| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Na-Gang |
Posted - 06 Oct 2006 : 11:20:31
This is what I know:
When a person dies in the Realms, their spirit/soul/whatever goes to the Fugue Plane where they either :
(a) wait for a representative of their patron deity to lead them to their patron’s plane, or
(b) remain trapped for all eternity in the wall of souls in Kelemvor’s realm if they have no patron, or
(c) are judged by Kelemvor, Jergal, or agents thereof for betrayal and possible other transgressions against patrons.
Additionally:
The Baatezu have a deal with Kelemvor that they can bargain with the souls of group (a) to become Lemures and possibly advance up their ranks in the Blood War – this option might be preferable to souls who worship evil deities, who might find their ‘afterlife’ on their patron’s planes less than enjoyable.
The Tanar’ri occasionally rip souls from the wall of souls and collect the souls of group (b) to become Dretches and possibly advance up their ranks in the Blood War
However, I have some questions and I'd appreciate you guys' thoughts, ideas and pointers to Canon lore on the follow:
Regarding group (a)
1. When these souls reach their deity’s home plane, what happens? Are they given homes and become ‘citizens’ there? Do they become divine agents like Planetars or Solars? I assume it will vary from deity to deity and plane to plane, but what is likely to happen to the souls of a good patron?
2. In this ‘afterlife’ I assume these souls gain the Outsider subtype. This would mean they can be killed on their home plane which is now the plane of their deity where they reside, but not on other planes. So, if a ‘soul’ is killed in the afterlife (on it’s patron’s plane) is it forever destroyed?
3. Would such souls retain character levels as before? If so, what is to stop a dead wizard with enough levels from returning to the Prime Material Plane and continuing his former life? In essence (if he were treated an Outsider) he’d be all but immortal on the Prime Material…
Regarding group (c)
4. What punishments are likely to be levelled against these souls? What befalls someone who has betrayed their patron deity?
5. Is it possible that such souls can complete their period of punishment and be allowed to travel to their patron’s home plane (depending on the patron’s wishes of course), or do they remain in Kelemvor’s realm for all eternity?
Thanks!
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| 2 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 07 Oct 2006 : 10:33:15
When a soul reaches the Fugue Plane, it incarnates as a creature called a "petitioner". See Manual of the Planes p.199 for petitioner stats. It does indeed have the type "outsider".
On the Fugue Plane, a petitioner just has the base stats of that template. Once it is delivered to its final afterlife, it adopts any special qualities and extra abilities inherent to the petitioners of that plane or to that god's realm. Such qualities and abilities vary quite a bit from plane to plane. A god may overide or change such qualities in one of his petitioners as he sees fit. These special qualities are listed in the Players Guide to Faerûn in the section for each plane.
Manual of the Planes says that Outsiders and Elementals tend to meld with their native plane upon their death, and so do not usually become petitioners, however an outsider may be called back from the dead by their god or by certain spells.
The planes of Clangor and Nishrek both have a property that resurrects those killed in battle every morning, so petitioners of those planes are specifically brought back from the dead each day. However, this does not appear to be the default of any other plane.
Petitioners lose all memory of their previous lives unless allowed to retain it by their god under special circumstances. They lose all skills, feats, class levels, supernatural abilities, spell-like abilities, saves and attack bonuses. But can keep the exceptional abilities of the base creature.
You ask also what's to stop the petitioner from returning to the Material Plane and resuming his life? In addition to losing their memories and stats as listed above, they gain a number of extra qualities and abilities, one of which is called "Planar Commitment."
Planar commitment means a petitioner cannot leave its native home plane. If it tries (or someone attempts to force it) to leave by means of a spell or portal, it is teleported 100 miles away in a random direction. It cannot leave.
Of course, planar commitment can be overidden or removed by a petitioner's patron god, and some petitioner forms do not have planar commitment (including lemures, manes and larva, which all specifically have a special quality called "no planar commitment"). Presumably there are spells and magic items that also allow a petitioner to overide, suppress or reassign their planar commitment, although such spells and items have not appeared yet in the books (so far as I am aware.)
As for punishments for the False in Kelemvor's city of the dead, we are told punishments range from light duty around the city to tortures so extreme as to make the most callous demon blush. Kelemvor's own faithful presumably hold the leadership and supervisory positions in the city, so the False would likely do the manual labor and lowly jobs, maybe even low-level administrative/bureaucratic work.
As for the people who are punished with varying degrees of torture, it is hard to say if it endures forever. We have not been told that I know of. The length of punishment may be part of the sentence. In some cases it may very well be permanent. Kelemvor's sentence could conceivably include an "out" for the petitioner. It might be worded such that a petitioner would be tortured "until such time as he repents to the satisfaction of his god". I don't know if he allows for such outs or not, but he might. We simply do not know if redemption or rehabilitation is considered or provided for in Kelemvor's punishments.
Even if the torture or punishment is indefinite, it is likely that it still does not last forever. Even on the other outer planes, petitioners do not live forever. At some point they eventually merge with the plane itself, or with their god. We don't know how long it takes, from a few years to a few centuries, to millenia, but eventually it does happen.
I assume that even on the Fugue Plane, that after some amount of time a petitioner, even one of the False, will simply merge with the Fugue Plane itself. We are told this is true of the souls in the Wall. We know their egos break down over time, assisted by the mold in the mortar of the Wall.
Since this is true for the Faithless, there is no reason it should not also be true for the False. I doubt very seriously that even Kelemvor can prevent a soul from going to its final rest eventually. For a time perhaps, but not forever. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 06 Oct 2006 : 14:03:22
I don't have my 3E material here...so I can only tell you what I remember (mostly taken out of 2E Planescape) but I think most of it still applies, even with the 3E planar change
quote:
Regarding group (a)
1. When these souls reach their deity’s home plane, what happens? Are they given homes and become ‘citizens’ there? Do they become divine agents like Planetars or Solars? I assume it will vary from deity to deity and plane to plane, but what is likely to happen to the souls of a good patron?
The way it used to work was when you died your soul passed through the Astral Plane into the outer planes...your thoughts and memories were stripped away and left drifting in the Astral Plane and your soul was “reborn” as a petitioner in your god’s realm or if you were not pious enough on the Outer Plane closest to your alignment, thus becoming “citizens of that realm or plane. If you were just an “average” petitioner you would slowly “merge” into your god or plane’s being, becoming one with your god/plane. But if you were exceptional you could evolve into a true native of the plane and become a celestial or fiend (dependent on your alignment, and I can’t remember but Yugoloths may be the exception to that). Thus you could die a lowly peasant but strong in your beliefs, be reborn on your plane and over millennia evolve into a solar or pit fiend.
Also, if you were truly deserving, your god could “collect” your thoughts and memories from the Astral Plane and when you are reborn you would still remember your past life. ALSO if you are raised/resurrected, no matter how long you were a petitioner, you are not supposed to remember any of your experiences as a petitioner...
Finally I’m not sure how it works when elves “leave for Arvanador” (like the jedi merging into the Force?)
quote:
2. In this ‘afterlife’ I assume these souls gain the Outsider subtype. This would mean they can be killed on their home plane which is now the plane of their deity where they reside, but not on other planes. So, if a ‘soul’ is killed in the afterlife (on it’s patron’s plane) is it forever destroyed?
Yes it is, except on the CG(N) plane of Ysgard and if you are in the dwarf god Clangeddin’s [sp?] army, where if you died bravely, you were reborn that night (or next day, can’t remember). It has always been if you die on your home plane you are gone for good...I’m not sure if you die in your God’s realm and you are his petitioner...your god may be able to resurrect you.
quote:
3. Would such souls retain character levels as before? If so, what is to stop a dead wizard with enough levels from returning to the Prime Material Plane and continuing his former life? In essence (if he were treated an Outsider) he’d be all but immortal on the Prime Material…
only if they were able to keep their memories...and then they would be in complete and utter service of their god...
quote:
Regarding group (c)
4. What punishments are likely to be levelled against these souls? What befalls someone who has betrayed their patron deity?
I can’t remember everything that goes with being Faithless, False (what is the third one?) but it has been described in Prince of Lies and I think in the FRCS hardcover book.
quote:
5. Is it possible that such souls can complete their period of punishment and be allowed to travel to their patron’s home plane (depending on the patron’s wishes of course), or do they remain in Kelemvor’s realm for all eternity?
I think these punishments are eternal (no end thus no “period of punishment”) but circumstances can change the sentencing (i.e. another god cutting a real with Kelemvor)
Hope it helps...I’m still absorbing all of the 3E Realms cosmology rules myself...I'm sure someone else can fill in the holes I left and make the needed corrections  
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