| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 17 Apr 2003 : 22:51:56
My friends and I were bored and we decided to pit some of our characters up against Drizzt Do'Urden. Now Drizzt Do'Urden is a legend in the realms as we know, but look at his statistics compared to Storm, Alustriel, and some of the others. He just seems to be a little weak statistically for his legendary status. The characters in my current campaign are quite high level, 15-22. Pretty much every fighter character of the party was able to wipe the floor with Drizzt. I was running Drizzt, and I am terribly devious with sneaky ploys. Still the fighter types (i.e. fighter, Ranger, Paladin, Dark elf Rogue/fighter) were ALL able to use Drizzt as a mop. I was vastly disappointed. I use the epic rules for characters of levels 20 and above. Some of those feats like Devastating Critical seem like they are for characters of Drizzt's Status, yet he cannot get them because he is only level 16.
Do you folks think Drizzt's stats are accurate for the character, or would you rather see a more EPIC level Drizzt?
Just wondering.
The 3e stats are found on pg 177, of the FR campaign guide.
Drizzt is a Ftr10/Bbn1/Rgr5------ BOLLOCKS!!!!
At minimum he should have level 10 in both fighter and ranger. We tested him against an Adult White Dragon, and He became a TV dinner!!!!
What about icingdeath????? OK that was a stalagtite, but still. I was Vastly Disappointed
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| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Kuje |
Posted - 03 Oct 2006 : 20:25:48
Can we tone down the attacks here or this thread is going to be edited or closed. |
| Lord Teclis |
Posted - 03 Oct 2006 : 20:24:20
Very good point. I suppose that I feel Drizzt shouldnt be defeated however... It just proves the fact that He should be what ever level the DM decides he should be.
Thank you for your input Sean and you do put a different look on it.
Cheers mate |
| seankreynolds |
Posted - 03 Oct 2006 : 20:18:37
If you think he should be epic, make him epic, but be aware it's just going to make your Ftr20 PC feel less important when he realizes he STILL can't defeat Drizzt.
If I'm playing in a game, I don't want to be competing for attention with the "DM's Pet" NPCs.
When I fight, I want nearby NPCs to say, "Wow, that guy is awesome, I bet he could defeat Drizzt!" I DON'T want them to say, "Eh, he's good, but he's no Drizzt." Whether or not I CAN defeat Drizzt is irrelevant, I want people to acknowledge that I'm badass, whether I'm 5th, 10th, 15th, or 20th level. Especially as 99.99% of the people who know OF Drizzt have never seen him fight and have no way of realistically comparing skill. If everyone you meet is always comparing you to some epic NPC and you come up short, that's not fun.
Furthermore, Drizzt's stats are irrelevant unless the PCs are actually going to fight him. If your PCs for some reason need to defeat him and they're 10th level, it should be a hard-won battle, but doable. Likewise if they're 15th, 20th, or 60th-level. Yes, I said 60th-level ... everyone clamoring for an EPIC Drizzt is ignoring that there are some FR games out there where the PCs are 60th level and they think Drizzt is a pansy. Should Drizzt's level in the FRCS then be 70? Because there are 100th-level PCs out there too. It never ends.
Let Drizzt's official level be the level he is in the FRCS. He doesn't need to be tougher than that in 99% of the campaigns out there. And for those campaigns where he does, the DM can change him.
Also remember that if you bump Drizzt's level, you have to bump Artemis' level too because they're equally matched. Now think about THAT ... the "best" drow fighter in the world, with decades of training and experience, is an equal match to a HUMAN who isn't yet to middle age, and who has spent much of his time training in stealth rather than pure combat. How epic and uber can Drizzt be if he's "only" the match for a human not yet age 40 who hasn't really specialized in swordfighting? |
| Lord Teclis |
Posted - 03 Oct 2006 : 20:14:40
On reflection, we keep mentioning Drizzt. But, Artemis is meant to be the most dangerous Assassin in the realms (NOT with Stats like that). Maybe it is time that both characters get a 3.5ed update.
Entreri should have IMHO a few levels lower in FTr, higher in Assassin and Rogue.
Drizzt: Ftr12/Rgr10/Rog2 (as stated elsewere) CR25ish
Entreri: Ftr8/Rog5/Ass10: CR23
Any opinions..... |
| Lord Teclis |
Posted - 03 Oct 2006 : 20:01:03
I bow down to your knowledge Sean. You are correct, FR dosnt need another EPIC NPC. I don't even really like Drizzt. BUT..... Yes he is a MAIN (and one of the most popular) characters but if it is any character that should be an EPIC fighter it should be him.
He was supposed to be the greatest fighter in MENZO and (I KNOW THAT IT IS A NOVEL) he demonstrated skill with the weapons that were nearly unsapassed. HE should be epic. |
| seankreynolds |
Posted - 03 Oct 2006 : 19:45:17
Yes, funny how the MAIN CHARACTER of a NOVEL never loses a battle ... because losing usually means you die, and that means the story ends.
And because FR needs yet another EPIC UBER NPC to make the PCs feel small. |
| Lord Teclis |
Posted - 03 Oct 2006 : 19:08:17
I would agree that a Lvl16 fighter could defeat a very large number of orcs. BUT, he was a 16th Ranger (18th Fighter) ages ago before quite a few of his recent adventures. He defeats a Balor, Zak, Entreri (more than once), several powerful drow etc. He should not be a CR18 character. He should be low epic IMHO. |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 03 Oct 2006 : 01:42:59
Drizzt's power as a hero has usually been based against orcs rather than other high level characters (bar Entreri and maybe Jarlaxle). Of course a lvl 16 character will decimate hundreds of orcs with ease and earn a heroic status |
| seankreynolds |
Posted - 02 Oct 2006 : 22:44:15
"Character X can beat up Character Y" has never been an accurate measure of a PC's power in 3E. Depending on the circumstances, a fighter can usually beat a wizard of the same level ... does that mean that wizards are weak compared to a fighter? No, because under different circs a wiz can usually beat a ftr.
Also, IIRC Drizzt is built with NPC gear rather than PC gear, which makes a HUGE difference in power level. So if you're throwing same-level PCs at him, of course he's going to lose. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 18:32:40
quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
I wonder if Drizzt has Spell resistance as per most Drow. I can't recall if this ability was ever used in the novels. It's been a while and I need to reread the books. What a character that Drizzt!
Funny fact: The Halflings Gem is the first book I ever read on my own for recreation. I was in 7th grade and the adventure keeps going 12 years later. Thanks Mr Salvatore!
While its far from official, I tried to write up some thoughts about how to bridge the gap between previous editions and how drow worked (such as loosing their abilities on the surface) and the current edition in this thread:
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6839&SearchTerms=Drow
While it may not be useful for everyone, and some people may not like flaws, for example, it was something I made up just to balance out how it would work in my own mind. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 15:26:37
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Actually, some have - as the posts of Elrond and Mournblade might indicate.
ahhh 
sorry to Elrond and Mournblade...I skimmed over this thread when I posted it...without my first cup of java at work 
appologies again! |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 15:20:00
Actually, some have - as the posts of Elrond and Mournblade might indicate. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 14:08:52
Have any of you seen the original write up of Drizzt in the 2E Menzoberranzan box set? I remember he was an 18th-20th fighter that was converted to ranger and that he had an "instant death" blow on a natural 20... |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 12:46:17
However, aside from the fact that Drizzt is a novel Character, the creation of his stats was highly influenced by trying to much him as close as possible to Artemis Entreri (as is stated in FRCS). Maybe that lead to his somewhat poor stats as well. Maybe one of the designers of this book wants to enlighten us with how his stats cam about.
Considering the novels, Drizzt seems so much more capable in fighting than Bruenor. Yet if you let the two fight against each other Bruenor should kick the elf's ebony behind... being pure fighter Lvl 18 and all. But hey - that's how it should be, Dwarf vs. (Dark)Elf, right? |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 26 Sep 2006 : 12:43:40
Spoiler for the hunter's blade trilogy -
Considering that Drizzt fought Obould Many-Arrow, (Fighter/Barbarian of CL 18 IIRC) a Chosen of Gruumsh, and prevailed, he should be higher level indeed.
I had a 14th-Lvl fighter compete against him (outside of the game and without his knowing) to test Drizzt formidable fighting skills. Drizzt won but not that obvious as I would have thought and liked. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 23 Sep 2006 : 17:53:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wandering_mage
I wonder if Drizzt has Spell resistance as per most Drow. I can't recall if this ability was ever used in the novels. It's been a while and I need to reread the books. What a character that Drizzt!
Funny fact: The Halflings Gem is the first book I ever read on my own for recreation. I was in 7th grade and the adventure keeps going 12 years later. Thanks Mr Salvatore!
Back in 1st and 2nd Edition, Drow lost their Magic Resistance when they went Rogue to live on the surface. And for the most part those are the "rules" that RAS uses still. |
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 23 Sep 2006 : 13:25:42
I wonder if Drizzt has Spell resistance as per most Drow. I can't recall if this ability was ever used in the novels. It's been a while and I need to reread the books. What a character that Drizzt!
Funny fact: The Halflings Gem is the first book I ever read on my own for recreation. I was in 7th grade and the adventure keeps going 12 years later. Thanks Mr Salvatore! |
| Lord Teclis |
Posted - 23 Sep 2006 : 11:11:31
I agree, that Drizzt stats and level should be higher and I am not a fan of his. Drizzt is supposed to be a famous central character of the realms (I know that it dosnt mean a high level). But in several instances it clearly states in the novel on several occassions that onlookers have never seen anyone fighter like it. Also what has def not been taken into account are his proper 2nd ed stats and level : 16th Level Ranger (AND, FORMERLY 18th Level Drow Figther). Come on guys he beat Zak for crisis sakes who is one of the highest level pure fighter types ever in the realms. Again it STATED that he was better than Zak.
If you take his 2nd Ed stats he would be roughly 16+ 18( divided by 2+9) that would put him up in the mid 20's which is I believe more accurate. I think 25th is alittle to high but it is nearer the market. I would also give him a special abitity like a much greater crit range say 14/15+, this would take into account his devestating ability in the 2nd ed.
This guy is supposed be the greatest fighter (If he beat Zak, and Zak was the best) in a City full of very powerful fighters (At least half a dozen or more greater than 20th+).
I would suggest: Ftr12/Rgr10/Bar2: Str14, Dex23, Con14,Int17 ,Wis17 ,Cha15.
Any opinions. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 19 Apr 2003 : 17:02:47
Now Epic characters can get the Devastating Critical which is much like Drizzt's old ability. Unfortunately Drizzt could never get this because you need a STR of 25. Drizzt however should be able to match higher level fighters without a special rule. This was my problem with 2nd edition. They made a new rule for EVERYTHING, many of which often conflicted. That's why 3e was such a breath of fresh air, it cleaned everything up. I WAS adamant against it, but once I read the rules I realized they finally had a system that solved lots of problems.
Drizzt needs to be able to tank people without the use of special rules, which is why in 2e I never used that rule, I thought it was pretty weak. But in 2e his level was high enough to make him formidable.
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| Yasraena |
Posted - 19 Apr 2003 : 07:44:17
Elrond's right.
IIRC, he also had a special ability that allowed him to kill an opponent outright with a single blow. Something like if he rolled a certain number above his base Thac0 (I think it was 5 or 6) on any attack with his scimitars, his opponent was killed. As a 20th level fighter, that almost ensures he can kill almost anything with a single blow.
I beleieve this ability was the answer to why he was such a bad-ass in the novels, too. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 19 Apr 2003 : 06:51:46
I am increasing the stats of Drizzt in my campaign, I was just trying to get informations on what other people thought |
| Targon Moonrise |
Posted - 19 Apr 2003 : 05:30:01
Yea. DM is the "Lord Ao" in an adventure they are in charge of. |
| Shades |
Posted - 19 Apr 2003 : 04:31:34
Why not just increase Drizzt's stats in your campaign (dm's word is law). |
| Elrond Half Elven |
Posted - 18 Apr 2003 : 22:47:06
Perhaps its worth noting that in 2nd edition Drizzt was a lv 20 fighter who turned ranger. He was unbeatable. No look at his 3E stats he is not a good character. Drizzt has defeated many a powerul foe. I believe that his level should be higher. But then hey thats just my opinion.
Hanx
Elrond |
| branmakmuffin |
Posted - 18 Apr 2003 : 18:34:15
poilbrun:
quote:
On this point, I totally disagree with you. I think it is an excellent idea to show how multiclassing works when it is used to give flavor to a character.
We can only agree to disagree, otherwise we could spend hours arguing about what's wrong with what. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 18 Apr 2003 : 18:14:26
Part of the reason I ask, is one of the characters I have Torandar Giants bane is Hawk of the Lady of Mielikki along with Drizzt. But there is no way I can see Drizzt having more favour because Torandar is in all respects a better fighter (by skill) and a much better ranger (By about 15 levels). Furthermore he does alot to protect the fronteir settlements and woodlands of the north. Basically for the smaller settlements like Bargewright Inn, and Yartar, Torandar's word is taken as law, often overriding the ruler in times of war. I always imagined Drizzt on par with this character, but the battle lasted LESS than 5 rounds, and TOrandar was still over half hit points. (NO they did not fight IN GAME, experiment only, and I was running Drizzt) That means Drizzt would be slashed apart in 30 seconds, and torandar would STILL have enough to cream Bruenor, or Wulfgar. I realize the stats are watered down, and at this time my characters of the campaign are definite movers and shakers on par with the high level NPC's. BUT the high level mage is a MATCH for Khlebun, and still loses to Elminster. IT seems that the mages are always of appropriate levels but the fighters never are. Torandar can easily beat Drizzt teamed up with one of his companions unless bad die rolls occur. ( I am not bragging). I just wonder why there are no fighters in the realms on par with the high level mages.
Look at Princess Alusair 3e stats: (Mind you she is also 35 and adventured ALOT) Ftr7/Rng1/Purple Dragon Knight2 Not a low level character, and probably a powerful mid range character. She has adventured alot on the stonelands and cleared a large portion of it out, yet she is only mid level?
Look at STORM Rog1/Ftr4/Sor12/Brd8/Hrp3 This is more like it. Though I would like to see her wit hMORE bard level than sorcerer level. Still she is a mover. |
| lowtech |
Posted - 18 Apr 2003 : 17:44:49
[quote
On this point, I totally disagree with you. I think it is an excellent idea to show how multiclassing works when it is used to give flavor to a character.
As for the stats of Drizzt, I like them as they are. As I see it, Drizzt is a powerful character, but he does not compare to characters like Elminster, the Seven Sisters, or the BBG (read big bad guys) of the Realms : Manshoon, Chembryl, Larloch, Halaster, ...
[/quote]
I partially agree with you, but I think his level is still too low for his skills. His fighter level should be much higher. Obviously, a powerful mage could easily dispatch him, provided there was a good distance between them! |
| poilbrun |
Posted - 18 Apr 2003 : 14:27:14
quote:
Originally posted by branmakmuffin
What I think is cheap is his one level of barbarian to account for his "rages". That's like Artemis Entreri's one level of ranger.
In 2e, Drizzt was all ranger, I believe.
Cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap, cheap.
Cheap.
On this point, I totally disagree with you. I think it is an excellent idea to show how multiclassing works when it is used to give flavor to a character.
As for the stats of Drizzt, I like them as they are. As I see it, Drizzt is a powerful character, but he does not compare to characters like Elminster, the Seven Sisters, or the BBG (read big bad guys) of the Realms : Manshoon, Chembryl, Larloch, Halaster, ... |
| Aust Grimshadow |
Posted - 18 Apr 2003 : 14:01:47
Try putting Wulfgar and Drizzt up against an adult white dragon and the results might be more favorable. But I do agree with you that his 3e stats do seem a little weak for his status. Its too bad there is no Luck ability. heh. |
| zemd |
Posted - 18 Apr 2003 : 08:07:22
Yes he was lvl16 ranger.
But i prefer to think of Drizzt as a novel character. And don't forget that he was create before the epic level handbook was released |
