| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| ShadowJack |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 12:41:57
Sages,
Sorry for another random thought about the Year of Rogue Dragons, but... I was pondering if Queen Amlaruil as the "leader" of most of the elven peoples and a powerful High Mage, would have known where the Rage came from? Or was the source of the Rage truly forgotten? It has no bearing on my campaign, but it does make for possible interesting political situations. Would this cause people to have more distrust/dislike of the elven people? (I like elves so don't yell at me) Think about it, elves have destroyed an empire, Jhaamdath, decimated an entire geographical region, the High Moor and unleashed thousands of years of Dragon Flights on the Realms... If this info becomes widely known it could cause some hard feelings even thought it was thousands of years ago... |
| 26 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| boards |
Posted - 03 Nov 2006 : 07:49:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[As for the pact between good dragons and elves... Do we know when it was forged? If it comes after the Dracorage Mythal was raised, then those who forged the pact may not have known about it... If the dragons start pointing talons at the elves, the elves can simply point back and say "well, look what would have happened if we didn't do it!"
According to the Evermeet Novel Prince Durothil was the original elven Dragonrider, though this seems to have died out somewhat and was renewed during the reign of Vhori (Sp?)Durothil. His daughter, a high mage summonded a large number of good dragons to combat a flight of dragons |
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 03 Nov 2006 : 00:25:01
Conversations like this are why I love Candlekeep!  Awesome lore drop everybody. I learned A LOT!!!! Now I need to read the books.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Nov 2006 : 00:09:11
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Its actually suprising that the Dragons didnt figure out the elves involvement after all as I said above there where several elven settlements where the Dragonrage mythral doesnt work at some point between -8000 and -1000 elves knew enough about the Dragon Rage Mythral to block it
I still don't see that they had to know about the Dracorage Mythal to mitigate its effects... The effects were clear and obvious. Why is knowing the effects not enough to figure out a counter for them? You don't have to understand why it rains to put some cover over yourself to keep from being affected by it... |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 23:18:57
Its actually suprising that the Dragons didnt figure out the elves involvement after all as I said above there where several elven settlements where the Dragonrage mythral doesnt work at some point between -8000 and -1000 elves knew enough about the Dragon Rage Mythral to block it |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 20:31:42
Well we know that the elves that created the mythal were elves connected with the one gold dragon from the RLB story in Realms of Elves (forgive me for not remembering his name). There may have been other elves from the domains of other dragons involved as well, but its likely they were all rebels/escapees/fugitives from their dragon masters. There were also likely smaller elven tribes that were dodging getting ensnared by the various dragons and their domains that may have helped out with this whole process.
However, obviously a fairly large group of avariels knew about this as well, since they died, en masse, to protect the gateway to the mythal itself. We know from Evermeet that the avarials were very rare way back when the other elves came to Faerun, so its possible that this small group made contact with the avariels, and they aided them in this.
It is possible then that perhaps most of the "organized" knowledge of this even was lost when so many avariels died, and only a few families of gold, moon, and wood elves would know a great deal about what actually happened when the mythal was raised.
I guess what I am trying to say is that it is possible, if you beleive that there had to be a fairly large number of elves to deal with the "heavy lifting" of this project, that perhaps most of those "heavy lifters" were avariels, who were slaughtered almost to extinction before the more formal elven empires really even got going.
Just a theory. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 20:25:32
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[Actually, do we know it was a race-shaking event? What's not to say that a (relatively) small group of elves took it upon themselves to do this, without informing anyone? After all, the fewer people that know about something, the easier it is to keep it a secret. And I'd certainly expect that those who actually decided to do this and then implemented it would do their best to keep the whole thing secret -- because the last thing they would need is for a group of dragons to later find out about the whole thing, and either seek revenge or find a way to twist it to their advantage.
thats all true...I was only surmising it was a race-shaking event as it was the event that freed the elven race from the bondage of the dragons |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 20:23:13
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Well,
I'd have to say the elves didn't know. Hells, they basically forgot about the Fey'ri after that house was imprisoned, according to the Last Mythal events. So, the spell to cast the Rage was centuries before that. :)
I wouldn't disagree with the great time difference between to two storylines but IMO the laying of the Dracorage Mythal was a RSE (race shaking event) of the elven race while the Dlargauths (sp?) and the Fey'ri were more a localized event, one that was also covered up to hide the shame and disgrace the eleven peopel had for that family
Actually, do we know it was a race-shaking event? What's not to say that a (relatively) small group of elves took it upon themselves to do this, without informing anyone? After all, the fewer people that know about something, the easier it is to keep it a secret. And I'd certainly expect that those who actually decided to do this and then implemented it would do their best to keep the whole thing secret -- because the last thing they would need is for a group of dragons to later find out about the whole thing, and either seek revenge or find a way to twist it to their advantage. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 20:08:51
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Well,
I'd have to say the elves didn't know. Hells, they basically forgot about the Fey'ri after that house was imprisoned, according to the Last Mythal events. So, the spell to cast the Rage was centuries before that. :)
I wouldn't disagree with the great time difference between to two storylines but IMO the laying of the Dracorage Mythal was a RSE (race shaking event) of the elven race while the Dlargauths (sp?) and the Fey'ri were more a localized event, one that was also covered up to hide the shame and disgrace the eleven peopel had for that family |
| Kuje |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 19:20:54
Well,
I'd have to say the elves didn't know. Hells, they basically forgot about the Fey'ri after that house was imprisoned, according to the Last Mythal events. So, the spell to cast the Rage was centuries before that. :) |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 18:58:06
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
true enough 
that makes sense how he got it...but it still doesn't resolve the apparent lack of knowledge of the elves... |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 18:55:06
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
An excellent point. The elven casters could have even deliberately placed the draconic flavor in the spell, to make it something the dragons wouldn't notice and/or to increase the possibility of affecting dragons.
true enough
but I still don't think it is that logical that all memory of the laying of the dracorage mythal would have passed from elven knowledge, especially the eldest of elven lorekeepers and high mages and especially if there are any tel'kira (sp and right name?) surviving at least from the time of the Crown Wars...at the very least it would have been a legend of ancient past...which means that some elven scholar would have clued in on what may have been happening...
** camouflaged spoiler **
I havn't read the third book yet...how did Sammaster gain knowledge of the Dracomage Mythal? did he stumble upon it by fortune?
The third book might not be the end all of how he found it . . . Dragons of Faerun intimates that Tiamat was dropping hints here and there because she was hoping that he would screw up the mythal somehow. As much as I liked the original trilogy, I liked this extra layer of sneakiness even more . . . |
| ShadowJack |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 18:50:11
I was also surprised that there was no "tribal lore" or oral history of the part that the avariels played in the mythal. For the number of avariels that died, someone should remember something about the "great sacrifice" that their ancestors made for future elven generations... |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 18:41:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
An excellent point. The elven casters could have even deliberately placed the draconic flavor in the spell, to make it something the dragons wouldn't notice and/or to increase the possibility of affecting dragons.
true enough
but I still don't think it is that logical that all memory of the laying of the dracorage mythal would have passed from elven knowledge, especially the eldest of elven lorekeepers and high mages and especially if there are any tel'kira (sp and right name?) surviving at least from the time of the Crown Wars...at the very least it would have been a legend of ancient past...which means that some elven scholar would have clued in on what may have been happening...
** camouflaged spoiler **
I havn't read the third book yet...how did Sammaster gain knowledge of the Dracomage Mythal? did he stumble upon it by fortune? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 18:24:19
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
I agree with you...but I would think that an elder high elven mage would be able to "taste" the magic of the Dragorage Mythal and know it was elven made, even if they did not know that it was the elves who laid the mythal
I'd expect that only in the immediate presence of the place where the mythal was laid. Dragons are highly magical critters, too, so they'd likely feel the magic, unless it was very subtly wrought -- which, as I suspect, it was.
Not to mention that the elves learned a lot of the magic during this early period from dragons, which means there might be traces of dragon "flavored" magic as well.
An excellent point. The elven casters could have even deliberately placed the draconic flavor in the spell, to make it something the dragons wouldn't notice and/or to increase the possibility of affecting dragons. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 18:00:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
I agree with you...but I would think that an elder high elven mage would be able to "taste" the magic of the Dragorage Mythal and know it was elven made, even if they did not know that it was the elves who laid the mythal
I'd expect that only in the immediate presence of the place where the mythal was laid. Dragons are highly magical critters, too, so they'd likely feel the magic, unless it was very subtly wrought -- which, as I suspect, it was.
Not to mention that the elves learned a lot of the magic during this early period from dragons, which means there might be traces of dragon "flavored" magic as well. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 17:05:24
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
I agree with you...but I would think that an elder high elven mage would be able to "taste" the magic of the Dragorage Mythal and know it was elven made, even if they did not know that it was the elves who laid the mythal
I'd expect that only in the immediate presence of the place where the mythal was laid. Dragons are highly magical critters, too, so they'd likely feel the magic, unless it was very subtly wrought -- which, as I suspect, it was.
|
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 16:02:17
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think if the elves had remembered having any part of the Rage, then they would have been leading the charge to find out why this one was different, and if it could be stopped... I am of the opinion that it was never all that well-known that the elves did it, and that the knowledge was lost over time.
Elven sites being immune to the Rage was, I think, a precaution that stemmed from the existence of the continuing Rage, not the knowledge that they had kicked it off.
I think that if the elves had remembered doing such a thing, they would have later gone back and either turned it off or damped it down, because it was no longer the necessity it once was.
As for the pact between good dragons and elves... Do we know when it was forged? If it comes after the Dracorage Mythal was raised, then those who forged the pact may not have known about it... If the dragons start pointing talons at the elves, the elves can simply point back and say "well, look what would have happened if we didn't do it!"
I agree with you...but I would think that an elder high elven mage would be able to "taste" the magic of the Dragorage Mythal and know it was elven made, even if they did not know that it was the elves who laid the mythal
and I'd suspect it was less of a "elf:dragon pact" and more of the elves raising dragons from hatching...with a bit of friendly dragons who were born in Evermeet with a great fondness of elves.. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 15:33:36
Good point about the elves possibly not knowing about it. When the elves created it, they didn't exactly have a powerful empire of their own. Excellent short story by RLB detailing the creation of it though . . . one of my favorites in Realms of Elves. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 15:24:09
I think if the elves had remembered having any part of the Rage, then they would have been leading the charge to find out why this one was different, and if it could be stopped... I am of the opinion that it was never all that well-known that the elves did it, and that the knowledge was lost over time.
Elven sites being immune to the Rage was, I think, a precaution that stemmed from the existence of the continuing Rage, not the knowledge that they had kicked it off.
I think that if the elves had remembered doing such a thing, they would have later gone back and either turned it off or damped it down, because it was no longer the necessity it once was.
As for the pact between good dragons and elves... Do we know when it was forged? If it comes after the Dracorage Mythal was raised, then those who forged the pact may not have known about it... If the dragons start pointing talons at the elves, the elves can simply point back and say "well, look what would have happened if we didn't do it!" |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 15:22:47
All things depending on Tiamat and her plans, and while it had to be done for the greater good, who knows if historians might not actually get upset with Dorn and his friends, because the destruction of the Mythal allowed dragons to become more active in the Realms.
|
| ShadowJack |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 15:09:29
KEJr,
I don't fault the elves for what they did; desperate times call for desperate measures. Dargoth brings up a good point, would the pact continue between good dragons and elves? Very interesting questions. I tend to take the view that Kalin mentioned above, that the elven sages knew elves were involved but the particulars were lost to history... It certainly would not be a point that the elves would want to be widely known... |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 14:58:54
My guess would be that elves, especially High Mages, might have known or suspected that High Magic was involved, but they didn't automatically know that there was still an active mythal causing it to occur. For all they might have known, the spell might have been cast on the King-killer itself, rather than on anything on Toril itself.
I don't know that Bahamut would carry a grudge, because it was pointed out that even the metallic dragons weren't as benevolent as they are now. It seemed like during the time of the Dragons, you had evil dragons, and arrogant neutral dragons. So what the elves did was completely understandable. |
| Alediran |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 14:57:33
If demihuman races and the humans should have any feelings about the elves creating the Dracorage Mythal, it should be of thanks, because without this mythal, dragons would have ruled unchallenged, and many metallic dragons are also aware of how they behave in that ancient time and are shamefull because of it, so putting and end to their reigns allowed to realize how wrong they were. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 14:12:08
Ill be very interested to see if the pact between the elves and good aligned dragons continues now that the cat is out of the bag
I wonder if the resurgent church of Bahumut will have a cool relationship with the elves... Would LG Dragon deity hold a grudge over what the elves did? |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 13:39:22
That was a good question! 
and seeing how the history of the elves is littered with grand actions that affected hundreds to millions of lives, I'm sure, if the queen didn't know, some elven sage on the island did...
but then again, the laying of the dracorage mythal was very long ago, even before the Sundering...
so my educated guess is that Evermeet suspected that the elven race was involved in the creation of the Rage, but they had forgotten the 5 W's of it... |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 13:30:46
Given the fact that there are several Elven sites that are immune to the rage (Such as the one in Waterdeep) I think the elves know that their causing the rage |
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