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 Will Eilistraee's worship increase? **Spoilers**

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T O P I C    R E V I E W
ShadowJack Posted - 18 Nov 2006 : 16:13:45
Sages,
After hearing so many threads discussing Demihuman Deities and Cloak and Dagger, I finally purchased and downloaded them from Paizo. DD brought up an interesting question.
On page 16 of Demihuman Deities it says that the Dark Maiden's worship was at its height during the days of Miyeritaar. Of course the Dark Disaster destroyed the elven realm of Miyeritaar. (the High Moor) I do not know how many original inhabitants of Miyeritaar came back with the refounding of Rhymanthiin, but, will the worship, and the power of Eilistraee grow stronger? Just some idle musings...
30   L A T E S T    R E P L I E S    (Newest First)
Kentinal Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 02:46:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

CoV I believe equals _City of Villains_ , it was a while ago that I posted that referenence



Champions of Valor.



Hey I only missed by one word. *wink*
Wooly Rupert Posted - 12 Jan 2011 : 00:48:14
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

CoV I believe equals _City of Villains_ , it was a while ago that I posted that referenence



Champions of Valor.
Kentinal Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 23:48:49
CoV I believe equals _City of Villains_ , it was a while ago that I posted that referenence
Fellfire Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 23:29:32
Originally posted by Kentinal

The 10 percent of all Drow clearly would not be the same in every city, it is indeed unlikely 1,000 Eilistraee Drow live in Menzoberranzan. CoV however has Darksong Knights operating in that city and other Lolth dominated cities. Not sure which print date you are refering to that you claim makes absolutely no mention of Eilistraee Drow in Menzoberranzan.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is CoV? I can't find Darksong Knights here...http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/lists/prc
Zireael Posted - 11 Jan 2011 : 18:42:31
quote:
Originally posted by Rory

quote:
Originally posted by Sian


thats a protential 'eww'



Hey big boy Elminster had to do it. Sorta.

Just to add my .002. Back in my Com 64 days I played two gold box games where Eilistraee had a secret society in a major Drow city. They were able to cloak themselves with magic jewelry. They posed as simple commoners. An Eilistraee house can pose as simple fast food merchants (rothe burgers), dry cleaners, surface slave traders where they buy slaves in the underdark then convert and or free them at the surface etc etc.



What games precisely?
Rory Posted - 22 Apr 2007 : 02:07:02
quote:
Originally posted by Sian


thats a protential 'eww'



Hey big boy Elminster had to do it. Sorta.

Just to add my .002. Back in my Com 64 days I played two gold box games where Eilistraee had a secret society in a major Drow city. They were able to cloak themselves with magic jewelry. They posed as simple commoners. An Eilistraee house can pose as simple fast food merchants (rothe burgers), dry cleaners, surface slave traders where they buy slaves in the underdark then convert and or free them at the surface etc etc.
Kentinal Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 00:02:16
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir

quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
This is the Chanedance, where males become female in gender to better understand and relate to how it feels to be female. There appears to be much flexablity in what lessons a male in female might be expected to encounter. Subject interactions that females encouter, be it dealing with an abusive male, to cooking or perhaps tending young or other normal female life experiences.




Okay, but considering that females are usually the dominant gender among drow then wouldn't most males already appreciate what it's like to be taking orders from someone else? And I think that 'dealing with an abusive mate' is more of a problem for male drow (among Lolthites, anyway) than the other way around.


In part the test of gender change might be if males (changed) try to degrard males? It clearly is a difference in between being female and being male as well. You should also recall that the Eilistraee Drow more often deal with other races on the surface and as well considers most races as aceptible in serving the Dark Maiden as equauls (there still is a bit of gender bias that I believe should not exist - however this is my opinion.). Clerics of Eilistraee do not order males about like Clerics of Lolth do. Here there is a clear difference. What canon we have we do have is that the Clergy sets the policy for the temple (the Clergy, until recently totaly female) though allowing male advise and comment for making policy decsions able to speak freely. In Lolth rulership a male could be killed for saying a word, even if the best advice, unless a female gave them permission to speak. Even if the females gave permission for a male to speak they could very likely kill the male for saying something tht displeases any one of the females. Lolth gives females the right to kill males for any reason or no reason at all. Thus proving females are greater then males.
Eilistraee does lean toward female greater then male, but clearly does not treat males as slaves or breeding stock. Becoming a Lolth female provides a free range to extract revenge, becoming an Elistraee female allows one to understand how the other has lived, with yes some greater degree of power.
quote:


And hmm, I wonder if any of the other drow gods (like Vhaeraun) even transform their male clergy into females to infiltrate either Lolth or Eilistraee's priestesses?



Well Changedance was a new component to Lady Silverhair's dances, however other deities clearly have required a gender change. Vhaeraun clearly has no indication that I know of of a required gender change, with the transition to 3rd Edition Lolth either require all of her male clerics to become female or die (I have not seen an answer to this though).
Ardashir Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 23:35:13
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
This is the Chanedance, where males become female in gender to better understand and relate to how it feels to be female. There appears to be much flexablity in what lessons a male in female might be expected to encounter. Subject interactions that females encouter, be it dealing with an abusive male, to cooking or perhaps tending young or other normal female life experiences.




Okay, but considering that females are usually the dominant gender among drow then wouldn't most males already appreciate what it's like to be taking orders from someone else? And I think that 'dealing with an abusive mate' is more of a problem for male drow (among Lolthites, anyway) than the other way around.

And hmm, I wonder if any of the other drow gods (like Vhaeraun) even transform their male clergy into females to infiltrate either Lolth or Eilistraee's priestesses?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 23:00:10
quote:
Originally posted by Trizzt08

SPOILER




Well it might, Eilistraee has defeated and absorbed Vaheruns essence, now she has his followers as well. imagine all the male drow having to chose between physco chick or someone who won't kill them for having an opinion. she's probaly gonna be a Greater god now or at least Intermediate



Going by what happens in the Prelude of SotW, it's possible that the only reason Eilistraee "defeated" Vhaeraun is because he allowed that to happen as a part of a greater plan. Remember when Vhaeraun snuck his own piece onto the board?

So it's way too early to count him out of the equation.
Grandmaster Kane Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 20:55:29
quote:
Originally posted by Sian

Eliistraee's comunnities is as said a doubleedged sword ... they are 'cursed' with that they doesn't have a orginisted chruch which means they can't work together because they aren't aware of where other worshippers are... at the same time they are blessed in the way that Lolthian drows have to amass a massive army to cut down on the Elistraee comunities ... and since they live on the surface and no surface ruler (expect Dambrath) would like a Lolthian army in their backyard, they would (though prehaps not happily) join forces with Elistraee's worshippers if for nothing else get away with the Lolthian ... the Elistraee worshippers is the minor evil of those two


Even if lolth's forces suffer huge causikties her archne's will simply Zin Carla them and have another go
Sian Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 20:14:46
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal

quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir

BTW, while I'm here -- just what is this "Dance the Changedance" thing I've read about elsewhere concerning Eilistraee's clergy? I believe it was in Ed Greenwood's replies to questions about Lady Silverhair and her clergy?

Thanks for any help



In one of Ed's more recent replies concerning Eilistraee he reported that the Dark Maiden does have male clerics. There though is one rictual/dance they must partake in in order to gain respect and getter acceptance by the female Clergy. This is the Chanedance, where males become female in gender to better understand and relate to how it feels to be female. There appears to be much flexablity in what lessons a male in female might be expected to encounter. Subject interactions that females encouter, be it dealing with an abusive male, to cooking or perhaps tending young or other normal female life experiences.

It appears that the first Change dance is of a fairly short period, perhaps a few days. It also appears repeated Changedanes have longer duratons. This has not been set out in a rule set, however I suspect a real dedicated male will to gain respect be in female form for at least a month she that he can perform a Run in female form.
Actually I speculate a really dedicated male might take female form for the two plus years required to give birth.

Perhaps a male seeking position of High Priest, might take female form for 100s of years.



thats a protential 'eww'
Kentinal Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 19:15:34
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir

The "Changedance" sounds more like something the clergy of Sharess or Shillia might do, then Eilistraee.



Well what Ed says is canon, unless WotC decides on something different. As I said before rules are not detailed yet for duration or even much of the process. Perhaps the other deities might perfer a full time gender transfomation instead of being allowed to live in both gender forms. Who are we to dispute the deity policy? *wink*
Ardashir Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 18:34:39
The "Changedance" sounds more like something the clergy of Sharess or Shillia might do, then Eilistraee.
Kentinal Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 17:53:01
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir

BTW, while I'm here -- just what is this "Dance the Changedance" thing I've read about elsewhere concerning Eilistraee's clergy? I believe it was in Ed Greenwood's replies to questions about Lady Silverhair and her clergy?

Thanks for any help



In one of Ed's more recent replies concerning Eilistraee he reported that the Dark Maiden does have male clerics. There though is one rictual/dance they must partake in in order to gain respect and getter acceptance by the female Clergy. This is the Chanedance, where males become female in gender to better understand and relate to how it feels to be female. There appears to be much flexablity in what lessons a male in female might be expected to encounter. Subject interactions that females encouter, be it dealing with an abusive male, to cooking or perhaps tending young or other normal female life experiences.

It appears that the first Change dance is of a fairly short period, perhaps a few days. It also appears repeated Changedanes have longer duratons. This has not been set out in a rule set, however I suspect a real dedicated male will to gain respect be in female form for at least a month she that he can perform a Run in female form.
Actually I speculate a really dedicated male might take female form for the two plus years required to give birth.

Perhaps a male seeking position of High Priest, might take female form for 100s of years.
Ardashir Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 17:20:22
BTW, while I'm here -- just what is this "Dance the Changedance" thing I've read about elsewhere concerning Eilistraee's clergy? I believe it was in Ed Greenwood's replies to questions about Lady Silverhair and her clergy?

Thanks for any help
Zanan Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 16:34:40
quote:
Originally posted by nbnmare

If Vhaeraun truly is dead, I'm hoping it leads to at least some of his former worshippers converting to Mask. It'd be pretty cool if book 2 of the Twilight War trilogy featured a bunch of Cormanthor drow turning up and declaring their allegiance to Erevis Cale, especially as it would most likely mean at least one drow versus shades battle .



Who is Erevis Cale?
nbnmare Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 16:17:47
If Vhaeraun truly is dead, I'm hoping it leads to at least some of his former worshippers converting to Mask. It'd be pretty cool if book 2 of the Twilight War trilogy featured a bunch of Cormanthor drow turning up and declaring their allegiance to Erevis Cale, especially as it would most likely mean at least one drow versus shades battle .
Ardashir Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 15:42:40
quote:
Originally posted by Trizzt08

SPOILER




Well it might, Eilistraee has defeated and absorbed Vaheruns essence, now she has his followers as well. imagine all the male drow having to chose between physco chick or someone who won't kill them for having an opinion. she's probaly gonna be a Greater god now or at least Intermediate



That's "IF" Vhaeraun is even dead. He *is* the Drow god of Trickery and Deceit, among other things. If anyone could fake out Lady Silverhair, it'd be him.

Zanan Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 09:09:17
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Aside from, well, the most recent issues in the LP series, which I won't go into, everything up to 1375 DR has really been more or less explained. Or at least to the degree that most campaigns should need them . . . yes, we didn't really get an exact date for Lolth's return, but I don't think it really matters what divine rank any god has to most campaigns.


Well, it is not about divine rankings here, but if you have campaigns running with "evil" drow and are in the process of writing adventures (which may get the approval of Paizo or the Wizards), you would want to know if certain deities are still out and about at all.

Divine Ranking is something which is utterly unneccessary, as no-one will really care what stats a deity has - unless the private campaign goes into Epic-epic proportions. Deities are deities and should remain untouchable for PC. Thus, most stats material in e.g. F&P is just for people with a liking to debate highly theoretical / hypothetical stuff. The Faiths & Avatars series led the way in this respect.

Sian Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 06:30:00
greater god ... nah ... not before Lolth is dead and buried, and the drows moved back to the ground ...
Trizzt08 Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 04:40:30
SPOILER




Well it might, Eilistraee has defeated and absorbed Vaheruns essence, now she has his followers as well. imagine all the male drow having to chose between physco chick or someone who won't kill them for having an opinion. she's probaly gonna be a Greater god now or at least Intermediate
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 00:11:30
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I'd almost imagine he would be more skeptical of Eilistraee worshipers than most novel characters, but perhaps I read things differently than others.



Actually, I'd agree with this--or at least, Drizzt is likely to be cautious of any drow claiming to be a follower of Eilistraee. His encounter with Donnia What's-Her-Face in Book 2 of the Hunter's Blade trilogy sort of confirms this (she was a drow who tried to trick Drizzt into letting his guard down by claiming to be a follower of Eilistraee).
KnightErrantJR Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 16:31:37
Honestly, I've never quite gotten how you can read a novel with Drizzt with any level of care at all and come away with the idea that most drow are good. I understand that many people are inspired by him to want to play good drow, but in defence of RAS, Drizzt, when thinking of his kinsfolk, is almost always thinking in terms of how debased and evil his people are. In fact, it seems to me that he's always been more likely to assume that orcs and goblins might have a spark of good in them before thinking the same is possible of drow. I'd almost imagine he would be more skeptical of Eilistraee worshipers than most novel characters, but perhaps I read things differently than others.

In regards to storylines being up in the air, the FRCS mentioned that the Retreat was over and elves would begin a Return, but the details of that really didn't come until the Last Mythal books came out, which was about five years after the FRCS. Aside from, well, the most recent issues in the LP series, which I won't go into, everything up to 1375 DR has really been more or less explained. Or at least to the degree that most campaigns should need them . . . yes, we didn't really get an exact date for Lolth's return, but I don't think it really matters what divine rank any god has to most campaigns.

I realize this may not be a satisfying answer, and I'm not saying its the best way of handling things one way or the other, just pointing out that the Retreat/Last Mythal issue kind of spells out that its WOTCs policy to take some time to spell things out, especially if the bulk of the explanation comes from the novel point of view.
Zanan Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 16:22:01
Good to see the Hooded One taking up with this topic too, in her own style. Or Ed's, for that matter.

Well, my issue with the WotsQ and LP is more a technical one, as it takes very (as in VERY) long time until real lore rather than novel material comes out. Not that it does matter that much and will influence many campaigns at all. But if you do "care" and have campaigns running along the official lines, it becomes somewhat difficult as a DM and player alike to play on the background of uncertainty for the better part of about 5 years now.
Most of the debates on Eilistraee and her worship could be avoided if people would have the option of reading all the great books available, which is, apart from those Ed / THO mentioned, also Demihuman Deities. The Lady Penitent novel gave a fine impression of the Eilistraeens too (well, that's the way I always perceived them), pretty much along the guidelines the lore provided to the author.

Obviously, goodly heroism provided by folk like Drizzt will always draw a fair audience, but it is neither representative about the drow of Har'oloth or in the Realms Above, as is explicitly said in novel and sourcebook alike. The problem is the number of novels on him that gets people on the ... let's say misleading track. And from that, the imagination sets off to pastures not belonging to the lore on the drow (as yet). In that respect though, some "fans" of the original drow fear that demand leads the Wizards to accept that trend and shake the drow and their pantheon about towards the "perceived" Eilistraee, Drizzt and Co.. Hence the mixed emotions prominent on here and over at the WizBoards.
Jorkens Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 16:05:41
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR

quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded OneHe finds it especially ridiculous when gamers try to portray him as the champion of Eilistraee, pitted against Bob Salvatore as the champion of Lolth.






Anyone else picturing RAS as a big drider like creature facing off against Ed buck nekkid except for long silver hair and a sword? Just me? Okay . . . I'll get some help . . . thanks for the comment THO, regardless of the images it stirs up . . .



Somehow I am going to get revenge on you for giving me that mental picture KnightErrantJR. To all those disturbed, place Our Sweet Lady of the Hood in the place of Ed and we got a nice Frazetta-like picture instead. Now that's soothing.
KnightErrantJR Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 15:59:53
quote:
Originally posted by The Hooded OneHe finds it especially ridiculous when gamers try to portray him as the champion of Eilistraee, pitted against Bob Salvatore as the champion of Lolth.






Anyone else picturing RAS as a big drider like creature facing off against Ed buck nekkid except for long silver hair and a sword? Just me? Okay . . . I'll get some help . . . thanks for the comment THO, regardless of the images it stirs up . . .
The Hooded One Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 15:48:18
I passed this thread to Ed, and he verbally responded to me with some points:
The percentage figures he gave are for ALL drow, so it would be incorrect in the extreme to look for 10 percent or more of drow IN MENZO to worship Eilistraee. Almost all Eilistraean worshippers are on the surface (and no, the Promenade is not the surface; it, BTW, is of course NDA because of the forthcoming Undermountain book).
Ed still holds the opinion that Lolth is the "strongest" and most dominant drow deity, and always will be (at least underground). He just chuckled at all of this debate, saying drow and the gods are the topics that always seem to get Realms fans in such an uproar. He finds it especially ridiculous when gamers try to portray him as the champion of Eilistraee, pitted against Bob Salvatore as the champion of Lolth.
Yes, everything Ed says is canon until or unless contradicted by WotC-published lore. He IS the CREATOR of the Realms, folks (and the principal designer of the Menzo boxed set and the writer of DROW OF THE UNDERDARK, too).
All of which leads me to be very puzzled when anyone takes issue with Ed's opinions or statements regarding the drow. I don't recall any great rush of people telling Tolkien he got the Nazgul wrong, or telling McCaffrey she just doesn't understand the dragons of Pern...

love to all,
THO
Charles Phipps Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 08:55:04
If I were to give a "fanon" answer, I'd probably say that the reason so many people worship the Dark Maiden is because of Lolth's Silence and the Time of Troubles when so many people were forced to confront the visible proof that their deity is falliable. After the TOT, then the monolithic Lolth worshipping society we saw in Menzoberrazan was utterly destroyed and frankly people started exploring their options.

Lolth has lost MAJOR ground at this point.
boards Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 06:17:57
Despite all the happy dogma they seemed pretty ready to attack Dove without any benefit of the doubt in Silverfall.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin Posted - 09 Feb 2007 : 22:55:50
The followers of Eilistraee aren't quick to trust, but that doesn't mean they would out-and-out kill people who just happened to stumble upon them. As for magically erasing memories...I rather doubt that, too, unless it's deemed necessary--part of winning people over to the faith is by teaching them that Eilistraee promotes kindness towards everyone, and the faith wouldn't spread as easily if people weren't permitted to remember that.

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