| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Neonai |
Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 23:58:05
It is a rather silly question though but ý couldn't help asking.
Where would the deities go after they die?
Like Myrkul dies and appears again in a crown, Bane dies and comes back, etc. as far as ý know deities can not be comletely destroyed if they have any believer left. and if not they vanish from existence.
but let s say, for the forgotten deities, someone found a tome praising a long forgotten deity and started to worship it and spread its dogmas, would that deity reappears?
where would that god dwell during that time? would it automaticaly take back its former domain? or do they simply create a new domain?
further for the dwelling case, does the destoyed gods like bane and forgotten gods like anuomator go the same plane or whatever after they lose their original domain to another god? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 06 Mar 2010 : 00:48:17
Good to know. I'd like to think that at least one can still come back. It just is not the same without those two opposing Lolth. The same goes for loosing Mystra. Still think that was the worst idea ever. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 06 Mar 2010 : 00:28:31
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
So in the cases of say- Vaerhaun and Eilistraee, who were both recently killed, would their bodies still be floating on the Astral?
Unless specifically told otherwise in the lore, I'd imagine this would be the case.
Unfortunately, we had little true lore on this planar aspect in 3e. However, since we didn't learn otherwise, I think it's fair enough to assume that for the most part, such an aspect still had some place in the 3e [and even 4e] FR cosmology as well.
quote:
If so, could they be resurrected or rise again?
This depends, as Ed indicated above, on whether the relationship between the dead or fallen god, and his/her worshippers, is still strong enough to allow for a potential resurgence in faith for the "dead" deity.
quote:
Or do their domains just end up slowly fading? (Granted, I think it's been hinted that Corellon took over hers, but you never know.)
They can fade, or change [due to the absence of the ruling deity], or simply "fall" and merge with other similarly-aligned planes. Alternatively, a deity [either as the conqueror or ally] with portfolios similar to the fallen deity may subsume that fallen deity's former domain in an attempt to either preserve whatever remains of that deity's former power or merge it with his/her own. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 06 Mar 2010 : 00:17:06
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
So in the cases of say- Vaerhaun and Eilistraee, who were both recently killed, would their bodies still be floating on the Astral? If so, could they be resurrected or rise again? Or do their domains just end up slowly fading? (Granted, I think it's been hinted that Corellon took over hers, but you never know.)
Yes, yes, and yes, assuming they are not resurrected. At least before 4E, dead deities wound up in the Astral, but could be resurrected, given the right conditions (which would including worshippers and enough power). If they weren't resurrected, their domains -- as in, deific homes -- do wind up fading. Their portfolios could be grabbed, though -- death isn't even a prerequisite for losing a portfolio. |
| Alystra Illianniis |
Posted - 05 Mar 2010 : 22:55:42
So in the cases of say- Vaerhaun and Eilistraee, who were both recently killed, would their bodies still be floating on the Astral? If so, could they be resurrected or rise again? Or do their domains just end up slowly fading? (Granted, I think it's been hinted that Corellon took over hers, but you never know.) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Mar 2010 : 14:53:41
Ed has covered this topic, somewhat, in his replies here at Candlekeep -- specifically throughout most of '05.
As Ed has said -
"January 25, 2005: Hello, all. Ed answers Elf_Friend:
Regarding dead gods: mortals of Faerûn don’t know the true “current body count,” or where the residue of the divine essence of a dead god lies.
In part, this is because it’s very hard for a god to truly die unless very carefully destroyed by another god: otherwise, if some mortal of Faerûn still worships them or discovers them and starts worshipping them, later (even centuries later), they ‘rise’ again, albeit as almost powerless ghostly awarenesses (at their weakest).
The arguments among churches (about what god did what to which other god) confuse the average inhabitant of the Realms (who to believe?), but I’d say that among humans, most are aware that Bhaal, Iyachtu Xvim, Leira, and Myrkul are ‘dead.’ Only sages and some priests and wizards have even heard of, say, Karsus, and most folk accept that there are countless ‘godlings’ worshipped by various ‘cultists’ here and there across the Realms (from Savras and other half-remembered names to the beast-cults to “those dangerous folk who worship the skeletons of DRAGONS if ye can believe it, aye?”).
So some of them are dead and gone ‘forever’ (although one can then debate just how long ‘forever’ is, of course :}), but most are, as you say, “just dead, ready to be revived thru some epic act or worship.”
So saith Ed, Creator and Supreme Loremaster of the Realms. Also Champion Belcher of Colborne, I trow.
love to all,
THO"
Also -
"So there’s constant worship going on for almost every divine being, rumored-to-be-divine being, half-forgotten and misremembered godlings... and even slain divine beings linger on as demigods or divine sparks that can “come back” if the right conditions occur. It’s hard to fall from the ranks of demigodhood, once attained: one simply becomes a weaker demigod. Mortals in the Realms are always whispering prayers to “forgotten” gods, in hopes that the grateful deity will give them a lot of aid, swiftly, either out of eagerness to have a new mortal worshipper to command, or simply because they hear and heed the prayer (where a more popular deity may miss or have scant regard for that one prayer, amid the deafening chorus of so many)." |
| The DMs Revenge |
Posted - 05 Mar 2010 : 14:14:40
In Lost Empires of Faerûn, the fading plane of Zigruathaxus (sp) still has petitioners on it, even though all of its resident gods (the Untheric pantheon) are all dead (or took their divine realm) some place else - Tiamat & Hoar). So I would imagine that newly dead worshipers of Gilgeam (for instance) would still go to his slowly fading realm. And outsiders are still fulfilling their god-given tasks.
If a god's divine realm's size is dictated by his divine "rank" (i.e., number of worshipers), then perhaps a divine realm doesn't truly fade until the last of the resident faithful is absorbed into / become one with the plane.
|
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 03 Nov 2006 : 22:41:13
Honestly, that's got to be a boring afterlife. All the more reason for those same outsiders to be trying to influence the masses once again to bring their god and their god's flock back to fruition. Go Amauntor!
C-Fb |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 22:39:11
Well, we know that one of the benefits of having the "Servant of the Fallen" feat is that your soul isn't chucked into the Wall of the Faithless, so you can be raised and ressurected as normal. That would either mean that you get carte blanche to hang around the Fugue Plane indefinately waithing for your god, and Kelemvor won't judge you or kick you out, or it could mean that some other deity has taken on stewardship of the souls of X deity's faithful, and takes them into their realm, at least until said deific corpse shows signs of life again.
I could also be that a dead god that still has followers also still has planar followers and that these outsiders are allowed, by agreement with Kelemvor, to take the souls to the gods old realm, although if the realm itself falls apart, that would mean that you are right back into wondering where the souls are going to go.
Still, its kind of interesting to picture outsiders that still follow the tenants of a dead god, taking the souls of the faithful to an empty realm, waiting for their god to return to life. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 14:09:17
quote:
Originally posted by Talanfir Swiftfeet
I have a question. Where do the worshipers who have already died go after their god has died.
Meaning forexample where have the worshippers of Moander who died before Moanders death gone. Do they get split along with the portfolio between Finder and Lloth.
I imagine more likely when they go the realm of the god with their old god's portfolio or they become Faithless...
in 2E they may also just go to their proper "alignment" plane and become a general petitioner |
| Talanfir Swiftfeet |
Posted - 01 Nov 2006 : 10:46:24
I have a question. Where do the worshipers who have already died go after their god has died.
Meaning forexample where have the worshippers of Moander who died before Moanders death gone. Do they get split along with the portfolio between Finder and Lloth. |
| Varl |
Posted - 31 Oct 2006 : 04:33:42
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
In 1e and 2e they went to the Astral.... we really aren't totally positive that this is still the case in FR's new cosmology but there's no lore stating it isn't the case either. :)
I wonder what, if anything, Ao would have to say about this. I know the Overgod typically isn't very interactive to begin with (officially anyway. He's a bit more interactive with the gods IMG), but would he just consider this dormant state part of the deific status quo, sort of a divine graveyard? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Oct 2006 : 12:05:45
Anubis, as the "Guardian of the Dead Gods", presents a unique case in terms of relations to the FR cosmology in 3e. As it is... I wouldn't think he'd have much purchase in the Realms nor with the Mulhorandi pantheon because we know Anubis "ascended" (by giving up his divinity) to his unique divine position before the Mulhorandi pantheon had properly established themselves in Faerun.
If there is a Realms Anubis, I think he/it would still be divorced from the actual conception of Anubis as in the core D&D cosmology... an Realmsian interpretation for the Great Tree could be just as applicable... and could have developed (or rather come to be) after the Mulhorandi pantheon gained influence in Realmspace.
Another possibility is... If the Mulhorandi pantheon came from elsewhere, and we know they still did, there's no reason some variation of Anubis didn't get dragged along as well. For example, Ptah never made it to the mainland of Toril, but was worshipped by Faerunian Spelljammers, and was instrumental in helping the Mulhorandi pantheon make their move. Anubis could have a very similar story.
|
| Paj |
Posted - 30 Oct 2006 : 10:27:18
If the Dead Gods physical manifestations do float in the Astral Plane, then would there also be a FR version of Anubis there to watch over them?
If so would he be from the Mulhorandi or Untheric Pantheons? OR another pantheon entirely? |
| Aglaranna |
Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 15:14:28
Most of them are in my living room. Let me tell you Aumantor is a real pain in the a**
[/quote]
*choke back laughter* Really? And how's Old Lord Bones doing? I hope he's not demanding Grandma's Mystery Meat, "Aka, Death Food". Asuming he's still dead...er. |
| MerrikCale |
Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 14:11:56
quote:
Originally posted by Neonai
Where would the deities go after they die?
Most of them are in my living room. Let me tell you Aumantor is a real pain in the a** |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 02:57:22
quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
There is an old Dungeon adventure that involved the "Queen" of the Githyanki.
And if you check out Dungeon #100 (as Sage mentioned) there's a map of the Githyanky city that comes with it.
The map depicts the corpse of a six armed (dead) god.
Now consider Eric (Boyd's) notion of Aumanator as a tri-partite deity....
I love it when good adventure seeds meet up with good adventures.
J. Grenemyer |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 01:18:33
quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
There is an old Dungeon adventure that involved the "Queen" of the Githyanki. The entire adventure occured inside the body of an unnamed dead god. The Githyanki had delved throughout and created a city inside of it. The adventure never named the god and it just floated in the Astral.
Which was fully detailed in DUNGEON #100.
|
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 00:28:53
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
I'v always thought that the powers are depicted too much as "uber characters" and not as actual "powers"...I mean less liek a person with tremendous powers with a job to do (i.e. their portfolio) and less on the sentient embodiment of the portfolio (that is why I approved of the change from 1E to 2E when gods become "more than mortal" and was disappointed when 3E brought that back
e.g. Talos is a uber powerful CE being whose job is to create and control storms and destruction or is the spirit/reality of storms and destruction physically manifested and given awarness
so to me your point that a cleric recieves spells (maybe even enhanced spellcasting) on the "corpse" of their gods makes sense...as the corpse (in my theory) is the physical manifestation of the sentience of that god...
Well, with one of the latest Realms books (Powers of Faerun) it is hinted that the core personality of the diety can be altered by their worshippers. Making them differing to mortals who's personality is more stable.
It is like all the worshippers of Mystra believing that the goddess is an evil, baby eating monster she would start to become one. The idea was also brought up in Champions of Valour. Page six discusses the portfolio of gods as showing the people of Faerun view those ports in reguard to good and evil.
An example is Nature. Nature is a neutral or indifferent force, but most people view it as good. So many nature gods are good. (The gods of Fury are seen more as Destructive gods than nature gods, destruction being evil to the people of Faerun).
Another example is Heresy, which in Powers can be linked to a change in the personality and nature of a god. Like the Risen Sun Heresy, which says Lathander is Amaunator. The more that people believe this, the more Amaunator like Lathander is likely to becomes.
So in a way, 3.5ed Realms hints that the gods are mortal like and yet not mortals. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 21:17:36
quote:
Originally posted by Foxhelm
Like being able to allow their clerics to gain spells while on their god's body. Or semi-sentience from random moment to moment (perhaps measured in months, years or decades). Other ideas uses the vanished realms of those gods. Perhaps another corpse exist in that realm, perhaps with more power. Or portals to those lost realms might exist only on the god corpse.
Just some thought on the matter.
I'v always thought that the powers are depicted too much as "uber characters" and not as actual "powers"...I mean less liek a person with tremendous powers with a job to do (i.e. their portfolio) and less on the sentient embodiment of the portfolio (that is why I approved of the change from 1E to 2E when gods become "more than mortal" and was disappointed when 3E brought that back
e.g. Talos is a uber powerful CE being whose job is to create and control storms and destruction or is the spirit/reality of storms and destruction physically manifested and given awarness
so to me your point that a cleric recieves spells (maybe even enhanced spellcasting) on the "corpse" of their gods makes sense...as the corpse (in my theory) is the physical manifestation of the sentience of that god... |
| Foxhelm |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 21:07:33
PGtF pg.142 states that the Realm's Astral Plane is just like that in D&D core, except that one has to go through the Material plane to reach other (inner/outer) planes. That is the only difference between the two.
MoP pg.47 does mention the body of dead gods, so that seems to hint at dead Faerun gods lurking there. Pg.51 of the same manual give question about these bodies (Ex. Physical mortal bodies, Gravestones for the gods, sleeping dieties forms).
Since there are dead gods on Faerun, I would allow diety corpses to exist and use the Astral as a graveyard. But given the fact that dead dieties seem to have other links to the world (Helmlands, Bhaalspawn, Baneliches, Crown of Horns, Curse water by Bhaal, Servant of the Fallen Feat ), I might allow some of these corpses to hold more power.
Like being able to allow their clerics to gain spells while on their god's body. Or semi-sentience from random moment to moment (perhaps measured in months, years or decades). Other ideas uses the vanished realms of those gods. Perhaps another corpse exist in that realm, perhaps with more power. Or portals to those lost realms might exist only on the god corpse.
Just some thought on the matter. |
| Mkhaiwati |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 19:15:36
There is an old Dungeon adventure that involved the "Queen" of the Githyanki. The entire adventure occured inside the body of an unnamed dead god. The Githyanki had delved throughout and created a city inside of it. The adventure never named the god and it just floated in the Astral. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 18:41:38
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Which is now in the hands of Shar.
which kinda freaked me out when I read that for the first time   |
| Sian |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 18:41:18
what would be interesting is ressurecting Othea ... for starters it means that the Giant socaity gets shaken (and prehaps end up fueling a war or two between the diffent giant races or prehaps even a war of the sexes in giant areas) ... secondly it would cause Ulutiu to wake and that, would rather quicky start out an war between him Umberlee and/or Auril |
| Kuje |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 18:28:50
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Silvanus79
As for Karsus, isn't there something called the Karsus Stone somewhere in the High Forest that holds some strange power or something? I remember a vague reference to it in a series I read a few years ago.
As I was writing this, I thought of an awesome idea... What if someone were to take the premise from Dead Gods, tie in a fanatical cult dedicated to Karsus, and have a group of adventurers try to prevent the cult from resurrecting him? I know he can't really be resurrected, but perhaps it brings back some twisted creature that was made as a result of their magic. Hmm....
the Karsus Stone is the petrified heart of Karsus's physical body when he grasped divinity
Which is now in the hands of Shar.
|
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 18:26:33
quote:
Originally posted by Silvanus79
As for Karsus, isn't there something called the Karsus Stone somewhere in the High Forest that holds some strange power or something? I remember a vague reference to it in a series I read a few years ago.
As I was writing this, I thought of an awesome idea... What if someone were to take the premise from Dead Gods, tie in a fanatical cult dedicated to Karsus, and have a group of adventurers try to prevent the cult from resurrecting him? I know he can't really be resurrected, but perhaps it brings back some twisted creature that was made as a result of their magic. Hmm....
the Karsus Stone is the petrified heart of Karsus's physical body when he grasped divinity
and that cult did exist once...they were the ones that built Karse on Karsus's dead body...the ones Wulgreth currupted/destroyed in revenge to Karsus |
| Silvanus79 |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 18:23:56
Just to add a little, the old Planescape adventure "Dead gods" had a wonderful adventure about the corpse of a god floating on the Astral. I've personally ran that adventure with two different groups and it's quite enjoyable for those of you who like Planescape games.
Now, back to Realms before I get smacked.
I do remember the reference from "Finder's Bane" to deities floating in the Astral, so that's how they are in my Realms games as well.
As for Karsus, isn't there something called the Karsus Stone somewhere in the High Forest that holds some strange power or something? I remember a vague reference to it in a series I read a few years ago.
As I was writing this, I thought of an awesome idea... What if someone were to take the premise from "Dead Gods", tie in a fanatical cult dedicated to Karsus, and have a group of adventurers try to prevent the cult from resurrecting him? I know he can't really be resurrected, but perhaps it brings back some twisted creature that was made as a result of their magic. Hmm.... |
| Kuje |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 16:53:43
Powers and Pantheons says he tenuously drifts in the Astral and he is also connected to Faerun via the Direwood. So, he's in both. :) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 15:08:19
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Neonai
man, ý m full of questions.
what about karsus he became a god for a short time, is he considered to be a dead god and drifting in astral plane too?
maybe, but I don't think so...
the 2E The North box set describes what happend to his stone body, heart, etc.
And that's another freebie from the Wizards downloads page. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 14:11:24
quote:
Originally posted by Neonai
man, ý m full of questions.
what about karsus he became a god for a short time, is he considered to be a dead god and drifting in astral plane too?
maybe, but I don't think so...
the 2E The North box set describes what happend to his stone body, heart, etc.
the question is (and may have been answered in Planescape) that is the corpse of a god in the Astral Plane the actual physical corpse...or the physical manifestation of the power (as in 2E, when Planescape was developed) gods actually were more beings of thought and didn't actually have a body...and as the Astral Plane is the plane of thought...well, it makes sense to me
anywho...if a god's corpse is the corpse of it's thoughts, then Karsus maybe in the Astral...but when he reached divinity, just for that moment, his physical form fell into the High Forest...thus his corpse is there... |
| Neonai |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 09:21:39
man, ý m full of questions.
what about karsus he became a god for a short time, is he considered to be a dead god and drifting in astral plane too? |
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