| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| WalkerNinja |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 21:42:47
I think that we are all pretty much in agreeance that the frequency with which RSE's are occuring is dis-satisfyingly high.
My complaint is not so much the frequency, but the concentration of RSE's in three areas: Cormyr, Shadowdale, and Waterdeep (and arguably the Silver Marches).
The amount AND frequency of RSE's that have occurred in these areas is simply stunning. Heck, 2/3's of the ToT trilogy happened in Shadowdale and Waterdeep. Waterdeep had to fight the Phaerimm. Shadowdale had to fight off a Zhent invasion AND a demon elf invasion. The Silver Marches just had to deal with an Orcish Alexander the Great. Need I recount all the drama that Cormyr has been through lately?
I can only imagine that authors are tempted to center RSE's in these areas because these are the areas with the most established continuities (and thus the biggest following). Now we're on the brink of a new RSE which at minimum hits Cormyr AND the Shadowdale, and I would be unsurprised if the final installment was in Waterdeep or Silverymoon.
From the continental perspective these places are still underdeveloped when compared to the ancient civilizations of the south. Why can't we have an RSE for the Shaar, or Halruaa. Amn is the hub of trade and intrigue, why don't we get some big intriguing shattering stories there.
At least then these places would get some much needed print. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| boards |
Posted - 14 Dec 2006 : 01:57:14
On the elven numbers every elf receives martial training in their youth (according to Races of Fearun pg 27) which means that they are more used to the way their bodies move. You cant train for 50-80 years (even if sporadically) without learning decent skills.
I dont think I have ever seen numbers who died during Nimesins invasion but if more that 10,000-15,000 I would be surprised. I have no idea on numbers during the war with the phearims, and during the Feyri crusade at least half were volunteers part of no organisation, many were wood elves and moon elves, so probably capable of living off the land. I dont think Evereska supplied to many warriors during these fights. Also according Ed elves require far less food than humans so supplies are less of a problem.
As for the human realms, history has given us plenty of examples were societies were ravaged by wars several times in quick succession, while still raising armies to fight. Generally speaking RW historical wars lasted for long periods of time with extensive razing of crops yet they still survived. Divine magic can make up those losses far easier than RW countries can so I dont really feel that is such a problem. A much larger percentage of the population during earlier ages were trained in "War arts" than today and I imagine that it would be the same in Fearun.
Now after saying all of that I would rather that WOTC would stop using RSE's, but I'm pretty sure that the various nations would be capable of surviving this. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 23:35:29
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
And those figures also assume that all the elves in Evermeet agreed with the Crusade and sent soldiers to the mainland--they didn't. Seiveril's plan wasn't particularly popular.
That's a good point.
I don't think we'll ever be able to completely ascertain just how many elves were willing to participate in the crusade. Given rough 3e elven population numbers, and the knowledge that many elves had no desire to follow on the plan, as Rino mentions, a true lack of elven numbers sent from Evermeet to support the army in Faerun suggests a much smaller force on the mainland than many would, at least initially, believe.
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| WalkerNinja |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 23:25:58
maybe they're Tolkien elves, and do everything way better than everyone else because... they're... well, Elves. Didn't you see how many orcs Legolas took out?!?! He even stabbed one through the throat with an arrow.
Elves = Ninjas
They don't beat you with numbers, they beat you because they're cool. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 22:07:37
And those figures also assume that all the elves in Evermeet agreed with the Crusade and sent soldiers to the mainland--they didn't. Seiveril's plan wasn't particularly popular. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 15:55:42
quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
And let's not forget that, according to population figures, the Silver Marches have 200,000 elves. If we go again by that 10%, that could be up to 20,000 soldiers.
However, that same book says Evereska only has 20,000 elves. |
| Krafus |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 14:37:30
On RSEs I will say that yes, I also think they happen too quickly one after the other to give them the epic, lasting impact they should have. And I also wish they could happen in parts of the world that haven't seen much print yet, like the Old Empires and the Lands of Intrigue.
As for the elves, I don't believe the armies they've managed to field stretch the imagination too much. I've always thought that a substantial number of their population has been trained with arms or magic, so while their formal armies may be on par with a similarly-sized human realm, they've got sizable reserves to call upon if need be. If, say, 10% of Evermeet's population has received such training, that gives you a pool of some 160,000 possible recruits for an army. And let's not forget that, according to population figures, the Silver Marches have 200,000 elves. If we go again by that 10%, that could be up to 20,000 soldiers. |
| LucianBarasu |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 04:08:15
I am curently writing a book that is NOT a RSE that takes place around the shaar and chult regions. Push for me to get hired by WOTC , and I promise no RSEs from me, and I will only write about non well-trampled locales... lol :) |
| WalkerNinja |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 02:03:15
To add an illustration from a different medium...
Exactly how many times do we have to read about Jean Grey getting killed and then subsequently re-resurrected?
Lay off of Jean Gray, lay off of Cormyr, lay off of the elves, lay off of the Shadowdale. |
| Reefy |
Posted - 11 Dec 2006 : 01:06:54
I broadly agree with most of what has been said. Too many places taking too much of a hammering in a short period of time which is both unrealistic and loses the impact. On the flip side, I don't want to see region x get a RSE just because it hasn't had one for ages, it's nice that some places are stable. Cormyr in 2E was stable, but has suddenly been through the mill. It almost feels like that was done deliberately, and those places that were unstable are currently more settled. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 10 Dec 2006 : 22:36:29
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I think WOTC did a bit of a disservice to Richard Lee Byer's wrap up and Rich Baker's starting point by overlapping these events too much...
I agree, not just about the wrap-up but about RLB's whole trilogy. It wasn't long before the YoRD was already in the past. |
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 19:27:26
On RSE's I say that the focus on a few areas I have enjoyed b/c I like the particular areas.  Ya can't always write about the whole world and there is a limit to the resources that WotC has no doubt. On Kuje's remark of elven armies being made over and over in such a short time I would say the following.  It can be done without deepspawn but it does bleed a civilization dry and dangerously low. Plus the armies are actually small in size compared to other real world scenarios. My last comment I will say and hopefully it will be coherent enough because I lack the time to properly get into it, is that.... RSE's make me uncomfortable but always have me on the edge of my seat with excitement. Shadowbred being the latest example. I like 'em as long as they make sense.  Cheers all! |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 03:41:10
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
One more item, Kuje is very right about the cost of raising and fielding troops. It is not until later in the Middle Ages that Kings had standing armies; there was simply no way to support them. The whole feudal system was a means of being able to field an army when needed. Most often the length of service to the King's army was set so that crops could be planted and harvested... It would be intersting to know how many serfs and land it took to equip a knight and his small retinue for a campaign... I may have that info in my notes from a class I took on the medieval knight... Now, I know that the FR can not be compared to our own Middle Ages, but the concept still has truth to it... the point being that losing soldiers constantly is very costly. Enough from me...
The answer to number of commoners required has no set answer it varied for many reasons, the best was 3 to 1 according to the Doomsday record, but that was also a fairly peaceful time. I also infer that the pages, squires and perhaps the Kninghts did some of their own support.
The general rule was until prehaps 1925 C.E that about 90 percent of population was rural based (farming or support of farming) in most nations. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 09 Dec 2006 : 03:25:10
Taken individually, I have had very few problems with most of the RSE that have come across in Realms fiction and in game products, but I will qualify this by saying that the individual events don't bother me, and I quite enjoy many of them, but the problem with them is indeed the concentration on certain areas and the concentration in the timeline.
I actually don't have a big problem with the logistics of standing armies or population figures. The Realms have a lot of inhabitants, and I think that wizards and clerics dramatically shift what is possible when it comes to moving and supporting armies. People tend to think of the big things that wizards and clerics can do in battle, but being able to provide food and water, clean clothes, good weather, and reliable messages are very important as well.
Douglas Niles said something very interesting when he was asked why his two Moonshaes trilogies were set so far apart. He said that he had to set them that far apart so that the heroes could feel like heroes and enjoy their victories, and the readers knew that some time passed where what the heroes did had a positive impact on where they lived.
How does that apply here? I actually don't doubt that a nation like Cormyr might be able to take two RSEs in a row, or three, or four, but how many years in a row can something major happen and still feel impactful? When you don't pace major events for effect, you don't have time to look at the heroes and say, "wow, look at the effort they made, and look at the sacrifices . . . that was impressive," or to look at the region and say, "this place is a great kingdom, and its a good thing that the heroes preserved this wonderful place." You start to say, "wow, bad stuff happens there a lot," and then move on. To me its less about suspension of disbelief as it is about getting a chance to savor victory and have a happy ending that lasts more than a few months.
(For another take on this sort of thing, former Realms author James Lowder has an essay in the book Unauthorized X-Men, edited by Len Wein, that talks about how too many major events, crossovers, and deaths in the X-Men books have made it harder and harder for stories to feel like they have any emotional impact. Its a very interesting essay, and a lot of it resonates for any kind of shared world setting, not just comics)
I know WOTC wants to drive sales with big events, and thus the RSE. I actually won't fight this trend so much as hope that it get spread out. As many scribes and the lovely THO have said, the Realms are a big sandbox . . . use the whole thing! Have this year's RSE set in Halruaa, then make the next one in Calimshan, then the Moonshaes, Impiltur, etc. You don't have to ignore Cormyr, Waterdeep, or the Dalelands, but by the time you work your way back to them, you have five or six years of relative peace. Not a lot, but enough to feel like the victory from the last "RSE" meant something, and life can be good for a while.
I loved both the Year of Rogue Dragons, and the Last Mythal books, but it was hard to work up the enthusiasm for both series when they were released concurrently, and one event was barely over "in setting" when the next starts up. I think WOTC did a bit of a disservice to Richard Lee Byer's wrap up and Rich Baker's starting point by overlapping these events too much, but I personally liked both of them very much individually.
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| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 19:13:16
Kuje, I am also one of the people who agrees with your first post. But I'm sure many people here already know that. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 18:11:00
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
Kuje, was it in City of Splendors that the statues that Piergeiron controls were used to attack the city? That is the reference I made above (not well worded, granted)to Elaine and Ed's book... You are very right it was a good book and a fun read!
You're right, it was. My fault. I was still waking up when I scrolled through this thread. :) |
| Kuje |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 18:09:27
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
My issue has been, and continues to be, how much devastation can a people endure? Look at Waterdeep. As you read the new sourcebook it states, (I am paraphrasing) that the situation in Waterdeep, while stable, is growing more desperate. They have endured Myrkul's Legion, Iakhovas's Sea attack, fielded an army to fight the Phaerimm and Shades, are currently suffering through a drought that has affected the food supply, and most recently, seen their cities protecting statues animated and cause destruction. Waterdeep is a huge city with incredible resources, but truly how many soldiers can they field and afford to lose? Don't get me wrong, I love the setting, but the number of RSE's is getting a bit ridiculous... I much prefer novels that affect only a small area (preferably someplace not dealt with in current lore)such as Mistress of Night, Lady of Pain, Bladesinger etc. Just my thoughts, I will stop ranting now...
You're basically saying the same things I am. :) I agree, Waterdeep has also been kicked around repeatedly in the last few years. You forgot to add Ed and Elaine's events from the Waterdeep novel to your list also. :)
No, I'm not saying that their book was a mistake, it was a great book, but it's just another event in a long line of events that have been happening to many places in FR.
Well one of the statues 'did' start smashing things up in CoS. What else happened? A few collapsed buildings (not the end of the world in such a major city compared to their other problems), and Khelben gone (which I don't think any of the commoners will realise for a long time, if ever).
Am I missing something big that wasn't mentioned?
I wasn't saying that it was a big event, but mostly I meant that it'll effect the moral of the people of the city in that it's just another long line of things that have happened to Waterdeep, it's citizens, etc. |
| ShadowJack |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 17:33:07
One more item, Kuje is very right about the cost of raising and fielding troops. It is not until later in the Middle Ages that Kings had standing armies; there was simply no way to support them. The whole feudal system was a means of being able to field an army when needed. Most often the length of service to the King's army was set so that crops could be planted and harvested... It would be intersting to know how many serfs and land it took to equip a knight and his small retinue for a campaign... I may have that info in my notes from a class I took on the medieval knight... Now, I know that the FR can not be compared to our own Middle Ages, but the concept still has truth to it... the point being that losing soldiers constantly is very costly. Enough from me... |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 17:25:55
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
My issue has been, and continues to be, how much devastation can a people endure? Look at Waterdeep. As you read the new sourcebook it states, (I am paraphrasing) that the situation in Waterdeep, while stable, is growing more desperate. They have endured Myrkul's Legion, Iakhovas's Sea attack, fielded an army to fight the Phaerimm and Shades, are currently suffering through a drought that has affected the food supply, and most recently, seen their cities protecting statues animated and cause destruction. Waterdeep is a huge city with incredible resources, but truly how many soldiers can they field and afford to lose? Don't get me wrong, I love the setting, but the number of RSE's is getting a bit ridiculous... I much prefer novels that affect only a small area (preferably someplace not dealt with in current lore)such as Mistress of Night, Lady of Pain, Bladesinger etc. Just my thoughts, I will stop ranting now...
You're basically saying the same things I am. :) I agree, Waterdeep has also been kicked around repeatedly in the last few years. You forgot to add Ed and Elaine's events from the Waterdeep novel to your list also. :)
No, I'm not saying that their book was a mistake, it was a great book, but it's just another event in a long line of events that have been happening to many places in FR.
Well one of the statues 'did' start smashing things up in CoS. What else happened? A few collapsed buildings (not the end of the world in such a major city compared to their other problems), and Khelben gone (which I don't think any of the commoners will realise for a long time, if ever).
Am I missing something big that wasn't mentioned? |
| ShadowJack |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 17:22:43
Sages,
First let me say, with all respect to The Hooded One, I am not wanting to bash WotC, or any Realms author, I am very grateful for what they do. Their work provides me many hours of entertainment. It is through the efforts of these people that I can let my imagination run rampant. If I came across too negative I apologize and certainly do not want to offend any author. I love Candlekeep because the authors frequent the forums and provide great insight. If they left the site it would be a great loss. I am frustrated with the number of RSE's in main areas of Faerun as it makes no sense. Even with that, however, I have read 95% of the books and enjoyed them all. So, once again, to all involved, I pray, forgive me my rant! Thank you THO for providing that insight. Kuje, was it in City of Splendors that the statues that Piergeiron controls were used to attack the city? That is the reference I made above (not well worded, granted)to Elaine and Ed's book... You are very right it was a good book and a fun read! |
| Kuje |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 16:44:32
quote:
Originally posted by ShadowJack
My issue has been, and continues to be, how much devastation can a people endure? Look at Waterdeep. As you read the new sourcebook it states, (I am paraphrasing) that the situation in Waterdeep, while stable, is growing more desperate. They have endured Myrkul's Legion, Iakhovas's Sea attack, fielded an army to fight the Phaerimm and Shades, are currently suffering through a drought that has affected the food supply, and most recently, seen their cities protecting statues animated and cause destruction. Waterdeep is a huge city with incredible resources, but truly how many soldiers can they field and afford to lose? Don't get me wrong, I love the setting, but the number of RSE's is getting a bit ridiculous... I much prefer novels that affect only a small area (preferably someplace not dealt with in current lore)such as Mistress of Night, Lady of Pain, Bladesinger etc. Just my thoughts, I will stop ranting now...
You're basically saying the same things I am. :) I agree, Waterdeep has also been kicked around repeatedly in the last few years. You forgot to add Ed and Elaine's events from the Waterdeep novel to your list also. :)
No, I'm not saying that their book was a mistake, it was a great book, but it's just another event in a long line of events that have been happening to many places in FR. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 16:35:53
quote:
Originally posted by Besshalar
Yes but what percentage of them are warriors and mages the elves need their commoners as well and an army of somesort to safeguard the island itself...
As well as bringing in supplies, wealth to pay for these armies, etc. Armies don't exist in a vacuum, you have to pay for supplies or bring supplies. Fielding armies also cost wealth. Etc. So it's just not about the troops either. Read any reports about medieval armies and ya'll be surprised how much it takes to field a army.
And as you said, yes Evermeet has 1.6mill but how many of those 1.6 mill are soldiers? |
| Besshalar |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 16:22:27
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded One
Please remember that the authors can't freely choose where to set their books; WotC's Books Department approves everything. The aforementioned Mark S is, of course, an editor in said Books Department. So it's not that he's "doing the right thing" whereas other writers are "doing the wrong thing."
Ed has for years decried the concentration on the best-covered areas (which means they get RSE'd again and again, just because they get used again and again) at the expense of "covering the entire map." Which caused certain WotC staffers to take scissors to the map in the move to 3E (surely one of the most ridiculous "design decisions" of all time). 
love to all,
THO
I apologise if it seemed like bashing on the other authors I never intended it that way . Ofcourse I realise the extent of control that Wotc has on the novels . |
| The Hooded One |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 16:03:51
Please remember that the authors can't freely choose where to set their books; WotC's Books Department approves everything. The aforementioned Mark S is, of course, an editor in said Books Department. So it's not that he's "doing the right thing" whereas other writers are "doing the wrong thing."
Ed has for years decried the concentration on the best-covered areas (which means they get RSE'd again and again, just because they get used again and again) at the expense of "covering the entire map." Which caused certain WotC staffers to take scissors to the map in the move to 3E (surely one of the most ridiculous "design decisions" of all time).
love to all,
THO |
| Besshalar |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 12:56:09
Yes but what percentage of them are warriors and mages the elves need their commoners as well and an army of somesort to safeguard the island itself... |
| ShadowJack |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 12:55:54
My issue has been, and continues to be, how much devastation can a people endure? Look at Waterdeep. As you read the new sourcebook it states, (I am paraphrasing) that the situation in Waterdeep, while stable, is growing more desperate. They have endured Myrkul's Legion, Iakhovas's Sea attack, fielded an army to fight the Phaerimm and Shades, are currently suffering through a drought that has affected the food supply, and most recently, seen their cities protecting statues animated and cause destruction. Waterdeep is a huge city with incredible resources, but truly how many soldiers can they field and afford to lose? Don't get me wrong, I love the setting, but the number of RSE's is getting a bit ridiculous... I much prefer novels that affect only a small area (preferably someplace not dealt with in current lore)such as Mistress of Night, Lady of Pain, Bladesinger etc. Just my thoughts, I will stop ranting now... |
| Marc |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 12:21:09
I disagree with this, what do you think how many tel'quess died in the attack, Evermeet's population is 1,6 mil, Seiveril's army was smaller than 0.5 percent of that |
| Besshalar |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 10:32:02
Over time say 200 years or so the elves might be able to rejuvenate their population somewhat. Atleast in the novel Sorcerer there was an implication that elven woman could directly affect their fertility. So it might be that the slow birth rate has actually been a conscious choice on the part of the elves. |
| Zimme |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 10:21:35
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
My issue, and I've said this to a few people, privately, is this:
1) 1371, the elves are attacked on Evermeet. Elves died. (Fine, seems reasonable).
2) 1371 the North is attacked by Obould. (Fine, seems reasonable).
2) 1372 rolls around and Evereska is attacked. More elves die. Evermeet sends a army and more elves of Evermeet die. (I'm still not sure how they replaced/formed enough troops for this). At the same time, the events of Obould are probably still taking place and so the armies of the North are busy.
3) 1373 the rage happens. Course, I haven't read Dragons of Faerun yet but I figured some more places in the North have had to be attacked with the amount of dragons in the North.
4) 1374 the elves form a THIRD army with what is left of Evermeet's armies to defend Evereska. More elves died. However, there are enough elves left alive, even though the elves have fielded three armies in three years, to retake Myth Drannor. Also, the North fields another army to help defend the elves of the High Forest.
To me, either the elves and the armies of the North are cloning people to keep up with these armies, or they are feeding people to deepspawn. It's not realistically possible that the elves could form three armies in three years with the amount of elves that have been dying. Nor could the armies of the North continue to create armies.
This is my opinion and I'm sure someone will disagree with me.
Certainly not I either, you got a fine point, wondered about those same things myself. After what I know of Evermeet and Evereska, their population is not that great to support such armies, either in warriors, logistics or supplies. |
| maransreth |
Posted - 08 Dec 2006 : 10:13:06
After reading Final Gate and how it ends, I have also wondered what the Seldarine will do to increase the elven population to hold Evermeet, Evereska and Myth Drannor. Will they do what the dwarven gods did - have more twins born? Will risen elfkin (the year) mean more elves appear from somewhere else? It is staggering to think that the elves can hold Myth Drannor and the other areas with the current population that has been in decline for decades, if not centuries. |
| Besshalar |
Posted - 07 Dec 2006 : 22:53:50
But not I :) |
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