called "Eight-Legs". It's like Blackjack mixed with Hold 'Em, but one must gain a higher multiple of eight in your hand than your opponents to win the round. The rules are mostly the same as in Blackjack, except that instead of trying to get closest to 21 without going over, everyone tries to get the highest multiple of eight that they can out of their hand of five cards. (Or seven if one plays a seven-card version). You can discard and/or redraw once per hand, but only discard two cards at most. You don't have to redraw, but it can mean the difference between winning and losing the round. |
| Lady Shadowflame |
Posted - 01 Oct 2011 : 17:39:39
I do agree that it would be entertaining to make an online game based upon the rules in that doc. |
| Zireael |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 19:36:20
quote:
Originally posted by Sheepz
I've been searching for information about sava for a while myself, and I found two sites that show some information about them.
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dksbzwn_0fvchhthm
In that site it is stated that one could choose to roll the dice every turn, that however there is a 75% chance that nothing happens, and thus it is quite risky (in the nature of the drow...). The dice that are mentioned on this site are 8-sided, rather than 6-sided, and also provides some possible tactics. And how the game would start.
It is ofcourse just one site, but it is definitely worth checking.
That's better than the project I saw once on the net. Much better. I think I'll save it somewhere for future reference.
BTW it would be great to see a flash game based on it...
EDIT: Bump. Anyone know if there's a sava game on the web? |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 11:02:30
Thanks, guys! That was interesting! |
| Sheepz |
Posted - 03 May 2010 : 10:11:50
I've been searching for information about sava for a while myself, and I found two sites that show some information about them.
http://docs.google.com/View?id=dksbzwn_0fvchhthm
In that site it is stated that one could choose to roll the dice every turn, that however there is a 75% chance that nothing happens, and thus it is quite risky (in the nature of the drow...). The dice that are mentioned on this site are 8-sided, rather than 6-sided, and also provides some possible tactics. And how the game would start.
It is ofcourse just one site, but it is definitely worth checking. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 12 Jan 2007 : 05:03:16
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
Great quotes there Ergdusch thanks. Also TobyKikami very well pointed out that they do indeed use d6's.
KEJR, as I read it the dwarves did not have this element of the game at all. It says clearly that the drow found a way to introduce the chaos into what would otherwise be a purely strategic game, implying that they modified it. That is if indeed we assume it was a dwarven game and not perhaps simulating the war between the drow and the grey dwarves, which I see as more likely. Thats what I believe the reference to 'other games' means, however I also believe the text says that the drow version is not the only version, so we know it's not just them that play it, but I think assuming it was dwarven in origin might be a bit of a misinterpretation (though could well be correct).
Good point. For some reason when I read through that my brain skipped right over the statement that the drow added the element of chance. Hooray me for running off on a tangent without digesting all of the information at hand  |
| Zimme |
Posted - 11 Jan 2007 : 08:49:58
I might be wrong, but do you remember the old Menzoberranzan boxed set? There was several map in it and one of them was a map with all twenty higest ranking houses symbol's all set up in a giant spider-web. I instantly thought of that map when i first heard mention of save in Dissolution. Maybe that the board is like that...Only speculating here. |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 13:58:57
Great quotes there Ergdusch thanks. Also TobyKikami very well pointed out that they do indeed use d6's.
KEJR, as I read it the dwarves did not have this element of the game at all. It says clearly that the drow found a way to introduce the chaos into what would otherwise be a purely strategic game, implying that they modified it. That is if indeed we assume it was a dwarven game and not perhaps simulating the war between the drow and the grey dwarves, which I see as more likely. Thats what I believe the reference to 'other games' means, however I also believe the text says that the drow version is not the only version, so we know it's not just them that play it, but I think assuming it was dwarven in origin might be a bit of a misinterpretation (though could well be correct).
|
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 13:49:42
BTW - if sava was so 'common' in the realms than why did they not include it in the list of games in FRCS (p. 96)? |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 13:32:42
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
The playing pieces
quote:
(...)mother, priestess, wizard, warrior, orc slave soldier, and dice (...)
Particular playing materials
quote:
(...)onyx and carnelian pieces.
First, thanks for the quotes - really a big help! Great!
Second, these are the infos from Dragon issue #100 on the DRAGONCHESS game - just so we can compare - regarding:
The playing pieces
Each force on the upper board consists of six Sylphs, two Griffons, and one Dragon.
On the middle board, each side possesses one King, one Mage, one Paladin, one Cleric, two Heroes, two Unicorns, two Oliphants, and twelve Warriors.
On the lower board is made up of six Dwarves, two Basilisks, and one Elemental.
In all, there are 42 pieces per side, or a total of 84 pieces in the game.
The playing Board
playing surface for DRAGONCHESS is a three-tiered structure of rectangular boards, with each board composed of a grid 12 squares wide and 8 squares deep.
and Particular playing material
opposing forces are designated as Gold and Scarlet, Gold always moving first.
Third - reading the above I doubt that sava is related to the DRAGONCHESS game in any way. If sava had somhow three levels it would have been stated, I believe. Further, a piece as unique as a 'Dragon' would have been mentioned by Pharaun for sure. And moreover, a game so complex would be expensive to build and therefore I doubt that usual guards (as in 'the alabaster staff') could affort such a game.
Just to through in some stuff to muse about....
quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
Well, seeing as the dice are described as "cubes," they're most likely six-sided - but who's to say there's only one spider per die?
Exactly my thinking! |
| TobyKikami |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 00:42:08
Well, seeing as the dice are described as "cubes," they're most likely six-sided - but who's to say there's only one spider per die? |
| LucianBarasu |
Posted - 10 Jan 2007 : 00:27:37
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Considering the drow love of chaos, I'm surprised the dice aren't used more often than once per game per player. Especially since -- unless those dice are not standard 1d6s -- there's only a 1 in 36 chance of being able to move one of the opponent's pieces.
Knowing Drow, they are probably 2 sided dice!
flip a dice, get spiders! |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 22:44:21
First off, thanks Kaladorm for refreshing my memory. This gets me to thinking. Its possible that this might have been another race's game. Dwarven boards might look more like geometric patters (hexagons or octagon within on another, more angular and precise than a web). This also got me to thinking. In the WOTSQ books, the element of chaos factor was almost listed as a temptation to chaos loving drow. If dwarves played this game as well, they might well use the random "chaos" to teach just the opposite lesson.
In other words, drow are told to favor chaos and be bold and "go for it." Dwarves might use the loss of a turn for a chance at success as a lesson on remaining steady and not deviating from a good plan, and perhaps as a lesson about greed and getting ahead quickly with less work as opposed to doing things the "right" way.
This is kind of interesting to me in that you have two races with nearly diametrically opposed viewpoints that might both play a game with the same rules, and use those rules as object lessons in a different way.
For what its worth, if dwarves also play Sava, its possible that any references to humans and other surface dwellers playing the game might be the "dwarven" version of that game, since dwarves are a lot more likely to be introducing their games to humans and other races than drow would be.
Of course all of this gets me really curious as to the "actual" origins of the game itself. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 17:13:26
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
My thoughts exactly. They make quite a big deal of a player rolling the dice to early in the game and wasting an opportunity in one of the descriptions of a running game, and to me a 1/36 chance of something happening is hardly reliable, or even that valuable.
Exactly. Giving up a chance to move for a 2.8% chance of a favorable outcome? I'd only do that if there was absolutely no hoping of winning, or if I'd just donated a million gold pieces to the nearest temple of Tymora.
Me, I'd do something like have the dice rolled every turn, and only a particular combination or number would allow for a reroll. The number on the reroll would dictate the results, with these as some of the results:
Nothing.
Get an extra throw of the dice.
Get an extra move for one of your minor pieces.
For an opponent's piece (either minor or major) to make a move of your choosing.
Or -- for real fun -- for one of these results to be reversed, with your opponent getting the benefit, not you.
That would seem more reasonable, to me at least, for a race that loves chaos -- to inject as much as possible into a game.
Of course, one possibility is that the game was originally described with those options -- but they were either trimmed out for pacing or dropped for word count. |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 15:21:45
Minor note: I believe the game is pronounced sa-VA, similar to the french expression ca-va, (or possible SA-ver) (short er sound). Does anyone have any opinion on this? |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 15:19:05
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Considering the drow love of chaos, I'm surprised the dice aren't used more often than once per game per player. Especially since -- unless those dice are not standard 1d6s -- there's only a 1 in 36 chance of being able to move one of the opponent's pieces.
My thoughts exactly. They make quite a big deal of a player rolling the dice to early in the game and wasting an opportunity in one of the descriptions of a running game, and to me a 1/36 chance of something happening is hardly reliable, or even that valuable.
The way it is written implies that the use of the dice is more of a game-turning strategy, one that shakes up the structure of the game (not literally) enough to change the winning side.
The only possibilities could be other outcomes of dice rolling (doubtful) or different die to d6 used. The text implies that the dice can be used to the effect we know, and only that effect when two spiders are rolled. However one of the other lines states that there are symbols (plural) incised into the dice, though how many and how varied is unclear |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 14:26:45
Considering the drow love of chaos, I'm surprised the dice aren't used more often than once per game per player. Especially since -- unless those dice are not standard 1d6s -- there's only a 1 in 36 chance of being able to move one of the opponent's pieces. |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 14:11:15
And now for some quotes from Dissolution (wotsq novels). I don't believe there are any spoilers here (apart from mentioning the characters) but if a mod feels then please do edit this post :).
quote:
Still, Pharaun was amused to see that his friend's eyes lingered
on the web-shaped sava boards for an instant, which was likely all the time he required to analyze
the four contests in progress.
I retract my earlier statement about sava being drow in origin, it is entirely possible that it was brought to the underdark from elsewhere, and modified by the drow (and likely claimed as their own hehe) as below
quote:
Sava was an intricate game representing a war between two noble Houses—at least that was
what it currently represented. Pharaun had seen an antique set that recapitulated in miniature the
drow's eternal struggle with another race, but such pieces had gone out of fashion long before his
birth, probably because no player had wanted to be the dwarves.
However this is most certainly a drow modification, though gives no clue as to how hard it is to get the 'two spiders'
quote:
With its gridlike board regulating movement and its playing pieces of varying capacities, sava
resembled games devised by many cultures, but celebrating the chaos in their blood the drow had
found a way to introduce an element of randomness into what would otherwise unfold with a
mechanical precision. Once per game, each player could forgo his normal move to throw the sava
dice. If the spider came up on each, he could move one of his opponent's pieces to eliminate any
man of its own color within its normal reach, a rule that acknowledged the dark elves' propensity
for doing down their kin even in the face of a serious external threat
The playing pieces
quote:
Pharaun, who privately considered himself cleverer than Ryld, had always been a little
chagrinned that he couldn't defeat the weapons master at sava., but alas, his friend wielded
mother, priestess, wizard, warrior, orc slave soldier, and dice as brilliantly as he did a sword.
Particular playing materials
quote:
In three more moves, his onyx
wizard and orc would trap and mate his opponent's carnelian mother.
As usual, he had accomplished his victory without recourse to the dice. Truth to tell, those
clattering ivory cubes with the magically warmed images incised on the faces were the one aspect
of sava he didn't like. They interjected blind luck into what should be a contest of pure cunning.
and confirmed
quote:
The hulking swordsman stood pondering a sava board, where
he'd set up a problem with the onyx and carnelian pieces.
|
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 14:03:43
I think we can still assume it was created by drow. I'd also imagine that, whilst it's an interesting game, it probably has far more interest to a drow than to any other race, given that it is, in a sense, an embodiment of their society, and perhaps the non-underdark races (like humans) just wouldn't 'get' it on that level.
The fact that you may roll a dice once a game is a given. We know Ryld doesn't like the random element in the game (he has expressed on occasion the need for structure, and Pharaun has admonished him for blaspheming hehe), but I wonder how much respect is garnered for the player who wins a game without resorting to a roll of the dice. Whether he is respected for his skill alone, or looked down on for not 'trusting to chaos'. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 09:43:43
quote:
Originally posted by Lawfire
Is "sava" a strictly drow game? I am reading, "The Alabaster Staff," and two private guards were playing the game instead of being vigilant. It mentions something about dice and gambling also, I'd have to go back and re-read the section to get the details. This took place in chapter 8, I dont' want to put any spoilers in my post, but I did notice they were playing "sava."
I do rember that as well, now that you mention it. First mention of the game (and it is spelled out: sava) is in Chapter 7, page 88 in actually.
the other mentioning about the game is in Chapter 8, page 94 and reads: "Pony up. It's my roll."
Now what do we make out of that? 
1. At least that it is not a game of the drow exclusively - at least not anymore, KEJR.
2. And that it has to do with rolling the dice, which I think is mentioned above already - the chaotic element to the game that drow like so much but Ryld doesn't?!?! |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 04:22:27
I initially felt that Sava was a dark elven game, and when I mentioned it in my campaign, one of my player's character, a dwarf, who often went to have conversations with a drow prisoners, learned how to play it. I played it up as something that some people with connections in the Underdark might know about, such as dwarves, svirfneblin, duergar and the like.
The problem is, I have seen a few references to Sava since I first read about it. I sometimes get the feeling that its used as a reference to a "Realmsian" board game, in lieu of a few other Realms board games that we know about. It would be good to get a bit more of a definitive origin of the game from a lore perspective. |
| Lawfire |
Posted - 09 Jan 2007 : 04:16:29
Is "sava" a strictly drow game? I am reading, "The Alabaster Staff," and two private guards were playing the game instead of being vigilant. It mentions something about dice and gambling also, I'd have to go back and re-read the section to get the details. This took place in chapter 8, I dont' want to put any spoilers in my post, but I did notice they were playing "sava." |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 08 Jan 2007 : 09:43:38
quote:
Originally posted by Aureus
You mean, one is playing on three different boards at the same time and if you lose on one you lose on all?
IIRC the goal is the same as it is in the 'common' chess game - to
checkmate the opposing King. However, it is more complicated for the game develops on three levels with some of the figures (but not all) being able to move from on board to the next (that is up and down). |
| Aureus |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 19:40:50
You mean, one is playing on three different boards at the same time and if you lose on one you lose on all? |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 10:52:03
Interesting thought, to go and write/find rules for the sava game. Could it be helpful to go and ask Ed or RAS?
Anyhow, keep up the research for I am very interested indeed. I will try to be more helpful in search in the future!
Until then, I would like to point out that there was a variant of our modern Chess game discribed in DRGON issue #100 called DRAGONCHESS (by Gary Gygax). It has three levels (upper, middle & lower board). |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 03:42:46
Sadly I don't own a copy of Hordes of the Underdark any more for NWN, but if anyone has played it recently and can remember any taverns visited there that might be helpful . |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 03:39:26
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
For some reason I am thinking that the board was circular or web shaped, but I can't remember the exact reference.
That was in Dissolution -- web-shaped boards.
|
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 07 Jan 2007 : 03:37:09
For some reason I am thinking that the board was circular or web shaped, but I can't remember the exact reference. Ryld also mentions that while he loved playing Sava, and it was greatly strategy based, that there was a randomized element to it that most drow loved, though the random chance aspect of it was the thing that he liked the least of the entire game. |
|
|
