| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| kaeso |
Posted - 16 Jul 2006 : 23:52:17
I know that the plane of shadow is inherintly evil, and since the Shadow Weave is also evil, are people who tap into these sources for their magic more likely to be evil or become evil? I've never heard of any rules saying that people who tap into shadow slowly turn evil, but it still seems like people who are good would be less inclinded to use shadow magic if they knew or found out about shadow's evil nature. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 18:42:00
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
the imaskari used shadowmagic without bowing to shar or any god.they used a ritual similar to the one the vyshaan used to wield highmagic without supporting casters.by binding fiends within their bodies.
I'm not doubting this is the case, because it is documented that Imaskar had involvement with fiends and it often "infected" their magic items. However, I was wondering, where is it stated that they bind fiends within their bodies in canon (was it in the novel where the Dlardrageth's perform a similar ritual or something?). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 18:38:32
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It is explicitly stated that Shar created the Shadow Weave, and that it took centuries for her to do so.
And, as I said, if it was a reflection, then the Shadow Weave would be affected by dead magic areas and wild magic areas. It is explicitly stated that it is not, since it is made from the dark spaces within the Weave.
It was also explicitly stated that the Shadow Weave "broke off" the unified Weave as a result of Karsus Folly. And in the Archwizards trilogy "Karsus blood" Heavy Magic was compatible with both.
Not that one does contradict the other "hard": no one said the newly-peeled Shadow Weave was immediately useable for spellcasting at all (which is unlikely, given that for the Weave to remain mostly predictable, Mystra had to stabilize it in real time, and oops, she lost access to this part), let alone obedient to Shar. Thus "it took centuries for her to make the Shadow Weave as we know it" fits well.
quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
if anyone bothered to check....Selune created the weave when she tore the stuff of magic from her very substance and hurled it at her sister, Shar.
"Did one elf/orc come into being per each drop of divine blood spilled, or was it some other ratio?" 
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
the imaskari used shadowmagic without bowing to shar or any god.
Imaskar was gone long before Netheril appeared at all.
Granted, the Imaskari Empire early Dynastic period started in -7975 DR, but The Imaskari Late Period Empire (when lower and upper Imaskar were reunited and the Imaskarcana were created) was from -3920 to -2488 DR. The Netherese Empire is forming from the -3800's to say the -3500's and create their first mythallar in -3014. So, the Imaskari learn magic MUCH earlier, but the two empires do spend about a thousand years where both co-exist. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 17:16:33
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
the imaskari used shadowmagic without bowing to shar or any god.
Imaskar was gone long before Netheril appeared at all.
I thought so at first. But some scribe (sorry, forgot who it was) pointed out otherwise with reference to specific timeline. But I’m a bit lazy to do even a little research or check my notes, so . . . |
| Quale |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 09:33:31
Imaskar's dark period of history is called Shartra |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 16 Jul 2013 : 09:09:17
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It is explicitly stated that Shar created the Shadow Weave, and that it took centuries for her to do so.
And, as I said, if it was a reflection, then the Shadow Weave would be affected by dead magic areas and wild magic areas. It is explicitly stated that it is not, since it is made from the dark spaces within the Weave.
It was also explicitly stated that the Shadow Weave "broke off" the unified Weave as a result of Karsus Folly. And in the Archwizards trilogy "Karsus blood" Heavy Magic was compatible with both.
Not that one does contradict the other "hard": no one said the newly-peeled Shadow Weave was immediately useable for spellcasting at all (which is unlikely, given that for the Weave to remain mostly predictable, Mystra had to stabilize it in real time, and oops, she lost access to this part), let alone obedient to Shar. Thus "it took centuries for her to make the Shadow Weave as we know it" fits well.
quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
if anyone bothered to check....Selune created the weave when she tore the stuff of magic from her very substance and hurled it at her sister, Shar.
"Did one elf/orc come into being per each drop of divine blood spilled, or was it some other ratio?"
quote:
Originally posted by jerrod
the imaskari used shadowmagic without bowing to shar or any god.
Imaskar was gone long before Netheril appeared at all. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 14:56:55
Not only that. As the Imaskari archmage Madryoch said, the ancient arcanists of Imaskar drew magic from other planes. |
| jerrod |
Posted - 15 Jul 2013 : 08:42:41
the imaskari used shadowmagic without bowing to shar or any god.they used a ritual similar to the one the vyshaan used to wield highmagic without supporting casters.by binding fiends within their bodies. |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 14:39:34
Lord Blade Wind ...exzachary...............just what I was trying to get across....the weave existed in Mystril as light and shadow...long before Shar regained in and crafted it into the Shadow Weave. |
| Dracons |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 10:13:16
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
One could speculate that this Shadow Weave spiralled out of control of Shar and fused with Torils Crystal Sphere to form the current active arcane powersource. It has remained independant of any dieties influence because it whent out of typical reach of the astral domains.
So the shadow weave betrayed Shar huh? Fitting. |
| Dennis |
Posted - 30 May 2010 : 03:57:30
quote:
Originally posted by Bladewind
Eventually Shar managed to create tha Shadow Weave in a manner similar to how some illusionists weave spells that become quasi-real by infusing shadowstuff into the weave over the span of several millenia. This gradual magical anti-radiation from her godly domain eventually coalesced into her controllable magic source.
Interesting theory...But it would not have been called Shadow Weave had it not been literally the shadow of the Weave itself. If Shar created the SW that way, might as well call it Shar's Weave. 
|
| Bladewind |
Posted - 29 May 2010 : 23:16:37
I think the theory deserves some attention though.
If a proto Shadow Weave was present at the birth of Mystryl, it might have resided inside the weavegoddess for aeons. Earlier shadow magic users invoking Mystryl might have been shaping the weave to gradually form a shadow. Getting this shadow falling under her power would be the anchor with which Shar could slowly siphon power form the goddes of magic.
Eventually Shar managed to create tha Shadow Weave in a manner similar to how some illusionists weave spells that become quasi-real by infusing shadowstuff into the weave over the span of several millenia. This gradual magical anti-radiation from her godly domain eventually coalesced into her controllable magic source.
Its mentioned int the Countdown to the Realms articles that after Mystra's destruction Shar somehow lost control of the Shadow Weave. This might have been caused by Ao, but I think thats unlikely. Perhaps it was a dormant part of a Mystryl still imprinted into the shadow weaves structure. One could speculate that this Shadow Weave spiralled out of control of Shar and fused with Torils Crystal Sphere to form the current active arcane powersource. It has remained independant of any dieties influence because it whent out of typical reach of the astral domains. |
| Sill Alias |
Posted - 27 May 2010 : 03:34:57
Still, theory of separate creation from Weave is broken by 4th edition. I think it is just Shar's thinking - 'My SW is independent from W, so why not destroy the opponent goddess without worrying about consequences?', which proved completely wrong. |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 26 May 2010 : 14:08:45
well its just a theory....and it does explain much.....from a purely theological perspective... |
| Dennis |
Posted - 26 May 2010 : 10:49:22
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
And I really don’t think she “created” the Shadow Weave, it makes no sense.
It is explicitly stated that Shar created the Shadow Weave, and that it took centuries for her to do so.
And, as I said, if it was a reflection, then the Shadow Weave would be affected by dead magic areas and wild magic areas. It is explicitly stated that it is not, since it is made from the dark spaces within the Weave.
I'm not trying to quash your creativity or anything, I'm just sticking to what has been written in published Realmslore.
I have to agree that shadow magic is unaffected by wild magic areas. If you review THE SUMMMONING, Melegaunt's shadow spells are NOT affected at all in the Dire Woods (a place of wild magic due to Karsus's lingering influence), compared to Elminster's that totally go awry.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 26 May 2010 : 00:57:20
quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
if anyone bothered to check....Selune created the weave when she tore the stuff of magic from her very substance and hurled it at her sister, Shar. When it passed through it tore the dark weave from Shar and thus true magic was born with the combination of the two halves of magic.....when karsus sundered Mystryl he shattered this bond and Shar took back what she had lost and the Selune (light side of the weave) was reinstated as Mystra, but it was only half of magic...so in effect the two light and shadow weave have always existed....thus to unite them....Ao had to allow Mystra to die,,,,,,,
It's an interesting theory, but it doesn't really jive with established Realmslore. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 May 2010 : 00:26:57
quote:
Originally posted by Snowblood
if anyone bothered to check....Selune created the weave when she tore the stuff of magic from her very substance and hurled it at her sister, Shar. When it passed through it tore the dark weave from Shar and thus true magic was born with the combination of the two halves of magic.....when karsus sundered Mystryl he shattered this bond and Shar took back what she had lost and the Selune (light side of the weave) was reinstated as Mystra, but it was only half of magic...so in effect the two light and shadow weave have always existed....thus to unite them....Ao had to allow Mystra to die,,,,,,,
So if that was all it took, then why didn't it happen earlier? Why didn't Mystra 1.0 reunite the Weave immediately, when she was bringing it back on line? Why didn't her death cause it to reunite? And why, when there were two Weave deities, did only one have to die to fix things?
Karsus didn't sunder Mystryl -- he just took her power. Look at it this way: if I grab the steering wheel while you're driving, I'm not going to do a good job driving the car -- but it's not going to split into two cars. |
| Snowblood |
Posted - 25 May 2010 : 13:46:26
if anyone bothered to check....Selune created the weave when she tore the stuff of magic from her very substance and hurled it at her sister, Shar. When it passed through it tore the dark weave from Shar and thus true magic was born with the combination of the two halves of magic.....when karsus sundered Mystryl he shattered this bond and Shar took back what she had lost and the Selune (light side of the weave) was reinstated as Mystra, but it was only half of magic...so in effect the two light and shadow weave have always existed....thus to unite them....Ao had to allow Mystra to die,,,,,,, |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 06:14:21
In 2E, we did that by casting Darkness, 15' radius, on a rock, and putting it in a hooded lantern. :) |
| kaeso |
Posted - 22 Jul 2006 : 05:57:57
So I was reading through the Tome of Magic.. and there's not too much fluff outside what's offered on the WotC preview. However, they do mention some kind of city that's actually lit- they described it as a sanctuary from the shadows. Does anyone know anything about it? Also, there was an item in the Tome... a lamp, that allows shadowy illumination. I just wanted to say, it was really cool! |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 06:11:11
quote:
Originally posted by kaeso
I was at work during the storm, and we have generators so we kept gaining and losing power. I live in the county, where a lot of us still have power. My house has power, but some of my co-workers do not. The city got hit hardest- over half a million people w/out power, living in brick inner-city buildings, and we're being gripped by a heat wave 
After the hurricanes of 2004, I know where you're coming from... But hey, I heard the weather is supposed to cool off tomorrow...
Anyway, enough threadjacking.  |
| kaeso |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 04:18:36
I was at work during the storm, and we have generators so we kept gaining and losing power. I live in the county, where a lot of us still have power. My house has power, but some of my co-workers do not. The city got hit hardest- over half a million people w/out power, living in brick inner-city buildings, and we're being gripped by a heat wave |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 03:57:19
quote:
Originally posted by kaeso
I couldn't go read through and/or buy the Tome of Magic today, I live in St. Louis, MO, USA, and we got hit with a huge storm last night that knocked out all the power. As a result, Borders was closed *cry* I'll go tomorrow I guess...
That storm knocked out power to our St. Louis location, too... Were you affected by it? |
| kaeso |
Posted - 21 Jul 2006 : 02:05:25
I couldn't go read through and/or buy the Tome of Magic today, I live in St. Louis, MO, USA, and we got hit with a huge storm last night that knocked out all the power. As a result, Borders was closed *cry* I'll go tomorrow I guess...
I really want to go through the Tome of Magic so I can get a better idea of the Plane of Shadow and its shadow users. I'll probably have more questions tomorrow. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 18:44:23
quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It is explicitly stated that Shar created the Shadow Weave, and that it took centuries for her to do so.
And, as I said, if it was a reflection, then the Shadow Weave would be affected by dead magic areas and wild magic areas. It is explicitly stated that it is not, since it is made from the dark spaces within the Weave.
I'm not trying to quash your creativity or anything, I'm just sticking to what has been written in published Realmslore.
I don't think you are...
I'll check out my books tonight to read up but from what my dim memory of the Shadow Weave tells me I remember the published material on the Shadow Weave bing more like in-game dogma (i.e. sage lore, legends) and less game mechanic mechanics...
I just think it wasn't all thought out and hope someone will clarify it in the future..if anything, how much of a power investment does it take to make a whole new Weave, even a lesser one? And why would Ao allow it? "Balancing" Mystra's good tendencies doesn't pan out as Midnight has only been a goddess for less than 30 years and the 1st Mystra was strict lawful neutral (even living in Mechanus, pure LN)
As I expected, you are right about the Shadow Weave 
But I still like my version better, there really isn't to much information about the weave except the game mechanics and "Shar for centuries" explanation...I still think that it is a pretty weak description 
|
| GothicDan |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 06:50:52
Well, technically, pleasure is just the absence of pain - or contentment is. So if you are on the Plane of Shadow and all of your basic needs are met, you're in a sort of completely neutral, peaceful state, which is exactly the kind of realm the above deity I thought up would like. :)
Also, I'd say that, yes, I think it would be possible for said deity to do such a thing. A deity of peace, solitude, mercy, etc. would probably be very handy as to the use of Enchantment and Illusion spells, and also probably Abjuration and Divination.
And in 2E.. The Demiplane of Shadow was a mixture of both Positive and Negative Energy. So I personally would change the Plane of Shadow in 3E to have both, since it isn't the Plane of Darkness (that's more like the Negative Energy Plane), but rather the Plane of SHADOW. Light AND darkness. |
| kaeso |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 06:42:13
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Well, the Shadow Plane numbs ALL emotions, good or evil. That could be taken to an evil extreme (such as in the Grey Wastes), but inherently it's not good or evil - so if you are taking that into account, that means it's no more likely for an evil deity to live there than a good one.
I could very well see a NG deity of Shadows, Shade, Mercy, Peace, Solitude, and Silence living there, perhaps from a pantheon arising from inhabitants of a cruel desert.
Look at every possible angle. It's fun. :)
I was thinking it would be more likely for an evil diety to be there because pain is one of the few things that isn't nulled down, and I figured that would appeal to an evil deity who has sadistic tendencies.
I reeeeally like your reasons why a good diety would live there. If one did, is it possible that he/she could craft shadow to make a kind of shadow paradise? (I'm kind of thinking of the overall idea of the abilities of the shadowcrafter from the Underdark)
Also, I know there are areas of the shadow plane where negative energy has an effect- would the permanent presence of a good deity cause positive energy to have an effect in that area? |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 06:18:17
Well, the Shadow Plane numbs ALL emotions, good or evil. That could be taken to an evil extreme (such as in the Grey Wastes), but inherently it's not good or evil - so if you are taking that into account, that means it's no more likely for an evil deity to live there than a good one.
I could very well see a NG deity of Shadows, Shade, Mercy, Peace, Solitude, and Silence living there, perhaps from a pantheon arising from inhabitants of a cruel desert.
Look at every possible angle. It's fun. :) |
| kaeso |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 05:55:53
So if there was a good deity who involved shadow magic, how likely would he/she be to live on teh shadow plane? I mean, it would make sense if they did, but with the shadow plane being what it is- a plane where "Emotions are as muted as colors -- love and hate, joy and sorrow, mirth and mourning are all less potent, less expressive. Only true needs -- hunger, thirst, exhaustion, and pain -- remain undiminished." I'm not so sure a good deity of shadow would choose to live there. So, where would a good deity of shadow dwell? (Note: I'm not sure what your opinions are on the standard D&D multiverse and the less-standard Faerunian multiverse- lets just assume both are valid ) |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 04:20:57
Darn them. :) |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 20 Jul 2006 : 03:31:42
Agreed. But these books are written by humans, and it's often difficult for people to let go of prejudices that have been passed down for so long. |
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