| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Forgotten Ghost |
Posted - 26 Aug 2006 : 12:47:10
Now we all know there are numerous evil and goods gods with various schemes against one another active in the realms and the same goes for the Arch devils and Demon Princes, But you would think that some good outsider (a solar or planetar) would set their own forces to oppose the works of these evil outsider cults. Though this never seems to be the case and why do even good wizards and clerics summon demons and devils to do their bidding wouldn't a good outsider be more appropiate (at least some times)? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 18:21:26
quote:
Originally posted by Aureus
Perhaps there are so few good outsiders because it's bad storytelling?
Think about it, when a good oustider requests help from his homeplane (which it will very likely do, if it can and is in dire need of support), shouldn't it be always postivly answered? Especially the lawful good ("respect and serve your superiours, protect and guide your subordinates, respect and help your peers, destroy evil") would immediatly come to support their comrades, no matter the rank it has in the celestial hierarchie.
So in order to tell a story not simply ending with "and the bad guys were cut into shreds by an army of angels" there will be very few good outsiders (who at this point will have good reasons to appear at all and alone) since it ruins the story.
I think that some of the answer could also be, "If we come galloping to the rescue every time mortals get in trouble, they'll depend on us for everything and never amount to anything themselves."
That and there could be rules mortals don't know about, preventing their doing just that. "Remember, angel! The more openly you intervene in the mortal world, the more openly we of the Abyss (Hells/Gehenna) can meddle as well! So think, and think carefully, before you interfere with my servitors among these mortal vermin." |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 18:17:56
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Odd question here, but how would you fit the 'loths in with the Book of Fiends sin-based daemons or the daemons we'll be seeing in Golarion? I figured that they could all exist, but some worlds are more heavily visited by one 'breed' of daemon than the other.
Well unfortunately I don't have a copy of Book of Fiends, so I can't speak much on the sin-based daemons. Golarion's daemons exist as both a number of castes that include such familiar faces of hydrolothsdaemons, dergholothsdaemons, etc. And then you've got the four castes that operate as overt servitors to the four archdaemons of War/Destruction, Famine/Wasting, Plague, and Death.
So some of the 'loths are there, but most of the more intelligent, and all the upper caste 'loths aren't OGL so can't use them. The daemons are much more internally conflicted than the 'loths (who had the baernaloths playing them like puppets to guide them). The daemons have some guidance, but well, it's rather different. You'll see.
You'll find some thematic similarity to some of the 'loths showing up within Golarion's daemonic society. The meladaemons for instance who serve Trelmarixian the archdaemon of Wasting may come across as similar to some of the upper caste 'loths (and Trelmarixian is partially based on a 'loth from my own campaign). They're rather different in many ways though (the 'loths abhor the divine, while daemons don't care one way or the other really, but they can't fathom the idea of mortal worship, and indeed they despise mortality itself).
You'll see once the book is out. Can't say much more till then.
Thanks for the response, and I'm eager to see your work once it gets published. |
| Aureus |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 15:57:58
Perhaps there are so few good outsiders because it's bad storytelling?
Think about it, when a good oustider requests help from his homeplane (which it will very likely do, if it can and is in dire need of support), shouldn't it be always postivly answered? Especially the lawful good ("respect and serve your superiours, protect and guide your subordinates, respect and help your peers, destroy evil") would immediatly come to support their comrades, no matter the rank it has in the celestial hierarchie.
So in order to tell a story not simply ending with "and the bad guys were cut into shreds by an army of angels" there will be very few good outsiders (who at this point will have good reasons to appear at all and alone) since it ruins the story. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 04:58:28
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Odd question here, but how would you fit the 'loths in with the Book of Fiends sin-based daemons or the daemons we'll be seeing in Golarion? I figured that they could all exist, but some worlds are more heavily visited by one 'breed' of daemon than the other.
Well unfortunately I don't have a copy of Book of Fiends, so I can't speak much on the sin-based daemons. Golarion's daemons exist as both a number of castes that include such familiar faces of hydrolothsdaemons, dergholothsdaemons, etc. And then you've got the four castes that operate as overt servitors to the four archdaemons of War/Destruction, Famine/Wasting, Plague, and Death.
So some of the 'loths are there, but most of the more intelligent, and all the upper caste 'loths aren't OGL so can't use them. The daemons are much more internally conflicted than the 'loths (who had the baernaloths playing them like puppets to guide them). The daemons have some guidance, but well, it's rather different. You'll see.
You'll find some thematic similarity to some of the 'loths showing up within Golarion's daemonic society. The meladaemons for instance who serve Trelmarixian the archdaemon of Wasting may come across as similar to some of the upper caste 'loths (and Trelmarixian is partially based on a 'loth from my own campaign). They're rather different in many ways though (the 'loths abhor the divine, while daemons don't care one way or the other really, but they can't fathom the idea of mortal worship, and indeed they despise mortality itself).
You'll see once the book is out. Can't say much more till then. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 26 Feb 2009 : 00:32:14
Lets not forget that poor, pathetic bas... errrr.... celestial that got 'caught' by the Sojourner in book I of Everis Cale.
That scene made me actually feel sorry for fiends. <shudder> |
| Marc |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 20:03:19
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Thanks for the words on guardinals; they're some of my favorite celestials. Though I do figure on some guardinals being closer to their animal natures than others -- I think it's been stated that the ones on the Beastlands are more in sympathy with animals than humans?
yes, that's probably cause of the influence of the Beastlands
|
| Ardashir |
Posted - 25 Feb 2009 : 18:44:05
quote:
Originally posted by Shemmy
quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin
imo guardinals don't serve any god, especially gods of different alignment, they sometimes ally with them but that's it
Guardinals are exemplars of NG, it's very rare for such creatures to change their nature, just cause they appear bestial, doesn't mean they are, they're philosophers, thinkers and monks. Guardinals aren't animals just like eladrins aren't elves. Animal forms are just symbols and analogies that the mortal mind constructs unable to perceive beings of spirit. Just like in shamanistic societies where you have the wisdom of the bear (ursinal) or the nobility of the lion (leonal). Just like yugoloths, they don't deal much with gods.
Thanks for the words on guardinals; they're some of my favorite celestials. Though I do figure on some guardinals being closer to their animal natures than others -- I think it's been stated that the ones on the Beastlands are more in sympathy with animals than humans?
[quote]Originally posted by Shemmy
And since the 'loths were mentioned, they rather actively despise gods. They'll serve one reluctantly, but only out of selfish gain, to spite another god, or ultimately to harm the deity they're "serving". And in their case at least, they predate the divine, viewing them as powerful, unwanted interlopers into a universe that should be theirs by birthright.
Odd question here, but how would you fit the 'loths in with the Book of Fiends sin-based daemons or the daemons we'll be seeing in Golarion? I figured that they could all exist, but some worlds are more heavily visited by one 'breed' of daemon than the other. |
| Shemmy |
Posted - 24 Feb 2009 : 01:30:32
quote:
Originally posted by Maruluthu Mistrivvin
imo guardinals don't serve any god, especially gods of different alignment, they sometimes ally with them but that's it
Guardinals are exemplars of NG, it's very rare for such creatures to change their nature, just cause they appear bestial, doesn't mean they are, they're philosophers, thinkers and monks. Guardinals aren't animals just like eladrins aren't elves. Animal forms are just symbols and analogies that the mortal mind constructs unable to perceive beings of spirit. Just like in shamanistic societies where you have the wisdom of the bear (ursinal) or the nobility of the lion (leonal). Just like yugoloths, they don't deal much with gods.
are arcanaloths bestial? or baernaloths serving the god of goatmen
Pretty much how I'd phrase it. The guardinals serve abstract Good, NG, and while some guardinals might act in ways that aid Selune or some other non-NG deity, they'll do so not out of servitude, but out of mutual goals. In many instances, the celestials might be looking at a longer, more abstract world view than a deity who has to worry about advancing their personal portfolio and attracting worshippers, etc.
And when they do happen to serve a deity -be it a "bestial" deity or not- they don't need to alter their alignment to do so. Unlike a cleric or an aasimon/angel (who are direct servants of good gods) they don't have any need to conform to that god's alignment, since technically they aren't acting in its service except by tangent.
And since the 'loths were mentioned, they rather actively despise gods. They'll serve one reluctantly, but only out of selfish gain, to spite another god, or ultimately to harm the deity they're "serving". And in their case at least, they predate the divine, viewing them as powerful, unwanted interlopers into a universe that should be theirs by birthright. |
| Draezen |
Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 16:03:10
There was also one scene in The Gossamer Plain where Aliisza in some way or another traveled to the prime with a bunch of celestials to save a child. Or was it the mother? Anyway, regardless, there were celestials involved. I think the leader was an astral deva. |
| Knight of the Gate |
Posted - 22 Feb 2009 : 09:41:25
For the record, the only instance of a celestial popping up and saving the day in a novel that I can think of is in the opening pages of 'The Crystal Shard'. Al Deminiera (? on the name- haven't read those books since the mid-90's)who is described (IIRC) as an angelic being, banished Errtu with a word, which would presumably label him as a rather powerful sort. |
| Marc |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 20:29:05
imo guardinals don't serve any god, especially gods of different alignment, they sometimes ally with them but that's it
Guardinals are exemplars of NG, it's very rare for such creatures to change their nature, just cause they appear bestial, doesn't mean they are, they're philosophers, thinkers and monks. Guardinals aren't animals just like eladrins aren't elves. Animal forms are just symbols and analogies that the mortal mind constructs unable to perceive beings of spirit. Just like in shamanistic societies where you have the wisdom of the bear (ursinal) or the nobility of the lion (leonal). Just like yugoloths, they don't deal much with gods.
are arcanaloths bestial? or baernaloths serving the god of goatmen
still there are plenty of different creatures that serve ''beast'' gods, celestial lammasu, even foo lions would be suitable for Nobanion, or leskylors ...
I used Selune's realm a few times, these are the inhabitants:
seawolf, werebison, wereblack-lion, werecat, weredog, weredolphin, wrowl, wereseal, feelenstial, kholiathra, lady sensate, sliver, shard (planetar), sind, movanic deva, moonwyrm, bralani eladrin, lillend, lycanthropes, unicorn, chaos roc, silverfist merchurion, mercury dragon, asura, firre eladrin, coure eladrin, bariaur, moon dog, moonfly swarm, hollyphant, hengeyokai, shifter, foo creature, incarnate of hope, mortai, noviere eladrin, asrai, fensir (kidnappers), oread, tresymm, song dragon, lythari, silver dog, phoenix, radiance quasielemental, firestar, flicker |
| Markustay |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 19:36:47
Nobanion and Sharess (Baast). 
And yeah, I agree, and thats why I re-worked all of the D&D cosmology to better suit my needs (or rather -augmented it).
'Change' is such a dirty word.  |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 18:56:14
And while we're talking about celestials -- am I the only person who thinks that there are LG leonals serving Nobanion and CG lupinals serving Selune and Eilistraee? You'd think that some of the 'Beast Gods' of the Realms would have divine servants who resemble the forms of their masters. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 12 Feb 2009 : 18:48:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Evil outsiders are more likely to give the summoner what he wants... Part of the point for summoning outsiders is for evil purposes: getting them to give you power or do bad things to other people. You need baddies to do bad things.
And there's the idea that a lot of mages, good or bad, might be less bothered about forcing fiends into servitude as compared to celestials. Hey, it's no more than they deserve, right?
That and, I figured that celestials stuck together better than fiends do. Okay, you can muscle that musteval guardinal or lantern archona round now... but what will you do when it comes back next month with half-a-dozen angry devas who want to, ahem, 'talk' with you about this habit of enslaving their fellow celestials? |
| Exploit |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 15:42:35
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Let me ask my fellow scribes this then
How many of you have had a Player cast a Summon Planar ally/Gate spell, and bring a good outsider to a fight?
As a player and a DM, I make massive use Lesser Planar Ally or Lesser Planar Binding to summon up Lantern Archons. For 500 gp you can get a Lantern Archon to serve you for a day per level doing non-hazardous tasks.
In the first minute, have the Lantern Archon create 10 everburning torches for you for free and you have made your investment back with profit. Furthermore you now have a being who can teleport at will up to 50 lbs of gear and messages to your fellow good allies! Use a bag of holding to increase the weight and allow the transportation of live individuals.
Instant messaging service and instant delivery service for free! If good PCs and NPCs are not taking advantage of this immense benefit then they deserve to be overwhelmed by the forces of evil! |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 07:33:35
As I have never played 3ed. and don't have much interest in Planescape my answer to your question is of limited use, but in all my years of the 2ed. I can only remember a couple of instances of the players summoning creatures at all. Even demons and devils were left alone. The cases I do remember were elementals.
If I were to game 3ed. with the same players I still cant see many of them trying to summon good or evil outsiders, as there is always risks in dealing with creatures of other planes. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 05:16:45
Let me ask my fellow scribes this then
How many of you have had a Player cast a Summon Planar ally/Gate spell, and bring a good outsider to a fight?
I just finished off running a campaign that took the players from 1-17 and Im pretty sure the only time they summoned a non celestial templated good creature was when they summoned a Bralani with a Summon Monster spell. My Players where far more likely to summon Elementals then Good Outsiders
|
| reddfox321 |
Posted - 02 Jan 2007 : 02:49:58
Perhaps its the whole "serve in heaven/rule in hell" idea
Its all in the means
When an evil person needs a lower entity's help they don't submit to it, they dominate it. When a good person needs a higher entity's help they submit (pray) to it... sometimes to no obvious answer. |
| Kitira Gildragon |
Posted - 09 Sep 2006 : 05:21:00
Good also tends to believe that it can beat a stronger force with sheer determination. Celestials and other good outsiders may believe in single mortals being able to move mountains.
Evil, on the other hand, believes in attrition and having groups to serve them. After all, it never hurts to have some strong muscle and a few meatshields. That saves an extra stoneskin for later ;)
|
| Forgotten Ghost |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 04:22:50
both good points from lowtech and Darkhund i hadn't thought of those but i still wonder exactly what the celestials are doing. There is plenty of material on the motivations, tactics and such of demons and devils but little for the good outsiders are they just sitting around just kicking back a few and watching the planes spin by. |
| Darkhund |
Posted - 06 Sep 2006 : 22:41:14
An arguement against, or rather, supporting, the don't get assaulted bit is...if they draw the attention of Demons, or of Devils, and that side sends some forces...they've just given some support to the opposing side in the Bloodwar, which I am sure the Celestials do NOT wish to do. |
| lowtech |
Posted - 06 Sep 2006 : 04:50:48
A logical (not to mention convenient, from a role-playing perspective) reason for celestial non-intervention is that direct battles between the forces of light and darkness tend to destroy the terrain AND leave "spiritual residue" inimical to mortal life (think nuclear weapons and radiation). Furthermore, efforts to heal the land would require the forces of light to expend a great deal of their power, which would weaken them in the event of an attack by the lower planes. Finally, coddling mortals too often would ultimately weaken mortal capacity to grow spiritually, making mortals more suceptible to fiendish influence in the long run. |
| Forgotten Ghost |
Posted - 04 Sep 2006 : 11:55:52
Again yes the PC's should be the heroes but should not the good outsiders at least be present even in a minor way, it seems as if they do very little though the realms is a big place they may be preoccupied with other problems. Though i personally would like to see a Solar or other good outsider in a novel (or even in a game no game I have played in or run has actually used a good outsider in any shape or form), it would be nice for a change.
Also whilst they are powerful they don't necessarily have to do the Heroes job for them, they could set the heroes on the path to being the heroes, provide warnings or advice, hold of a horde of demons whilst the Heroes stop the evil cambion wizards spell of doom. There are many ways in which they could be employed without stealing the heroes thunder, yet we almost never see them, which is some thing i find a tad disapointing. |
| FridayThe13th |
Posted - 03 Sep 2006 : 23:01:49
Yes, the PCs don't need their job done for them, they are the stars of the show, not the celestials.
Then again, celestials tend to be very cautious about planar politics and how it can affect them. If celestials poked their noses into every PC battle with fiends and thwart all of their plans, the fiends would get pretty pissed and would probably carry the grudge to the outer plane, which means the celestials have to do a lot more fighting than they want to. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 03 Sep 2006 : 20:56:13
It wasn't so much based on anything as just a thing I came up with to explain outsiders and their interferance, or lack thereof, in a given campaign, so I came up with some rules and occaisionally I would leak out how things worked on a cosmic scale to the PCs. For example:
1. If a fiend enters the Prime of its own volition, a celestial is completely justified in showing up and "escorting" it back to its home plane.
2. If a fiend is willingly summoned by a native of the Prime, its a "Prime" problem, and the forces that are interested in balance (i.e. things like Inevitables, Justicators, Rilmani), will keep a celestial from interfering with what the fiend does.
This means that if an eladrin says the heck with it and attacks a summoned pit fiend, a justicator might show up and tear into said eladrin. Since most good aligned outsiders don't want innocents caught up in a battle where they could get hurt, and most would rather save their wrath for fighting evil instead of neutral creatures, they tend to stay away unless they are brought to the Prime in the service of a good mortal or at the behest of a deity.
If this logic holds, I further reasoned, Yugoloths are the least likely to show up unbidden, since they are mercenaries and are always looking for payment, and devils are unlikely to show up in mass, thought they may "skirt" the rules by showing up in disguise in small numbers, hoping to avoid the notice of the more balance minded outsiders, as well as any celestials.
Demons might be sneaky and try to show up in small numbers to cause havok, but they might just as often decide to go all out on a raid and hope to do a hit and run before any angels show up to disuade them from their course of action.
Of the celestials, eladrins are much more likely to try and pop in, destroy some devils, and pop back out, and likely will not do this in large numbers. Guardinals are fairly likely to try to get away with this, depending on how evil the act commited by the fiend in question.
A holy relic or site may have a celestial bound to guard it, in which case, it goes back to the good aligned version of the above, its a "Prime" concern, and the more balance minded outsiders aren't likely to take any actions if a planetar or solar defends a given temple, abbey, or relic.
It helps me to justify why hosts of angels didn't show up and wipe out Hellgate Keep, for example. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 03 Sep 2006 : 18:14:08
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
You know, this give me an idea for the next set of hooks... 
No fair! :) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Sep 2006 : 18:10:36
You know, this give me an idea for the next set of hooks... |
| Conlon |
Posted - 03 Sep 2006 : 09:41:48
You definitely make good points, Beirnadri. I only disagree because there seems to be no balance.
I understand that for the purposes of writing novels, you can't have the characters bailed out all the time by powerful angels/devas/whatever.
It just seems that it pretty much NEVER happens.
If there actually were devils/demons/solars/devas, and there was a conflict where good mortals were being massacred by evil outsiders, I would hope that the good outsiders would be a little more helpful than just pointing the mortals in the right direction. |
| Beirnadri Magranth |
Posted - 03 Sep 2006 : 05:04:03
The thing is the reason that evil outsiders are summoned is because the summoner is a weaker evil being seeking greater power against the mostly good-aligned society from which s/he is outcast.
So basically, If we had an evil society we should expect that the goo-aligned outcasts there would be calling on celestials on a higher basis.
Unfortunately we don't have many examples of this since most societies in ficiton are good-aligned.
The most obvious example of the Lolth worshipping drow cultures goies against our assumptions.
This is for a number of reasons, 1- because the societies military force is strictly controlled, 2- the culture is mainly monotheistic and therefore its harder to find patron gods to give divine summoning spells. 3- Fiction authors maintain the expectation that good heroes should be able to confront their problems through their own means... it makes the hero more protagonistic. This expectation exists because when a good society is faced with problems such as summoned infernals they are expected to be able to overcome those problems by virtue that there are more little guys willing to fight the demon than there are evil guys to overcome them.
I think the main reason that an evil outcast is more liable to summon an outsider than a good outcast in an oppositely aqligned society is that; good guys are expected to be honorable and fair and fight for themselves, and because its a stereotype bc there hasnt beena lot of literature about good outcasts.
oh and all this talk of the last mythal doesnt really bug me because:
the celestials understand that they dont want this to be the next outerplanes arena and so they refrain from crowding the material and try to respect ao's wishes.
secondly
the task of summoning all those fiends etc was a tremendous taska dn burden for sarya who struggled to keep them on the material plane. the good guys could have done the same but they instead, invested their energy into fighting for themselves and thus maintained their own hegemony as opposed to Sarya who sold ehr soul to malkizid.
-beir |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 03 Sep 2006 : 04:44:33
There is a case of good-aligned outsiders in a novel... In The Wyvern's Spur, a couple of Shards popped up to defend Selūne's temple when it was attacked by Flattery's undead. As I recall, one even healed Giogi. |
|
|
