| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 25 Aug 2006 : 00:19:13
Silly question time: do werefoxes (from 2nd Ed. D&D) exist on Faerun or not? And was there ever any info on them in the Realms or anywhere else beyond their Monster Manual entry? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Christopher_Rowe |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 00:25:37
Scribes interested in this topic might want to check out Kij Johnson's excellent novel, The Fox Woman. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 02 Oct 2008 : 00:22:27
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
When I say 'use them as kitsune', I meant a werefox/foxwere with some bard or enchanter levels, manipulating the PCs with charms and illusions.
Ah, okay. That works.  |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 23:35:33
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Personally I figured that foxwere = kitsune, at least for me.
[/quote]
That's an easy way of doing it, but there's a lot more to kitsune. The legends don't always agree (at least, the translations of them don't), but kitsune are often either tricksters (most Westerners seem to favor this concept of kitsune) or guardians, and have a variety of inherent magical powers. Plus, there's the whole thing of more tails meaning more age and power... So that's why I shy away from equating the two: it's only the loosest translation. It's kinda like saying a knight and a samurai are the same.
[/quote]
True enough, though there are different 'types' of kitsune.
1) The Chinese huli jing, literally 'bewitching werevixen', also a phrase used for a wanton woman. They are tricksters, sometimes act as patrons to scholars, but are mostly just plain horny vixens and like shapeshifting and having sex with mortal men. In a (3.5) game they'd probably be a kind of Fey with some spell-like abilities from the Illusion and Enchantment lists.
2) The Japanese kitsune, the classic Asian werefox. Again, mostly tricksters, though some become the wives and mothers of heroes (the great Japanese sorcerer, Abe No Mei, was supposed to be the son of a kitsune). Some are life-devouring demons, like the infamous White Jewel Maiden, Tamamo-no-Mae, but most just like pranking humans. And some did transform humans into other kitsune.
3) The Korean kumiho. Seducers, destroyers, deceivers, they live in graveyards and slaughter entire families (typically replacing the family matriarch first, and then killing and eating everyone else one after the other). They are supposed to be 1000-year old white foxes with nine tails. In a game they'd be Chaotic Evil in the worst sense -- Cyric would love these vixens -- and in real-world myths, I don't think I've ever found even one story of them behaving decently.
When I say 'use them as kitsune', I meant a werefox/foxwere with some bard or enchanter levels, manipulating the PCs with charms and illusions. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 05:42:37
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Secondly, what would be wrong with 'western kitsune' as such? I thought that the Realms already did have kitsune-ish critters in Kara-Tur.
Oh, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with kitsune. I'm just saying that the concepts of foxweres and kitsune are pretty close to the same (minus the multiple tails and more magical nature, of course). For some people, that could be an issue.
Thanks for explaining.
Personally I figured that foxwere = kitsune, at least for me.
That's an easy way of doing it, but there's a lot more to kitsune. The legends don't always agree (at least, the translations of them don't), but kitsune are often either tricksters (most Westerners seem to favor this concept of kitsune) or guardians, and have a variety of inherent magical powers. Plus, there's the whole thing of more tails meaning more age and power... So that's why I shy away from equating the two: it's only the loosest translation. It's kinda like saying a knight and a samurai are the same. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 01 Oct 2008 : 00:46:54
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Secondly, what would be wrong with 'western kitsune' as such? I thought that the Realms already did have kitsune-ish critters in Kara-Tur.
Oh, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with kitsune. I'm just saying that the concepts of foxweres and kitsune are pretty close to the same (minus the multiple tails and more magical nature, of course). For some people, that could be an issue.
Thanks for explaining.
Personally I figured that foxwere = kitsune, at least for me. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 20:58:31
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
Secondly, what would be wrong with 'western kitsune' as such? I thought that the Realms already did have kitsune-ish critters in Kara-Tur.
Oh, I'm not saying there's anything wrong with kitsune. I'm just saying that the concepts of foxweres and kitsune are pretty close to the same (minus the multiple tails and more magical nature, of course). For some people, that could be an issue. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 19:13:21
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
The art is credited to Noëlle Triaureau (except for one done by Tom Costa himself), and she does have a website: http://www.noelletriaureau.com/
I'm not sure how much stuff is on there; I just glanced at the site.
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
And, I vaguely recall reading a 3/3.5 book that listed 'foxweres' as creatures. I'm thinking is was in the original Tome of Horrors, but I'm not sure. Can anyone help me out?
We've had wolfweres and jackalweres in the past, so I don't see why foxweres can't be in there. It might be a little too close to kitsune in concept, though.
First of all, thanks for the link to the lady's art.
Secondly, what would be wrong with 'western kitsune' as such? I thought that the Realms already did have kitsune-ish critters in Kara-Tur. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 01:17:56
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
And here's the link: Realms Bestiary, Volume 1. It's a wonderful resource, and many of us are eagerly awaiting the long-anticipated release of Volume 2 (there is no set release date).
This is going to sound odd, but does anyone know more about the lady who drew the art that could be found in the Bestiary? Does she have more work online?
The art is credited to Noëlle Triaureau (except for one done by Tom Costa himself), and she does have a website: http://www.noelletriaureau.com/
I'm not sure how much stuff is on there; I just glanced at the site.
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
And, I vaguely recall reading a 3/3.5 book that listed 'foxweres' as creatures. I'm thinking is was in the original Tome of Horrors, but I'm not sure. Can anyone help me out?
We've had wolfweres and jackalweres in the past, so I don't see why foxweres can't be in there. It might be a little too close to kitsune in concept, though. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 01:15:17
I think there was a previous discussion here about a scribe or two keen on contacting the contributing artists. I just can't recall which scroll that was. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 30 Sep 2008 : 00:55:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Originally posted by Jorkens
And here's the link: Realms Bestiary, Volume 1. It's a wonderful resource, and many of us are eagerly awaiting the long-anticipated release of Volume 2 (there is no set release date).
This is going to sound odd, but does anyone know more about the lady who drew the art that could be found in the Bestiary? Does she have more work online?
And, I vaguely recall reading a 3/3.5 book that listed 'foxweres' as creatures. I'm thinking is was in the original Tome of Horrors, but I'm not sure. Can anyone help me out? |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 14:17:50
Great ideas Kalin; it is one of the tshing I sometimes feel is lacking in the realms, the mythological stories (true and untrue) that explains the worldviews and ideas found among the different peoples and cultures. But that's another subject for another time. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 14:00:32
I link Shar to lycanthropes simply because the lycanthropes are so closely linked to Selune, the moon...and where there is one involved the other one is always linked somehow...
another spin of the idea is I imagine some story of Shar and Jannath (Chauntea)...the lycanthropes are Jannath's (sp?) children and Shar drives them insane so Selune steps in and at least mitigates their madness to save the burgeoning races...
And while Malar is a pretty old god, I doubt he is one of the first primal gods (my definition of the gods first formed in the creation of the world) nor did he create lycanthropy. His battle with Herne in the novel Evermeet tells me Malar was once also an interloper god and/or a regional god...though I totally agree with you that Malar makes the best patron god of the evil lycanthropes
here is another idea (building on the Jannath theory): that Malar is the first true lycanthrope in the Realms, a Great Druid of Jannath that was currupted by Shar and became the progenator of the lycanthropy disease
|
| Jorkens |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 07:39:23
I see Shar more as a being without emotion, whereas the Gods of Fury are the extremes of the same, so the ties between them don't come that easily to me personally.
As to the lycanthropes, I have no problem with the evil alignment, I see the good ones more as exceptions created by the blessings of Selune and Nobaion. As the gods of the lycanthropes have always been among my personal favorites I have never really tied most of the creatures to the realmsian gods anyway. In many ways the lycanthropes and their gods become something close to doppelgangers in my mind, creatures existing between the established forms and scavenging on both. A sort of primeval predators that have existed between the races since the beginning of time. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 01:46:01
Though it rather makes you wonder about Malar's origins. I like to link the Gods of Fury with Shar, ideaologically. I could quite easily see some sort of a rapport between Shar and Malar in the distant past of Faerun's pantheons. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 00:49:30
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
I always thought it would have been Malar and not Shar who corrupted the lycanthropes.
I like the sound of that.
Additionally, it plays well with the fact that F&P notes evil lycanthropes among Malar's worshippers, while Shar's does not.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 08 Sep 2006 : 00:20:34
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
I always thought it would have been Malar and not Shar who corrupted the lycanthropes.
I've actually had an idea along these lines... But I'm not going to say anything more on it until I decide what I'm doing with the overall concept. |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 23:50:23
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
The "must be evil" doesn't make sense to me either, but then, you can change it if you like. Heck, there are apparently quite a few CG werewolves of Selune out there.
I think the evil part comes from "vixen" having the dual meaning of a manipulative or shrewish woman.
I felt that Selune's influence "purified" an evil natural lycanthrope's alignment to good...in my (epic  ) campaign I am developing I am working on an idea that (Days of Thunder time) Shar currupted the lycanthropes (who were servants of Selune and possibly Chauntea) and Selune now is trying to cleanse them...
and the "vixen" role does justify the NE alignment
I always thought it would have been Malar and not Shar who corrupted the lycanthropes. Admittedly, he does seem to be the "idiot cousin" of evil Realms deities, but their combination of bestial rage with a link to the natural world seems to make them a natural combination.
And I like the idea about NE alignment for foxwomen. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 17:19:11
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Sean K Reynolds has a set of variant lycanthropy rules; it's a $5 pdf called Curse of the Moon. I've not looked thru it in great detail, but I know it attempts to fix what SKR feels are serious issues with 3.x lycanthropes, including alignment.
:)
http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=6960&src=RPGShop |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 17:16:14
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
The "must be evil" doesn't make sense to me either, but then, you can change it if you like. Heck, there are apparently quite a few CG werewolves of Selune out there.
I think the evil part comes from "vixen" having the dual meaning of a manipulative or shrewish woman.
I felt that Selune's influence "purified" an evil natural lycanthrope's alignment to good...in my (epic ) campaign I am developing I am working on an idea that (Days of Thunder time) Shar currupted the lycanthropes (who were servants of Selune and possibly Chauntea) and Selune now is trying to cleanse them...
and the "vixen" role does justify the NE alignment |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 17:11:24
Sean K Reynolds has a set of variant lycanthropy rules; it's a $5 pdf called Curse of the Moon. I've not looked thru it in great detail, but I know it attempts to fix what SKR feels are serious issues with 3.x lycanthropes, including alignment. |
| ShadowJack |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 16:50:28
Jorken's,
I will never know, they bit my poor character in two as he was trying to pet them... Should have worked, he was a ranger after all... |
| Kuje |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 16:50:12
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
Well ignoring Ravenloft in which all lycanthropes (except the wereraven) sooner or later "went" evil I found the alignments for the "Were"s usually dependant on Western society's perception of what "alignment" the animal was...
Look at the "good" lycanthropes...cats, bears, dolphins, dog, stag
now neutral lycanthropes...tiger, boar, leopard
and evil lycanthropes...rat, wolf, shark, bat, hyena, lion, snake, spider, pig
It doesn't always make sense but the "bad" animals are usually the evel lycanthropes and the "nice" animals are the good ones
Aye,
but we aren't discussing Ravenloft. :) Everything in Ravenloft usually goes evil sooner or later.
But you proved my point, the alignments don't make sense. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 16:22:48
quote:
Originally posted by KujeI never understood the Were's alignments for any edition. Like why the wolf and rats are almost always evil. That makes no sense to me. I've usually changed the lycan's so that they are usually neutral with variant alignments, just like the rest of the races.
Well ignoring Ravenloft in which all lycanthropes (except the wereraven) sooner or later "went" evil I found the alignments for the "Were"s usually dependant on Western society's perception of what "alignment" the animal was...
Look at the "good" lycanthropes...cats, bears, dolphins, dog, stag
now neutral lycanthropes...tiger, boar, leopard
and evil lycanthropes...rat, wolf, shark, bat, hyena, lion, snake, spider, pig
It doesn't always make sense but the "bad" animals are usually the evel lycanthropes and the "nice" animals are the good ones |
| Ardashir |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 16:17:09
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivarI also thought a "real" werefox should have been a neutral or good lycanthrope like the weretiger or werebear...foxes do not have an "evil" reputation (which is what it seemed to me that decided a true lycanthrope's general alignment)
The "must be evil" doesn't make sense to me either, but then, you can change it if you like. Heck, there are apparently quite a few CG werewolves of Selune out there.
I think the evil part comes from "vixen" having the dual meaning of a manipulative or shrewish woman. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 16:14:34
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I also thought a "real" werefox should have been a neutral or good lycanthrope like the weretiger or werebear...foxes do not have an "evil" reputation (which is what it seemed to me that decided a true lycanthrope's general alignment)
I never understood the Were's alignments for any edition. Like why the wolf and rats are almost always evil. That makes no sense to me. I've usually changed the lycan's so that they are usually neutral with variant alignments, just like the rest of the races. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 16:09:53
I never liked the "werefox"...with it's limits to gender and race I felt it was like the 2E "weredragon"...almost not a true lycanthrope...it should ahve been a "foxwere"
I also thought a "real" werefox should have been a neutral or good lycanthrope like the weretiger or werebear...foxes do not have an "evil" reputation (which is what it seemed to me that decided a true lycanthrope's general alignment) |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 12:57:35
quote:
originally posted by ShadowJack
I lost my favorite character to dwarf were-hamsters... viscious, biting little bastards...
Did they store gold in their cheek-pouches? |
| ShadowJack |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 12:51:58
(QUOTE) Werefoxes, weremoles, werecats...where's the were'furballs'? Werehamsters with their become cute and fluffy +3 causing even trolls to stop and go "awww".
I lost my favorite character to dwarf were-hamsters... viscious, biting little bastards... |
| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 05:19:29
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
Now as I was going to say before, she might not reside in the Abyss in FR's new cosmology though.
Indeed.
I was just going to say the same thing until the mephits running rampant here at Candlekeep, ate my post...
Until we're told otherwise however, through the lore, it's likely we can assume she has some basis in the Abyss of the 3e FR cosmology.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 07 Sep 2006 : 01:07:07
quote:
Originally posted by Ardashir
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Eshebala; detailed in 2ed. Monster Mythology along with the other Were-gods.
Thanks Jorkens (and Kuje); I thought the name Eshebala looked familiar. It's listed in the back of Hordes of the Abyss, under 'planar rulers' or such. Eshebala's domain is named Vulgaria. (And I apologize to the writers, but that makes it sound like one of those phony Balkan nations from an old Three Stooges comedy.)
I also have a hard time imagining a vain critter like a foxwoman, let alone their queen/goddess, hanging out with a bunch of thuggish tanari. Their respective styles just seem too different if you know what I mean -- rather like finding a femme fatale hanging out with the local outlaw biker gang.
Well she's always been in the Abyss, at least since On Hallowed Ground where her layer was on the 193rd layer and it was called Vulgarea. Odd that WOTC changed the E to an I. :) It makes sense that she resides in the Abyss since she's CE.....
Now as I was going to say before, she might not reside in the Abyss in FR's new cosmology though. |
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