| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Thorin Stoutdrinker |
Posted - 03 Apr 2003 : 13:33:51
Well i'm gonna include this city in my campaign but don't now nothing about it, is there any source where I can find info about this city other then the novels. I would love it if someone could point me to a source or tell me something about it. It won't be used much in the campaign so i only need basic info about how it looks and the attitudes of the people and such. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 02 May 2003 : 14:36:20
Greetings,
lowtech said -
quote:
That was part of my point. Lolth encouraged infighting to strengthen individual Drow (also because she's a sick bitch who likes to make people suffer, but anyway...)but she made sure that the chaos was contained so that the drow wouldn't destroy themselves from within so regularly. That managed chaos is what led to individual drow (and their short-lived alliances) becoming so powerful. On the whole, the dominion of the Drow race slowly expands...
I see.
So basically what you mean here is -  controlled chaos = power.
Perhaps.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms lore needs
|
| Mournblade |
Posted - 30 Apr 2003 : 22:38:37
quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
I do however like to compare the chaotic nature of Drow civilisation with the nature of chaos itself. In that, even in a totally chaotic and random closed system, their is some semblance of order which the forces of nature must adhere to. So even with this total devotion to the principles of chaos in which the Drow believe, there still pertains a semblance of eternal order which was the religion of Lolth. Now that it is gone, the Drow civilisation has nothing to keep the forces of entropy in check, and their society crumbles from within, as is the case demonstrated by the downfall of Ched Nasad.
That was part of my point. Lolth encouraged infighting to strengthen individual Drow (also because she's a sick bitch who likes to make people suffer, but anyway...)but she made sure that the chaos was contained so that the drow wouldn't destroy themselves from within so regularly. That managed chaos is what led to individual drow (and their short-lived alliances) becoming so powerful. On the whole, the dominion of the Drow race slowly expands...
I fail to see how this shows drow have become so powerful.
But like Sage said.. WHATEVER.
|
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 30 Apr 2003 : 21:15:03
Now, lowtech, you use the phrase "controlled chaos" which is in of itself a contradiction. You really cannot control choas, that's really an impossibility, that's why it's chaos. However, beyond that, Drow dominion has done anything but spread. More cities have fallen in the last millennia than have been built, and that was before Lolth went silent. But, whatever. |
| lowtech |
Posted - 30 Apr 2003 : 16:48:46
quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
I do however like to compare the chaotic nature of Drow civilisation with the nature of chaos itself. In that, even in a totally chaotic and random closed system, their is some semblance of order which the forces of nature must adhere to. So even with this total devotion to the principles of chaos in which the Drow believe, there still pertains a semblance of eternal order which was the religion of Lolth. Now that it is gone, the Drow civilisation has nothing to keep the forces of entropy in check, and their society crumbles from within, as is the case demonstrated by the downfall of Ched Nasad.
That was part of my point. Lolth encouraged infighting to strengthen individual Drow (also because she's a sick bitch who likes to make people suffer, but anyway...)but she made sure that the chaos was contained so that the drow wouldn't destroy themselves from within so regularly. That managed chaos is what led to individual drow (and their short-lived alliances) becoming so powerful. On the whole, the dominion of the Drow race slowly expands... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Apr 2003 : 04:01:40
Greetings,
Thanks mournblade94.
I have always seen the Drow as the personification of true Chaos itself. I think that is part of the attraction that fans have towards the Drow.
|
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 29 Apr 2003 : 22:19:19
quote:
Originally posted by mournblade94:
I guess if a butterfly flaps its wings in Beijing than it CAN affect the weather in Ched Nasad...
Wow, I wondered how long it would take someone to come up with that one. Anyways...
|
| Mournblade |
Posted - 29 Apr 2003 : 21:54:09
quote:
Originally posted by Sage of Perth
Greetings,
Edain Shadowstar said -
quote:
Well, they can't do that if they are always at war amongst themselves, now can they? As I, and others, above stated, the Drow are their own worst enemy. They can't unite, and that is going to destroy them and keep them from conquoring the Underdark.
I agree. To me that has always been the Drow's major weakness. As is always the case with such twisted societies, evil turns in upon itself. In fact, considering the chaotic nature of the Dark Elves it is a wonder why the fall of their cities and societies doesn't happen more often.
I do however like to compare the chaotic nature of Drow civilisation with the nature of chaos itself. In that, even in a totally chaotic and random closed system, their is some semblance of order which the forces of nature must adhere to. So even with this total devotion to the principles of chaos in which the Drow believe, there still pertains a semblance of eternal order which was the religion of Lolth. Now that it is gone, the Drow civilisation has nothing to keep the forces of entropy in check, and their society crumbles from within, as is the case demonstrated by the downfall of Ched Nasad.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms lore needs
Wow sage that is pretty good. I never thought to apply CHaos Theory to THIS matter AWESOME! I guess if a butterfly flaps its wings in Beijing than it CAN affect the weather in CHed Nasad...
Nice point!
|
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 29 Apr 2003 : 05:41:50
Interesting that you could find a way to inject part of Choas Theory into the Drow culture, Sage. But, your point about there actually existing order in chaos is a valid one. The order isn't really one that you can look, I think, so it's easily overlooked. It's rather ironic that evne Drow Elves, the self-proclaimed children of Choas, would fall to utter pieces after being exposed to true chaos. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 Apr 2003 : 04:13:11
Greetings,
Edain Shadowstar said -
quote:
Well, they can't do that if they are always at war amongst themselves, now can they? As I, and others, above stated, the Drow are their own worst enemy. They can't unite, and that is going to destroy them and keep them from conquoring the Underdark.
I agree. To me that has always been the Drow's major weakness. As is always the case with such twisted societies, evil turns in upon itself. In fact, considering the chaotic nature of the Dark Elves it is a wonder why the fall of their cities and societies doesn't happen more often.
I do however like to compare the chaotic nature of Drow civilisation with the nature of chaos itself. In that, even in a totally chaotic and random closed system, their is some semblance of order which the forces of nature must adhere to. So even with this total devotion to the principles of chaos in which the Drow believe, there still pertains a semblance of eternal order which was the religion of Lolth. Now that it is gone, the Drow civilisation has nothing to keep the forces of entropy in check, and their society crumbles from within, as is the case demonstrated by the downfall of Ched Nasad.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms lore needs
|
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 29 Apr 2003 : 00:56:17
mournblade is dead on. The downfall of Ched Nasad, and the near downfall of Menzoberranzan, were results of the inability of the Nobles to unite. It is mentioned all the Drow need to do is conquor the area around them. Well, they can't do that if they are always at war amongst themselves, now can they? As I, and others, above stated, the Drow are their own worst enemy. They can't unite, and that is going to destroy them and keep them from conquoring the Underdark. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 28 Apr 2003 : 23:43:05
quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
The Drow don't have to unite, they just have to dominate their own area. If all drow settlements do that, they can rule the underdark in the same way that Greek city-states once controlled their domain. If Lolth percieves an organized threat against the whole race, she can order her followers to adhere to a truce for the duration of the conflict (like she ordered the Drow of Menzo to put aside their infighting for a time). Their inability to form stable alliances might be a weakness, but that weakness is also the source of their strengths.
I'm not quite sure how that can be perceived as strength. It was because of their inability to make stable alliances with other NOBLE houses that caused Ched Nasad to fall. The drow cities are also spread far out,l and it gives alot of oppurtunity for Illithids, Duergar, and others to wreak havoc on them.
|
| lowtech |
Posted - 28 Apr 2003 : 17:50:05
The Drow don't have to unite, they just have to dominate their own area. If all drow settlements do that, they can rule the underdark in the same way that Greek city-states once controlled their domain. If Lolth percieves an organized threat against the whole race, she can order her followers to adhere to a truce for the duration of the conflict (like she ordered the Drow of Menzo to put aside their infighting for a time). Their inability to form stable alliances might be a weakness, but that weakness is also the source of their strengths. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 28 Apr 2003 : 03:31:58
quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
quote:
Originally posted by Eternal_Dreadlord:
Bane did come back with a new attitude about his people's in-fighting.
The change in his followings behavior wasn't really major change in his dogma, teachings, and beliefs. To best illustrate this, let's look at Bane's alignment, Lawful Evil. He was Lawful Evil in 2e, and he's Lawful Evil in 3e. Now, under Lawful Evil the general idea is that you are utterly self-serving within the confines of the establishment. It's doesn't exclude infighting or backstabbing, nor does it exclude it. Bane is the god fo tyrants. The weaker the tyrants who serve him, the more infighting. The more powerful, the less infighting. It wasn't a intrinsical change in dogma, since his alignment and portfolio makes room for unity and disunity, based on the power of the one in the leadership role. Lolth is an utterly Chaotic Evil deity. For her to switch to a belief system based on unity is a switch in alignment for her, and the Drow Elves. Chaotic Evil acts in direct opposition to unity, in any form. The Drow will destroy anyone who gets in there way, regardless of established laws or hierarchy. It's a much different idea. All Bane had to do to stabilize his chruch was increase the power of it's rulers, that way the could keep their followers in line. Lolth would have to change her mindset and that of all her followers, which is switch that no deity has done before..except Cyric, and he went insane so that doesn't even begin to compare.
That is a very good point Edain. Bane's worshippers are the type to unite, where LLoth's are not. Like I said earlier, The drow really don't pose a threat to the surface world. But if Dark Elves WERE able to unite, they would be a force to recon with. But fortunatley they are Chaotic, and that is the greatest weapon aagainst them.
|
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 23:28:23
quote:
Originally posted by Eternal_Dreadlord:
Bane did come back with a new attitude about his people's in-fighting.
The change in his followings behavior wasn't really major change in his dogma, teachings, and beliefs. To best illustrate this, let's look at Bane's alignment, Lawful Evil. He was Lawful Evil in 2e, and he's Lawful Evil in 3e. Now, under Lawful Evil the general idea is that you are utterly self-serving within the confines of the establishment. It's doesn't exclude infighting or backstabbing, nor does it exclude it. Bane is the god fo tyrants. The weaker the tyrants who serve him, the more infighting. The more powerful, the less infighting. It wasn't a intrinsical change in dogma, since his alignment and portfolio makes room for unity and disunity, based on the power of the one in the leadership role. Lolth is an utterly Chaotic Evil deity. For her to switch to a belief system based on unity is a switch in alignment for her, and the Drow Elves. Chaotic Evil acts in direct opposition to unity, in any form. The Drow will destroy anyone who gets in there way, regardless of established laws or hierarchy. It's a much different idea. All Bane had to do to stabilize his chruch was increase the power of it's rulers, that way the could keep their followers in line. Lolth would have to change her mindset and that of all her followers, which is switch that no deity has done before..except Cyric, and he went insane so that doesn't even begin to compare. |
| Eternal_Dreadlord |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 23:04:27
Bane did come back with a new attitude about his people's in-fighting.
I don't see why Lolth couldn't, which could be incredibly dangerous. |
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 22:57:36
quote:
Originally posted by mournblade94:
...Lloth is a 1st ed lesser deity and 3e intermediate deity...
Firstly, you're right on mournblade. I just checked Demihuman Deities from 2e and Faiths and Pantheons for 3e and in both she's a intermediate deity, mea culpa.
quote:
Originally posted by mournblade94:
...she is seeking power in another way, and so her people must suffer for now.
That was always my assumption, that she was trying to get power elsewhere, and that the only role that the Drow play is that, (a) they have to suffer, and (b) that if she fails at her metamorphosis she's screwed because she's lost the Drow. I always got the impression she was becoming something else to gains divine power from a new source, the only problem is, what source? As I understand it there are very few way except through worship for a deity to gain power these days. Whatever Lolth is up to it's a mystery to me.
quote:
Originally posted by mournblade94:
My worry is the Drow are going to come back EVEN more powerful than before.
You know, I really don't see this as a threat. The only way the Drow can become truely dangerous is for them to unite, which is unlikely for a couple reasons, (a) it's against there nature, 9B) it's against Lolth's nature and teachings, and (c) even if Lolth changed her nature (which seems unlikely, but you never know), it will still be in opposition to everything most Drow Elves have been taught since birth. Even if they unite and start attacking say the surface, they are outnumbered and outgunned. If the surface kingdoms have proven anything lately, it's that no matter how much they hate each other they will team up to defeat a common foe. Could they possibly take over much of the Underdark? Maybe. You have to remember there are many species in the Underdark more powerful than the Drow, but aren't nearly as aggressive. Mind Flayers are a fairly good example. They live in small colonies of a few hundred fellow flayers; they don't care about conquest, just having enough slaves to serve then, their Elder Brain, and to experiment with. They aren't the most conquest minded species, but if you piss em' off a few hundred can be a nighmare to do battle with. Even united the Drow have a tough job conquoring the Underdark, and a much, much, much tougher one trying to take any part of the surface, I just don't see em' as overly threatening united, as compared to divided.
|
| Mournblade |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 22:15:04
Lloth is a 1st ed lesser deity and 3e intermediate deity Divine Rank 15. In the beginning of the novels they have a prologues which HINT that lloth is abandoning her worshippers to undergo a metamorphosis into an even greater power. What Edain said above is true, that gods will no longer let their worshippers have at each other, but I think it is ALSO exactly what Edain suggests above, she is seeking power in another way, and so her people must suffer for now.
My worry is the Drow are going to come back EVEN more powerful than before.
|
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 18:27:12
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm:
The other way you can think about it, though, is a purifying of the drow race. After all, only the strongest will survive, those Lloth thinks are most fit for existance and her favor.
One small problem with that line of reasoning, Bookwyrm, you're thinking like a mortal. The only reason Lolth is a Greater Diety is because almost every Drow in the Underdark, and many on the surface, worship her. There are very few of other races that worship her. Now, thanks to Lord Ao, the number of worshipers effects a diety's divine power, ala the post Avatar Effects. So, for a diety who is really only concerned with her own personal power (she created the Drow in her image after all), it would make no sense to destroy her own basin of support. The only thing that would make this make sense is if she was doing something outside of the Prime to increase her power, but I can't see what she could do. Essentially, the rule of thumb for the dieties regarding their worshipers is quantity, not quality. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 17:36:18
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
[blue]I guess that's what happens to a race based totally on chaos. If Lolth isn't careful she will not have any worshipers left in the end.
The other way you can think about it, though, is a purifying of the drow race. After all, only the strongest will survive, those Lloth thinks are most fit for existance and her favor.
Actually Bookwyrm that is what the writers are hinting at. Actually in the beginning of the book they talk about how Lloth knows it is going to cause her people problems, but she has to undergo the metamorphosis anyway. I am wondering if this is going toincrease her godly power.
The Dark Elves are a great concept, I love them, but being in gaming for so many years, has introduced to me to MANY dark elf ranger renegade wannabees. In every gamestore there is a munchkin talking about his GREAT Drow renegade.
"Oh but he's not evil like most drow! (Clever smile forms on the munchkin's face) He is actually good and had to leavehis society."
They say this as if it has never been done before. Why doesn't someone play an EVIL darkelf from the underdark. Now that would be a new idea. Drizzt Do'urden is my favourite character in the FR, but on the flip side it makes me dislike Drizzt clones even more.
But actually the Dark elves are an impotent race. Because they are so Chaotic they have not been able to pose a significant threat to the realms. They are nothing more than raiders, and as the destruction of Ched Nassad showed, in capable of defending against mass invasion. As individuals they are powerful, but as a collective race, they are no threat.
However it must be stated that I would not like to be the character in the Forgotten Realms that quotes a famous Japanese general.
"I fear we have awakened a sleeping giant..."
This is what the dark elves would be if they could unite.
|
| Eternal_Dreadlord |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 06:43:49
quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
[blue]I guess that's what happens to a race based totally on chaos. If Lolth isn't careful she will not have any worshipers left in the end.
The other way you can think about it, though, is a purifying of the drow race. After all, only the strongest will survive, those Lloth thinks are most fit for existance and her favor.
It's sad that the Drow society is being destroyed because their God has a Gruumsh-complex....
Bah! |
| Eternal_Dreadlord |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 06:39:23
I can't imagine so many Drow losing to anything, they are ferocious when cornered..
Was Bregan D'Aerthe involved??
I am going to get those books today BTW. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 27 Apr 2003 : 06:39:09
quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
[blue]I guess that's what happens to a race based totally on chaos. If Lolth isn't careful she will not have any worshipers left in the end.
The other way you can think about it, though, is a purifying of the drow race. After all, only the strongest will survive, those Lloth thinks are most fit for existance and her favor. |
| Edain Shadowstar |
Posted - 26 Apr 2003 : 22:47:55
Those fantastic WOTSQ books, such fantastic pieces of literature. How unfortunately, they're gonna burn the entire Underdark (at least the Drow part) to ashes.
Granted, the destruction fo Ched Nasad was not my favorite event in the history of FR, but it perfectly illustrated how weak the Drow Elves really are. They are, ironically, their own worst enemy. I guess that's what happens to a race based totally on chaos. If Lolth isn't careful she will not have any worshipers left in the end.
Well, I guess inter house tentsions, slave revolts, duergar mercenaries, fire that burns stone, and an uncontrollable guardian spider(s) could take down any city built almost entirely on giant stone webs, not just a Drow one. |
| TsilfaEor |
Posted - 26 Apr 2003 : 22:20:51
I recommend reading the FR Accessory City of The Spider Queen like mournblade94 said.
It might not reaaly speek of ched nazad, but you really get the point on the atmosphere of the place, the encounters, the evils there. it is really good.
Tsilfa |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 26 Apr 2003 : 08:24:00
The reason it can be is because the Priestesses of Lloth lost their power, A renegade house hired Duergar Mercenaries to come in and do damage, and there was a mass slave revolt of everything from Kobolds to fire giants.
|
| branmakmuffin |
Posted - 26 Apr 2003 : 02:57:16
Eternal_Dreadlord:
quote:
How can a city of 30,000 Drow be burnt to the ground???
I'm sure atleast 1/10th of the Drow were elite fighters/wizards/clerics/etc..
I've never read any of them (the Underdark gives a me a pain), but I'm sure it's all laid out in the "Spider Queen" novels.
I have played in a bit of the module (a friend is GM'ing it in Middle Earth 'cause he likes Drow), so I have an inkling what the deal is. No spoilers from me, however. |
| Eternal_Dreadlord |
Posted - 26 Apr 2003 : 01:53:50
How can a city of 30,000 Drow be burnt to the ground???
I'm sure atleast 1/10th of the Drow were elite fighters/wizards/clerics/etc.. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 18 Apr 2003 : 18:18:02
1372 Dalereckoning. This is all occuring at the same time as City of the SPider Queen.
|
| Thorin Stoutdrinker |
Posted - 18 Apr 2003 : 17:27:54
quote:
Originally posted by mournblade94
THIS IS A SPOILER THIS IS A SPOILER THIS IS A SPOILER THIS IS A SPOILER!!!!
Ched Nasad is currently RUBBLE. The city was destroyed by a bunch of Duergar, Slave classes, an entourage form Menzoberranzan, and the stooooooopid matron mothers that rule Ched Nassad.
When does that happen, is there any given time in the book about this? |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 16 Apr 2003 : 03:07:30
RAD I AGREE! I am VERY impressed with the Series. Pharaun and Ryld are great characters, and they are SKILLED writers! The series is excellent.
|
|
|
