| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Neriandal Freit |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 20:51:04
Alright, off question, but, how large would you say a 10,000g value diamond be?
Trying to figure out a fair size for something, and it involed the 10k Diamond ;) |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wrigley |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 15:24:10
In my realms my money economy is such: Copper is coin of poor and they pay mostly with them for things they need daily. Silver is coin of middle class and Gold coin is high class expense for daily needs. Tradebars and gems are a way to keep large sum of money on person so they start at 20gp and go higer. There are cheaper gems but they are not considered for this purpose and are mainly used for jewels, clothing and other garments enrichment.
Tradebars are for lower amounts usualy in form of 20/50/100gp value, gems are usualy from 50gp to 5000gp depending on their quality. It is not so rare to find a 2000gp gem in treasury of a noble or businessman. Price is based on purity, size and shape (cut/fitting). In regards to their size all of those are half a fingerbone and larger as it is highly impractical to transport smaller ones (easy to loose). So 10000gp gem would be large crown stile piece that you will not miss wit size of the fist. For any larger sums they use magic items in a way RL uses antiquities. All forms of payment beyond tradebars are prone to change of price based on location you use them - +-20% for gems and possible no-buyer situation for others.
In Realms there are whole nations living underground using gems as currency and there is a whole elemental plane of earth to fill it with gems so I think there should be much more gems than in RL. For that RL equivalent I use 1gp=40USD, a trade ship or a city house is about 10000gp. It is also a price for permanent magical item of some power (sword +2/boots of elvenkind). |
| Icelander |
Posted - 24 Oct 2019 : 13:13:18
Diamond price per carat, in the real world, ranges from about $2,000 to $2,650,000 for gem quality stones (if we include flawed or industrial grade, we can get down to very low prices per carat).
That means that no matter what metric we use to assign the relative value between gold pieces and modern dollars, a 10,000 gp diamond can be as small as we like, as long as it has whatever qualities drive up gemstone values. In a fantasy world, those qualities might (indeed, almost must) include magical potency, as a material component or the basis for enchantments.
An argument might be made that a Realms gold piece is somewhere between $1 to $100, depending on whether we use values for big-ticket items like houses or ships, medium ones like arms and armour or inexpensive ones, like flour or bread, as our basis for comparison.
In my campaign, I assume $10 = 1 gp for game mechanical purposes (I use GURPS, where $ is used for beginning Wealth and other mechanical purposes), but individual prices in the Realms vary a lot from the real world and some things are much cheaper (common foodstuffs) than they were on medieval Earth.
Of course, there is no compelling reason for diamond prices to be at a certain level in any given world, given that in reality, the demand for them is almost entirely fashion-driven and they are not nearly as scarce as the prices would have you believe.
As a rule of thumb, subject to enormous variations by color, cut, clarity and whatever qualities affect value in a magical world, I'd say that a rough price for a gem-quality diamond is 1,000 gp per carat.
That means that a 10,000 gp diamond would weigh 10 carats (2 grams) or less than a tenth of an ounce. It wouldn't resemble a golf ball or a tennis ball, it would resemble a small pebble. Only in cartoons are valuable gemstones fist-sized, in reality, such stones are rarely of the quality necessary to be worth much per carat and, if they are of any quality at all, are worth much more than the equivalent of 10,000 gp (which is less than a common trade ship), they are worth literal kings' ransoms. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 21 Oct 2006 : 00:39:26
It's more exciting to find chests of gold than copper. So the original D&D economic system was based on the idea that there's Gold Rush-style inflation caused by the delving of the local mega-dungeon (prototypically, Greyhawk Castle). The gold-based economy then became a norm of D&D even far away from the kind of situation which causes it. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 04:49:11
Bug alert:
This in active topics indicate this is one page with last post made by Eytan Bernstein, however there are an additional two posts made that appear on page two of this scroll. There is an overview error or index error of some kind. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 19 Oct 2006 : 04:41:44
I've always had trouble keeping gem sizes straight in my mind when reading fiction. It's the same with coins; for some reason my mind always wants them to be larger than silver dollars and maybe an eighth of an inch thick when they were actually smaller than a US quarter. With gems, I always want to go for golf ball sized or larger, something that's easy to see in the mind's eye, when they should really be tiny (side note: this should make finding gems in a dragon's horde, and making sure you don't leave any on the cavern floor, quite a challenge).
And on the opposite extreme, I remember in Ruins of Undermountain the PC's can find a cut emerald the size of a man's head. I've always wanted to spring that on my players, just to see what happens, but never have. |
| Beirnadri Magranth |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 23:16:26
Can you give us any more details? It sounds interesting. |
| EytanBernstein |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 22:02:37
You guys might like a book I'm working on that should be out later this year or early next year. It deals with a lot of these questions. (not for WotC). |
| Beirnadri Magranth |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 21:35:56
The wikipedia site on cullinan isn't very good. It' doesn't really cite a lot of what it's talking about and some things i think are incorrect. People should check out The Golden Jubilee diamond tho since its hardly known to be the largest diamond.... and its a beautiful topaz color (brownish gold). Thats the gem I was saying was bought for the Kind of Thailand. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 18:09:40
quote:
Originally posted by Beirnadri Magranth
the cullinan would be a huge brooch... even if it claims to be that size... its much larger than ordinary brooches.
I don't know how big it really is...I was lloking for some diamond lore and I just got the brooch fact from Wikipedia
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| Beirnadri Magranth |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 17:49:32
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I think a tennis ball is too big...
from what I understand the Cullinan Diamond (second largest polished diamond in the world) is over 530 carats and can be worn as a brooch
the cullinan would be a huge brooch... even if it claims to be that size... its much larger than ordinary brooches. |
| Ergdusch |
Posted - 18 Oct 2006 : 12:36:52
quote:
Originally posted by Neriandal Freit
See, I was thinking more palm size (IE: Teniis Ball) rather then it being the size of a golf ball considering the power it contains..
My shot at something like that would be about the size of a childs fist, so tennis ball, yes! |
| Beirnadri Magranth |
Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 23:23:06
not at all!
a high quality 2 carat diamond can range beyond 10000 current us dollars. Two carats is only slightly larger than a typical wedding ring diamond. 10,000gp for mundane items seems to be vaguely similar to 20million$. Again for 10,000gp I would say you could get a medium-low quality diamond that is size of two watch heads. A golfball is about 20carats more than what you could probably get.
Diamonds roughly golfball sized and larger are called Popular of Famous diamonds in the world of gemology. They make up the stones in crown jewels, the stones worn by nobility and the worn by the most extreme of the rich and famous. Stones for 10,000gp are the stones that fall just under that radar. They are unusually large but they are not very big and not very clear.
Diamonds (not necessarily all gems are graded by the 4 "C's"
Color- diamonds are preferred to be colorless. The presence of different elements in the stone are what colors the diamond. A "fancy" diamond is one whose color is an extreme. These types of diamonds are very very rare. The Hope Diamond is a good example of this. The color of a fancy diamond must be deep otherwise it is seem as a murky colorless. Diamonds are preferred to be colorles, blue or gold. Other colors (such as the rarest black/brown) are usually undesirable.
Beauty of a colorless diamond isnt arbitrary it is also defined by luminescence... or how much it refracts a blue light.
Cut- The crystallographics and geometry of a cut determine the amount of light refracted by the diamond. A cut should work around natural inclusions (spots) and should work with the natural shape of the diamond found in the rough. Typical cuts are - emerald, princess, brilliance, fancy (assorted: teardrops, hearts etc.), rose, mazarin. Wikipedia has a good page about the history of cuts (ones that you might find in Faerun with their mideval technology.
Clarity- Diamonds ideally should have no flaws. Flaws are graded based on where in the gem they are located and how visible they are. How many there are and the severity of those present.
Diamonds should look perfect. (note: for colored gemstones there are always small flaws)
Carat- This is often deemed the most important 'C' by people not in the industry. Carat (named after the carob seed for its reliable weight at a small scale) should normally be one of the last characteristics evaluated. a tiny perfect diamond is more valuable than a HUGE diamond that is flawed, horribly cut, murky and reddish in color. The largest recorded diamond was 3,000 somehting carats. it was cut into two gemstone now on the british royal crown jewels. One of the most precious diamonds, however, is the diamond belonging to the king of thailand. He purchased a massive beautiful golden diamonf of roughly 500 carats (larger than the cullinan diamonds by 60 or so carats). In order to not upset the public at such a large purchase, the king claimed it was a topaz.
Anyway, my whole point in that brief synopsis is that not only is price not a good indicator of size but that diamonds are ALMOST NEVER fist sized... only a handful (forgive the pun) of diamonds are.
.: any number of diamonds could be worth 10kgp. Diamonds the size of the Hope Diamond that are ugly as **** could be 10kgp and diamonds that are a measley 1 carat could be 10kgp all depending on the clarity, color and lastly cut (which make up the quality)
-beir |
| Neriandal Freit |
Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 22:40:15
See, thats what I was learning towards too Wander. Tho I keep leaning towards Golfball to Palmsize is most common for 10k diamonds. |
| Wandering_mage |
Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 22:30:22
Anybody here ever bought a wedding ring? Well if you do your research you will find that quality and size can be related sometimes and sometimes far away from being in the same diamond. So with that said I would say any size can be transfered to a diamond of whatever value with a small amount for error. Check out some websites for more info. Then again that is based on real world diamond values.  |
| Victor_ograygor |
Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 22:22:09
A half tennis ball size... Yes 10,000g value diamond
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| Haman |
Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 20:48:35
Heh, I actually used Diamonds of that worth in one of my campaigns...they were the focal component for a monster I had made up ("Ice Golem"). When my players asked what the diamond looked like and how big, I came across the same problem you did, I was clueless.
I finally settled on the size and shape of a common D10. Maybe it's not precise, and I have my value/worth/reality ideals all skewed, but its what I went with. |
| Silvanus79 |
Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 18:03:12
I have found that trying to do an economic system in which there is a huge disparity between commoners and adventurers just doesn't work. After all, adventureres with their free spending ways unbalance the economies of villages way too easily to deal with easily. In my games, I pretty much use barter and trade, i.e. peasant A needs bread, and so trades a bushel of grapes from his vineyard to peasant B, and so on. Only merchants and nobles in my games really use money. And it makes money all the more valuable to commoners. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 17:07:25
No scale of economey works in FR, trying to model after real life just does not work.
One could take out a PC and indeed get enough goods and coins to feed a village. However because it is a fantsy world this does not often occur. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 15:54:14
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
Perhaps. I meant skewed in the sense that there is no direct formula between faerun gold and real world cash. Also the way a gold piece is a great deal for a commoner, but yet level 1 adventurers even can be fairly free with squandering a gold piece or two.
That is what I have never liked about the typical adventure...it's obvious that the silver piece is the "common man's" coin, like a dollar and the gold piece is like a $20 bill...and yet in most adventures it is the GP that is the most commonly found coin, even in low level adventures...
I remember reading somewhere that if you add up the worth of all the arms, armour and equipment of a Lv 3 adventurer you would have more wealth than the value of a whole hobby farm...including the land, home and livestock
I can easily imagine a horde of dirty-nailed farmers jumping a low-level adventuring party to sell their equipment to feed their community for the winter  |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 15:47:56
Perhaps. I meant skewed in the sense that there is no direct formula between faerun gold and real world cash. Also the way a gold piece is a great deal for a commoner, but yet level 1 adventurers even can be fairly free with squandering a gold piece or two. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 15:39:16
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
Wealth is kinda skewed in the realms, 10k gp is not like £10k. Look at it this way, a gold piece can buy a dagger, which would be say £20 here for a decent one. Compare prices of food (5sp for a good meal), animals (30gp will get you a pony), a cab (3sp for 10 miles) etc.
I'd say your 10k gp would be more like £300k here (or $ if you prefer) as a very rough guide
I agree but I don't think it is skewed as much as it's about supply, availability and demand...
|
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 15:35:51
quote:
Originally posted by Neriandal Freit
Naw not at the moment, I'm jsut seeking a good rough, real-world way (because it's likely our 10k is there 10k) of basing what a ours is, so I can get a rough estimate what these fashioned boxes are.
Wealth is kinda skewed in the realms, 10k gp is not like £10k. Look at it this way, a gold piece can buy a dagger, which would be say £20 here for a decent one. Compare prices of food (5sp for a good meal), animals (30gp will get you a pony), a cab (3sp for 10 miles) etc.
I'd say your 10k gp would be more like £300k here (or $ if you prefer) as a very rough guide |
| tauster |
Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 13:04:16
Beirnadri Magranth; I would LOVE to get a closer look at rare stones & pearls!
everything about size, quality, cuts, etc... plus whatever you think is an important issue in the game. |
| Neriandal Freit |
Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 01:43:36
Naw not at the moment, I'm jsut seeking a good rough, real-world way (because it's likely our 10k is there 10k) of basing what a ours is, so I can get a rough estimate what these fashioned boxes are. |
| Beirnadri Magranth |
Posted - 17 Oct 2006 : 01:25:44
The three largest diamonds in the world are approximately 500 carats. they are a little larger than fist size. They are PRICELESS. a 10kgp diamond would probably be anywhere from 20 to 40carats. thats approximately the size of two watch faces (obscure meter, i know) anyway... yeah prices vary to the extreme based on quality. I studied jewelry (metals and stones) as part of a fashion major that i never completed so if you have any questions please ask. I can go into depth about diamonds and other rare stones. (pearls etc included) |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 21:36:46
I think a tennis ball is too big...
from what I understand the Cullinan Diamond (second largest polished diamond in the world) is over 530 carats and can be worn as a brooch |
| Neriandal Freit |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 21:25:38
See, I was thinking more palm size (IE: Teniis Ball) rather then it being the size of a golf ball considering the power it contains.. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 21:08:18
quote:
Originally posted by Neriandal Freit
(Nice quick reply too ;), rarely happens :P)
yeah, sometimes at work I multi-task   |
| Kaladorm |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 20:59:57
I'd say a gem (especially a valuable one) that was enough to attract serious attention would be one that can be firmly gripped in the palm, say tennis ball size.
For something as valuble as a diamond, comparing to earth even on the size of golf ball would be something special |
| Neriandal Freit |
Posted - 16 Oct 2006 : 20:58:12
That doesn't sound to bad of a guesstimate. I would suspect the same, though obviously having a hard time to figure out the size of the box.
Yeah that sounds like a fair size unless anyone else has better guesstimate?
(Nice quick reply too ;), rarely happens :P) |
