| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Sourcemaster2 |
Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 23:17:45
Is anyone else unhappy with the spell-like abilities possessed by drow in 3.5? Where once they commanded a potent globe of absolute darkness that could either "stick" to an opponent or hang immobile in space, now they have can merely cause shadowy illumination with a whopping 20% miss chance. Not only that, but it requires touch, so no hurling darkness on unsuspecting foes for a surprise attack. I think drow--at least FR drow--should be given an ability more accurately reflecting the novels. |
| 29 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 15 Dec 2015 : 12:07:45
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
I didn't think Levitate was something every Drow can do? I thought it was because of their house insignia and nobility that allowed such powers.
quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
2E Drow of the Underdark notes: "Drow of above fourth level gain "mature powers" of levitate, know alignment, and detect magic."[...]
Commoner drow can use those powers 1/day.
Yup. And 1/day is not much, if you live in a twisted terrain, let alone in a stalactite on the ceiling. Which is why insignia often allows to do it more (to the members of Noble Houses, anyway).
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
This is probably the best explanation I've come across on this topic:
1). The Darkness spell causes the area in which it is placed to be limited to Dim Light.
or
2) It degrades illumination by 1 step. Because in 3.x it's "bright" - "shadowy" - "dark".
Anyhow, no idea why they'd change from mostly- AD&D.x version in 3.0. Maybe because Deeper Darkness was of very limited use?
I doubt they could predict anyone - let alone depressing amount of players - would actually lawyerise that "Darkness [Darkness]" spell must make light because a typo says something that can be interpreted to this end if one doesn't know what this word means and misses the rest of the description.  |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 14 Dec 2015 : 23:37:38
I don't want to totally derail a thread about drow powers into a debate about 3.5's stupid darkness spell, so I'll just say that the Darkness spell descriptor does not correspond to your latest post, Diffan. 3.5, for better or worse, was very specific in that what was written was the actual rule. 2e was much squishier; 3e was set in stone.
That's why Rules As Written (RAW) trumps Rules As Intended (RAI). That doesn't stop a DM from houseruling things one way or another, but when we talk about the game in general, we have to talk about RAW. And while the RAI of Darkness was probably the sphere of absolute blackness from 2e and 3.0, that's not what was actually written.
It doesn't matter that the spell doesn't have a Light descriptor. It says only and simply that it radiates shadowy illumination. It radiates weak light, exactly like a torch or candle, only without the center area of bright light. Which means, stupid as it sounds, that if you cast darkness in actual darkness, you get light. No, it doesn't make sense, but that's RAW.
Not that this has anything to do with whether drow are balanced, or whether their SLA's or LA should be adjusted. So let's get back to that, shall we? |
| Diffan |
Posted - 14 Dec 2015 : 22:16:07
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
Yes, Diffan, actually it does brighten things. Read that description again. Darkness creates "shadowy illumination." Or check the SRD:
quote:
Vision and Light
In an area of bright light, all characters can see clearly. A creature can’t hide in an area of bright light unless it is invisible or has cover.
In an area of shadowy illumination, a character can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment relative to that character. A creature in an area of shadowy illumination can make a Hide check to conceal itself.
In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a -2 penalty to AC, moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and most Strength and Dexterity-based skill checks.
So darkness doesn't actually make darkness. It makes light. And if you're in the darkness, it manifestly makes things better.
This is probably the best explanation I've come across on this topic:
1). The Darkness spell causes the area in which it is placed to be limited to Dim Light. It is, however, not a [light] effect and furthermore does not add to the lighting level, rather setting the cap on illumination in the area to Dim Light. This is usually equivalent to creating a region of pitch-black magical darkness in the situations where the spell is likely to be cast, because the spell also prevents lower level spell-based magical lighting from working at all so there's usually no viable source of light functioning in the area of effect. Mundane light sources, however, are merely limited to not being able to raise the light level above dim.
Also, I think any DM who allowed a player to use Darkness to illuminate an area should probably not be DM much longer. Silly things like that are often one-way trips down Brokensville. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 14 Dec 2015 : 15:36:55
Yes, Diffan, actually it does brighten things. Read that description again. Darkness creates "shadowy illumination." Or check the SRD:
quote:
Vision and Light
In an area of bright light, all characters can see clearly. A creature can’t hide in an area of bright light unless it is invisible or has cover.
In an area of shadowy illumination, a character can see dimly. Creatures within this area have concealment relative to that character. A creature in an area of shadowy illumination can make a Hide check to conceal itself.
In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a -2 penalty to AC, moves at half speed, and takes a -4 penalty on Search checks and most Strength and Dexterity-based skill checks.
So darkness doesn't actually make darkness. It makes light. And if you're in the darkness, it manifestly makes things better. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 14 Dec 2015 : 14:53:02
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I find 3.5's darkness ridiculous regardless of who is casting it or how. It's not actually darkness: it's weak light.
Actually, it's shadowy illumination. This is "assuming" you're casting the spell in a lighted area to show it's visual effects.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
If you cast darkness in actual darkness (like, say, underground with no torch), it makes things brighter.
quote:
Originally from the SRD
Darkness
Evocation [Darkness]
Level: Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 2
Components: V, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Object touched
Duration: 10 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
This spell causes an object to radiate shadowy illumination out to a 20-foot radius. All creatures in the area gain concealment (20% miss chance). Even creatures that can normally see in such conditions (such as with darkvision or low-light vision) have the miss chance in an area shrouded in magical darkness.
Normal lights (torches, candles, lanterns, and so forth) are incapable of brightening the area, as are light spells of lower level. Higher level light spells are not affected by darkness.
If darkness is cast on a small object that is then placed inside or under a lightproof covering, the spell’s effect is blocked until the covering is removed.
Darkness counters or dispels any light spell of equal or lower spell level.
Arcane Material Component
A bit of bat fur and either a drop of pitch or a piece of coal.
So, actually no. If cast in darkness it doesn't brighten anything. Though I'd wager that a creature with Darkvision or low-light vision were to walk into this area they'd be instantly blinded, as per the spell.
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
I have no idea who's bright idea that was in the 3.5 design team, but it's inspired sighs and rolled eyes ever since.
Looking at the above description, I'm not entire sure why?
quote:
Originally posted by Hoondatha
3e removed that bit of balance, which is ironic, since 3e was obsessed with balance.
Really? I can then assume you've never actually played 3e because that edition is horribly imbalanced when you look at race, class, prestige class, feats, and basic game design.
[quote]Originally posted by Hoondatha
By making all drow everywhere, under all conditions, equal, they broke the relatively balanced race from 2e. Since I tend to stick to playing 2e, that's not a problem, but 3e people have been tinkering with it for years.
I'm not sure where you get this idea that drow are everywhere? Further, v3.5 main problem with drow is mostly pointed at their Spell Resistance (SR 11 + HD/Class lv). If you remove that then you can easily drop their level adjustment by +1 (making them a +1 race, which isn't that bad at all). WotC even went to the trouble of making "lesser" Drow in the back of the Player's Guide to Faerûn supplement for groups who liked playing drow but didn't want to heavily invest in a +2 LA race. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 13 Dec 2015 : 23:14:36
Pretty much spot on. I never saw their abilities as game breaking either. If all the players were drow or other Underdark races it's pretty much a wash. And depending on players it would be a simple matter to provide a few utility spells for other characters if balance is an issue. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 13 Dec 2015 : 22:58:01
I find 3.5's darkness ridiculous regardless of who is casting it or how. It's not actually darkness: it's weak light. If you cast darkness in actual darkness (like, say, underground with no torch), it makes things brighter. I have no idea who's bright idea that was in the 3.5 design team, but it's inspired sighs and rolled eyes ever since.
The problem with drow is that they were initially designed as a monster race. They were designed to be scary, and between their gamut of spell likes, their ubiquitous and powerful poisons, and especially their massive magic resistance, they were extremely successful. When they started to become PC's 2e balanced them by removing all of the extra abilities.
3e removed that bit of balance, which is ironic, since 3e was obsessed with balance. By making all drow everywhere, under all conditions, equal, they broke the relatively balanced race from 2e. Since I tend to stick to playing 2e, that's not a problem, but 3e people have been tinkering with it for years. |
| Kyrel |
Posted - 13 Dec 2015 : 17:30:30
Personally I've always found the 3.5 Drows woefully underpowered for a +2LA. Sure, they get a number of spell-like abilities, but the effect of them IMO so insignificant that they in no way justify the debilitating effects of the LA.
2nd ed. gave them a bonus on Dex and Int, and if I recall correctly, a negative modifier on their Con. They also got Dancing Lights, Darkness (equivalent of Greater Darkness in 3.5) and Faerie Fire (which I recall as being more powerful in 2nd ed., though that can be my memory). Additionally:
"Drow of above fourth level gain mature powers of levitate, know alignment, and detect magic. Drow priests and priestesses also gain additional spell-like powers (in addition to their spells) through divine favor. These include clairvoyance, detect lie, suggestion, and dispel magic. At the DM's option, these can extend to such abilities as detect undead, ESP (other drow only, 20' maximum range), and invisibility to undead. (DM NOTE: It is suggested that a clerical drow have a 20% chance of improving an existing power, and a 10% chance of gaining a new power, for each new level attained; augment these chances to simulate deities rewarding truly exceptional service.) Drow of noble blood or name typically gain the ability to use all of their base and mature powers more than once a day. An additional daily use is granted at the end of each decade of life; senior noble drow have practically unlimited use of their powers."
All of the common stuff, while useful, is pretty situational IMO, except for the old Darkness and Levitate abilities. The priest(ess) powers add a bit more, but frankly nothing that they wouldn't have access to through their spells already (though 2nd ed. rules on priest spells and minor/major sphere access might remove some or all of these spells from the Drow priest(ess) spell list. I don't recall at the moment).
Overall, while I'd love to try and play a Drow in a game, I'm so unhappy with the way they were done in 3.5 that this will never happen. I simply find them too bad as a PC race. |
| Eilserus |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 13:05:23
2E Drow of the Underdark notes: "Drow of above fourth level gain "mature powers" of levitate, know alignment, and detect magic." For some reason the books lately have used House Insignia for the most of them, I imagine that was 3E's influence.
Commoner drow can use those powers 1/day. Noble drow basically get a use for every decade of life; senior drow have practically unlimited use of their powers. |
| Diffan |
Posted - 10 Dec 2015 : 05:51:59
I didn't think Levitate was something every Drow can do? I thought it was because of their house insignia and nobility that allowed such powers. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 09 Dec 2015 : 22:57:37
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
Are there any new options for dealing with either issue?
Transfer to 5E and wait for drow to become a class option?
-- George Krashos |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 09 Dec 2015 : 11:07:28
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
I too am very unhappy as to how limited the drow's spell-like abilities seem in 3.x.
Just one example: Why do the Drow have to "waste" a feat in order to levitate (Highborn Drow, Underdark p. 25)
IMO they should be able to use this ability as an inherited ability, similar to their other spell-like abilities (fearie fire, darkness and dancing light) as it was in older editions IIRC.
In AD&D 2 levitate was from 5th level, so it's kind of equivalent.
I have one problem with "Highborn Drow", and that's detect good.
On the upside, there's Improved Levitation making it more useful.
Wasting a feat on that may be too clunky, but it's the usual problem with feats.
Are there any new options for dealing with either issue? |
| warlockco |
Posted - 02 Nov 2006 : 13:54:36
When I ran my Drow Campaign with 3.5E rules, I adjusted XP based on the monster type.
I gave XP based on ECL for Magic-Using creatures (i.e. ones where the Spell Resistance would be an issue).
I gave XP based on Level for traditional creatures (combative types).
Drow are at once more powerful and less powerful. Yes those 2 levels being lost Hurt, but when you play to their advantages, they aren't noticable.
Yes a monk gets Spell Resistance, but that is the only Core Class to do so. A Drow has Spell Resistance from Level 1 on up. Spell Resistance can ruin a DMs plans at times.
You could just as the DM that ran an Epic Campaign were my Drow Priestess walked right though a Prismatic Sphere unharmed, and killed the Wizard that was hiding within it. |
| Drakul |
Posted - 31 Oct 2006 : 18:22:06
Well, look at the powers and abilities the Plane Touched Races have. They are nearly the same as the Drow Abilities in 2E. I still think they have been watered down in 3E and 3.5E |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 31 Oct 2006 : 17:11:09
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
just curious, how is anyone judging "underpowered/overpowered"? Are you using the stock monsters from MMI without any adjustments?
This might be part of the problem, there are different ways at looking at over powered and underpowered.
The game design for 3rd revolved about some basic concepts.
PC party number 4.
Evey PC party regardless of class and race have an equal chance to defeat on average any NPC or party of NPCs This is where CRs come from.
This is what in part lead to LA to keep races in balance.
Another way people look at over powered is setting one PC against another and determining which would win on average.
Not the best way to determine power and levels matter as well deal with either classification.
Often personal experience is used for play testing, which is the worst way to determine what is under or over powered. This because player and DM interaction can result in far different results even if all dice rolls are average. Tactics used by PCs will be different from one party to another, the DM when faced with a judgement call might decide for or against the PCs. Live RP has not yet been totally made computer compatable. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 31 Oct 2006 : 15:00:46
just curious, how is anyone judging "underpowered/overpowered"? Are you using the stock monsters from MMI without any adjustments? |
| Skeptic |
Posted - 31 Oct 2006 : 14:56:41
After running a campaign from level 3 to 15 with a Drow PC, I have to say that they are IHMO underpowered at LA +2. Of course, it was worse because the PC was a Wizard.
SR at 11 + CL is not high enough to be really effective (under what a monk's got as class ability).
The best ability is probably the 120' darkvision, don't try to hide from a Drow.
Darkness 3.5 is useless.
Of course stats bonus are good, but when it cost 2 HD and 2 caster levels(real ones)...
|
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 31 Oct 2006 : 14:33:20
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Without going into the very details of this discussion, for truely I know not evry tid bit of what Drow were able to do in older editions, I still wanted to let you know that I too am very unhappy as to how limited the drow's spell-like abilities seem in 3.x.
Just one example: Why do the Drow have to "waste" a feat in order to levitate (Highborn Drow, Underdark p. 25)
IMO they should be able to use this ability as an inherited ability, similar to their other spell-like abilities (fearie fire, darkness and dancing light) as it was in older editions IIRC.
Ergdusch
It was done to "balance" the race, even with a +2 LA modifier there are people out there that think drow are still too powerful, give them the rest of the Spell-like Abilities, especially for a Female Drow, and you will be pushing towards a +3 or even a +4 LA.
Whatevery their reason - I have to disagree with them. For me it has always been the great challange to face the drow, because of ALL their spell like abilities. The female drow cleric throughing flame strikes at her foes from 30 ft. high... THe stealthy drow fighters hiding in the darkness of the cavern ceiling... and so one. What more do I have to say...
As it happens to be: I still give drows the levitate ablility, as a house rule. 
In a campaign where all the players are playing Drow, giving them ALL the spell-like abilities isn't an issue, but in game where 1 person wants to be a Drow and the rest aren't (especially if they are standard races) that can be overpowering.
Point taken. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 31 Oct 2006 : 13:22:44
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Without going into the very details of this discussion, for truely I know not evry tid bit of what Drow were able to do in older editions, I still wanted to let you know that I too am very unhappy as to how limited the drow's spell-like abilities seem in 3.x.
Just one example: Why do the Drow have to "waste" a feat in order to levitate (Highborn Drow, Underdark p. 25)
IMO they should be able to use this ability as an inherited ability, similar to their other spell-like abilities (fearie fire, darkness and dancing light) as it was in older editions IIRC.
Ergdusch
It was done to "balance" the race, even with a +2 LA modifier there are people out there that think drow are still too powerful, give them the rest of the Spell-like Abilities, especially for a Female Drow, and you will be pushing towards a +3 or even a +4 LA.
Whatevery their reason - I have to disagree with them. For me it has always been the great challange to face the drow, because of ALL their spell like abilities. The female drow cleric throughing flame strikes at her foes from 30 ft. high... THe stealthy drow fighters hiding in the darkness of the cavern ceiling... and so one. What more do I have to say...
As it happens to be: I still give drows the levitate ablility, as a house rule.
In a campaign where all the players are playing Drow, giving them ALL the spell-like abilities isn't an issue, but in game where 1 person wants to be a Drow and the rest aren't (especially if they are standard races) that can be overpowering. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 09:36:21
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Without going into the very details of this discussion, for truely I know not evry tid bit of what Drow were able to do in older editions, I still wanted to let you know that I too am very unhappy as to how limited the drow's spell-like abilities seem in 3.x.
Just one example: Why do the Drow have to "waste" a feat in order to levitate (Highborn Drow, Underdark p. 25)
IMO they should be able to use this ability as an inherited ability, similar to their other spell-like abilities (fearie fire, darkness and dancing light) as it was in older editions IIRC.
Ergdusch
It was done to "balance" the race, even with a +2 LA modifier there are people out there that think drow are still too powerful, give them the rest of the Spell-like Abilities, especially for a Female Drow, and you will be pushing towards a +3 or even a +4 LA.
Whatevery their reason - I have to disagree with them. For me it has always been the great challange to face the drow, because of ALL their spell like abilities. The female drow cleric throughing flame strikes at her foes from 30 ft. high... THe stealthy drow fighters hiding in the darkness of the cavern ceiling... and so one. What more do I have to say...
As it happens to be: I still give drows the levitate ablility, as a house rule. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 28 Oct 2006 : 09:21:44
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Without going into the very details of this discussion, for truely I know not evry tid bit of what Drow were able to do in older editions, I still wanted to let you know that I too am very unhappy as to how limited the drow's spell-like abilities seem in 3.x.
Just one example: Why do the Drow have to "waste" a feat in order to levitate (Highborn Drow, Underdark p. 25)
IMO they should be able to use this ability as an inherited ability, similar to their other spell-like abilities (fearie fire, darkness and dancing light) as it was in older editions IIRC.
Ergdusch
It was done to "balance" the race, even with a +2 LA modifier there are people out there that think drow are still too powerful, give them the rest of the Spell-like Abilities, especially for a Female Drow, and you will be pushing towards a +3 or even a +4 LA. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 22:36:18
Without going into the very details of this discussion, for truely I know not evry tid bit of what Drow were able to do in older editions, I still wanted to let you know that I too am very unhappy as to how limited the drow's spell-like abilities seem in 3.x.
Just one example: Why do the Drow have to "waste" a feat in order to levitate (Highborn Drow, Underdark p. 25)
IMO they should be able to use this ability as an inherited ability, similar to their other spell-like abilities (fearie fire, darkness and dancing light) as it was in older editions IIRC.
Ergdusch
|
| Silvanus79 |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 18:33:35
In my opinion, Drow are fine as they are. Their powers are just fine, and the spell resistance is quite nice. I have had so many Drow in my games that I have outlawed them unless the player comes up with a very good backstory.
On the occasions where I have had Drow in my games, either as PCs or as NPCs, they have had access to things like House Insignias that enabled them to use some of those powers that they lost in the conversion. That seems to work best, and changes the Drow around a little so that players who know the MM entry won't be able to walk in and exploit every weakness. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 12:51:48
Plot & Poison by Green Ronin Publishing, has lots of feats to tweak a Drow's spell-like abilities. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 01:50:55
I don't have a problem envisioning that different drow may have developed different "darkness" based powers, and I usually give them Cloak of Shadows from the Miniatures Handbook (as suggested in that book), which just cloaks them in shadows that they can see through and gives their opponents a 20% miss chance. Its a "self" spell only in this case, but it doesn't hinder them or their allies like darkness does.
Its something that could definately bare some looking into, but no darkness power really does what it did in second edition or first for that matter. I wonder if this is something that might come up in next year's Drow of the Underdark supplement. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 00:54:16
Oh Darkness as range spell in 2nd
"Darkness, 15' Radius
(Alteration)
Range: 10 yds./level Components: V, S, M
Duration: 1 turn + 1 rd./level Casting Time: 2
Area of Effect: 15-ft. radius Saving Throw: None
This spell causes total, impenetrable darkness in the area of effect. Infravision is useless. Neither normal nor magical light works unless a light or continual light spell is used. In the former event, the darkness spell is negated by the light spell, and vice versa." |
| Drakul |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 00:34:26
quote:
Originally posted by Skeptic
Are you sure they could do as in the RAS novels in 2E ?
Think back when Drizzt was sailing with Catti-Brie in the Sea Sprite and they engaged an enemy ship that had a wizard that was about to take cover. Drizzt marked him with the Darkness spell without touchin him or throwin somethin at him. I think that should be reinstated. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 27 Oct 2006 : 00:27:55
Well SKR appears to believe that it is broken as currently written.
A Drow in total darkness can see 120 feet for attack purposes. Using a globe the Drow gets a 20 percent miss chance and can not see the 120 foot totaly, darkvision is disabled.
For a non darkvision creature, being in the dark is as blinded (50 percent miss chance), however if they are lucky enough to enter a globe of darkness they can see better (getting the same 20 percent miss chance that the foolish Drow that cast it gets).
Of course in non dark situations there is some greater value to the globe, it can negate (for Drow) the light penality, however it does not provide any other combat advantage.
There also is the bug, IMO, that higher level light spells ignore drakness as oposed to dispelling it. Darkness dispells lower light spells. The implimentation appears flawed to me. |
| Skeptic |
Posted - 26 Oct 2006 : 23:24:14
Are you sure they could do as in the RAS novels in 2E ? |
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