| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| varyar |
Posted - 24 Jun 2006 : 22:33:55
What were dark elves like before they became drow? Not just culturally, although I'm curious about that (I see them as like the stereotypical sun elves, and then some), but physically? They didn't always have the black skin and white hair before being cast down, if I'm not mistaken. Is there any canon information about them in the good ol' days? |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Cbad285 |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 09:20:46
I swear I read somewhere that the dark elves were dusky or brown skinned with pale yellow hair. and they lived (partially) in the jungles of chult.
Where did I read this from I wonder... |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 06:53:20
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It's been 9 years... I'm not sure the people you're responding to are still around to see your response.
On this subject? Come on. All it changes is that maybe there won't appear one more thread - if whoever would start it looks here within a month or so.  |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 05:22:45
It's been 9 years... I'm not sure the people you're responding to are still around to see your response. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 26 Aug 2015 : 03:50:55
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
When talking about this stuff about the Ilythirii using fire magic that was blasphemous to elven nature etc etc people seem to forget(or I might have missed something) that the Ilythirii started with that tactic after the Dark Disaster(sent by the sun elves) which wiped out all of Miyeritar. I`m sorry, but a big necromantic cloud that destroyed a whole nation seems a far worse crime to me than using fire magic.
Well, yes.
But "a worse crime" cannot be a factor. It was over the top in one case - the everlasting curse already supposed to be blanket even before it got out of control. And just as downplayed in another, because when the Elven Court agreed to shift all the blame to the ruling clan alone and let everyone else off the hook in an empire that gradually conquered half of the continent? Unless they were reproducing like rabbits, it comes across as a travesty of justice so grand and bald-faced, that even in our world it's outstripped only by XX Party Congress of CPSU, and only because that time not only blood-drenched organizers of multiple mass murders were allowed to make big eyes and chirp about how "deceived" they were, but also some of them led the ball themselves.
So it cannot be about justice.
Yet, Ilythiir was to be stopped ASAP and elves were advised to band against them right after the news about them misbehaving spread, while Aryvandaar was allowed to conquer all it could catch before the Elven Court was called...
There must be a very important difference.
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
It was performed by the Vyshaanti High Magi - you know, the ones who were corrupted by Malkazid.
Who were all sentenced to death.
Here we go: one obvious important factor is that Ilythiir began to turn away from Seldarine en masse, and in Aryvandaar only Vyshaan clan had dealings with the enemies of Seldarine.
If this indeed was the criterion, the approach was entirely consistent: condemnation of both groups was done in the same "err on the safe side - burn all the crops" broad sweep: the whole Ilythiir and the whole Vyshaan clan.
quote:
The vast majority of Sun Elves never had any clue this happened, even the Aryvandaarians. In previous editions, it wasn't even pinned down as to who did it. It was all a huge, terrible mystery.
Indeed.  "And the serious people will just ask: 'qui bono?'. And that's it."©
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| The Sage |
Posted - 07 Jul 2006 : 10:49:09
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
A supplement all about the Crown Wars would be really, really awesome. But, if I recall correctly, WotC isn't all that hyped about really delving in depth into events that do not directly affect the lives of adventurers today (no ancient things, no godly affairs, etc.).
But I hope someone at WotC (freelancing or salaried) manages to slip something in, eventually.
Which is likely the case at some point. George and Eric have told us on numerous occasions that their work-ups for particular aspects of the Realms often go long periods of just sitting around on their harddrives until, with the proposal for a new sourcebook, the potential to drop one or two tidbits into the new source material becomes apparent. They may not always get everything they want in, but some lore is always better than none at all in my opinion.
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| GothicDan |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 22:53:40
Ohhh yeah. :)
What I'd give for a Lost Empires of Faerun II.. and III... And so on. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 22:30:52
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
A supplement all about the Crown Wars would be really, really awesome. But, if I recall correctly, WotC isn't all that hyped about really delving in depth into events that do not directly affect the lives of adventurers today (no ancient things, no godly affairs, etc.).
Unless it's "ancient things somehow coming back to live in the present".  |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 21:40:35
A supplement all about the Crown Wars would be really, really awesome. But, if I recall correctly, WotC isn't all that hyped about really delving in depth into events that do not directly affect the lives of adventurers today (no ancient things, no godly affairs, etc.).
But I hope someone at WotC (freelancing or salaried) manages to slip something in, eventually. |
| khorne |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 21:38:08
So do I. Fervently. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 03:44:17
I hope so, George. :) |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 04 Jul 2006 : 03:22:05
We don't know anything about the High Magic ritual which transformed the dark elves other than that it happened and all dark elves were affected. Given what Elaine wrote about the High Magic ritual which culminated in the Sundering, and made it clear that its final effect and form wasn't controlled by its casters, hypothetically the same thing could have been done with the Descent of the Drow ritual. They may not have intended for all dark elves to be affected in the fashion they were, but lost control of the ritual due to its sheer size and scope. Ever since, enlightened elves (such as some of the Coronals of Cormanthyr) have recognised that not all drow are evil and have accomodated them accordingly - likely knowing that their progenitors, the dark elves, were not all evil also and that some sort of penance or acknowledgement of their eons old mistake was required. The story of the dark elves is missing a few chapters. Mayhap they'll be discovered soon.
-- George Krashos
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| GothicDan |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 22:59:25
Interesting that some of the historical figures in history best known for the use of scrolls - the Greeks - wrote a lot about philosophy, literature, and fiction. No facts. ;)
Oh, and another factual note..
quote:
Other then the Dark Disaster the only other proof of Gold being eliv (or at least not pure) is the moonblades because every Gold that tried for one died.
Elaine has pointed out that, regardless of whether they were Good or Evil, Gold Elves could not wield Moonblades. :) It was a purely mystical quality, it seems. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 22:31:41
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Scrolls herein are to provide lore, not opinions without facts.
I have to disagree here, that's why we have the Sages of Realmslore section and since this isn't that section and it's the General FR Discussion section, then people can supply their opinions without facts. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 22:25:18
We are starting ti run out of printed facts. Not sure I am included in circular discussion, though I may have repeated some items, also tried to provide new items. There is not much to add though. The Gold as a whole should not be branded as Evil and were not punished for the acts of some leaders, OTOH it appears all Dark Elves were punished for the actions of thier leaders (Yes this statement is repeativive). In many ways there is not much lore to add to the thread. It comes down to opinions on what was just. I think in many ways about all that can be said on the matter has been said until a new canon is provided.
Disagreements in interpertation can still exist, but it is getting close to just exchange of opinions insterd of exchange of lore. Scrolls herein are to provide lore, not opinions without facts. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 22:07:26
Arkhaedun, can you please explain why this is a circular discussion?
We are bringing up opinions and printed facts, and then debating them. There's no one getting personal or using disrespectful grammar.
I'm really not trying to be snarky, but I was unaware of the fact that such discussions were not sanctioned by the Candlekeep mods.
PS: Note that I am asking this in public, not via PMs, because there are multiple people engaging in the discussion. :) |
| Arkhaedun |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 21:45:49
This thread is really starting to turn into a circular arguement. Either we should find something new to discuss here, or those interested in continuing this should take it to PMs. Thanks all.
If you have any questions or concerns, please PM me. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 20:59:03
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
High Magic could well have come from a single House as powerful as the Vyshaanti. :)
It is indeed posible that the Dark disaster was a result of High Mages from House Vyshaanti alone, we however also know both Dark and Green High Mages entered the storm to try to dispell it (never to be seen again).quote:
And I'm frankly a bit weary of people complaining about how all Dark Elves were banished along with the Ilythiiri.
First of all, how do we even know that that's what the Elves intended? If anything, I think Lolth manipulated the Ritual so that she could get her claws into ALL Dark Elves.
We are told that only the Ilythiiri were the target of the prays, not the Miyeritar.quote:
And second of all, how many good/neutral Dark Elves were there at the time? As I've said, we only have ONLY one major source of Dark Elven populace - and that was Ilythiir.
Apparently a lot of them in Miyeritar, that took refuge status in other Elven nations. We do not know how many elves were killed as a Result of the Dark Dister but we do know there were survivors. We even know that Eilistraee had some Ilythiiri followers.quote:
And I'll also note that Illefarn was never portrayed as an "Evil" Realm. It wasn't even the Aryvandaarians who did it, as Kentinal pointed out, and they are the ones who tend to get all of the blame for everything that had ever happened during the Crown War.
Other then the Dark Disaster the only other proof of Gold being eliv (or at least not pure) is the moonblades because every Gold that tried for one died.
It should be noted that part of the fustration Dark Elves might harbor is that the Seldarine applied a widesweeping change on all Dark Elves (even those that oposed the Ilythiiri) were forced to desend, that the Gold (espcially the Vyshaanti) were not directly punished for their acts. The test of the sword was on a voluntree base, no Gold had to touch it. Only those in first instance that were not considered suitable died. I still believe that some Green should have a Moonblade. Perhaps even a few good Dark Elves.
My complaint stems from a lack of justice in how the two subraces were treated. Many (there is no official numbers of any race, or a breakdown of alignment) Dark Elves were forced from the surface that likely had nothing to do with the Crown Wars. All the Gold lost were a few heirs to their Houses. There is a big difference between the treatment between the two subraces.
It is unlikely there will be more canon coming forth concerning this ancient war, though it might be interesting to see a novel (or series) about Eilistraee and her develpment and followers from the time she acepted exile to current timeline. Good Drow do have some popularity so a book might sell well, tell Eilistraee's story after all WotSQ told Lolth's.
Often answers given can cause more questions something WotC perhaps does not desire. They of course need to look at the bottom line as well. If there is enough interest, perhaps we will so more about other good Drow within the next three years. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 20:09:16
High Magic could well have come from a single House as powerful as the Vyshaanti. :)
And I'm frankly a bit weary of people complaining about how all Dark Elves were banished along with the Ilythiiri.
First of all, how do we even know that that's what the Elves intended? If anything, I think Lolth manipulated the Ritual so that she could get her claws into ALL Dark Elves.
And second of all, how many good/neutral Dark Elves were there at the time? As I've said, we only have ONLY one major source of Dark Elven populace - and that was Ilythiir.
And I'll also note that Illefarn was never portrayed as an "Evil" Realm. It wasn't even the Aryvandaarians who did it, as Kentinal pointed out, and they are the ones who tend to get all of the blame for everything that had ever happened during the Crown War. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 14:08:46
quote:
-10110 Elf clerics and high mages in Illefarn begin a decades-long prayer for salvation.
-10000 The Seldarine respond to the arcane and divine high magic of the elves by smiting the Ilythiiri. All dark elves are transformed into drow and driven underground, thus ending the Fourth Crown War.
Illefarn was a nation of sun, moon and wood elves with many shield dwarves besides. Dark elves can not blame Gold Elves for the creation of Drow. The blame for this appears to either most of the fair elves or the Seldarine. The Gold elves more clearly are responsible for the Dark Disater though canon I believe still leaves a bit of a question mark on this event. High magic that likely did not just come from one house, though that is posible as well.
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| khorne |
Posted - 03 Jul 2006 : 13:26:48
The Ilythirii were ONE nation of dark elves, but all the dark elves were punished for their sins. This is something I have never forgiven the other elves for. Maybe some people who are angry about this have projected their anger at the sun elves because they need to lash out at someone they hold responsible for this. I don`t know how many people are like that, I at least. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 03:42:41
I'm an idiot. You're right, of course, Rino. Starym. :)
The true heir to the Starym Clan... Who never showed up again after seeking the Artblade. *sad* |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 03:42:02
quote:
Originally posted by El Magnifico Uno
And given FRs take on large power structures (*coughFlowerPowercough*) saying that the Gold Elves were ambitious and powerful is hardly beneficial to their cause.
 How so? There's nothing inherently wrong with being ambitious and powerful. Most heroes in the Realms are "powerful", and often want more power--no one seems to think there is anything wrong with that. Besides, aren't humble heroes a cliche by now?
Also, I think you are wrong in saying that established lore paints good sun elves as the exceptions. If that's the case, they wouldn't be lumped with all the other surface elves alignment-wise (as mostly good). |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 03:37:07
quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Josidiah Durothil: Went on the quest to recover the Artblade.
He was a Starym. But still a gold elf. :) |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 03:33:36
From 2nd Edition
quote:
Major Centers of Worship: Before the elven Crown Wars, Eilisrraee's faith was strong in Miyeritar, and she had small numbers of faithful in Ilythiir and the other elven realms of the time. The Dark Disaster, unleashed during the Third Crown War, transformed Miyeritar into the blasted wasteland now known as the High Moor and dealt a devastating blow to the ranks of the Dark Maiden's followers. When the Ilythiiri were transformed into the drow and banished from the sunlit lands at the end of the Fourth Crown War some five hundred years later, Eilistraee's church effectively collapsed and was not reformed for millennia. A few ancient, sacred sites of power built before the Crown Wars survive in the Misty Forest, along the borders of the High Moor, and in the Shar, scattered across the onceverdant savannah.
Other lore clearly indicates that all Dark Elves were transformed regardless of aligned nature, including any surviving Miyeritar dark elves.
In some ways this is going in circles, I agree not all Gold Elves are evil, just have a lore indicating some major (in Elven History) remembered Evil acts to them. The followers of the Dark Maiden punished for no just reason has no place in Elven history except as evil. We will never know of what power struggles took place in those ancient realms that allowed House Vyshaantito rule one empire, we know even less about the Dark elf and green elf Houses that fought against a gold/sun elf empire.
I suspect many Dark Elves fought against the evil Ilythiiri leaders of just as much as they fought against the evil leaders of Aryvandaar and all that followed thier orders.
At best the Gold came out better in the resoliotion, no Gold could weild a ruler blade (later called moonblades because no sun elf survived contact, I still wonder if a Green elf might have one or more). The good Dark Elves were not even invited to the party to try, some spin it as High magic gone awry again, however this makes little sense as the Desesent was (at least) reported to be direct Divine action as oposed to High Magic error factor (deities do not have spell failure). |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 02:43:40
quote:
Named NPCs are a bare fraction of any race make up. Sometimes they are the exception sometimes they are the rule.
In this case, these examples support the rule. That's my point. The Evil Sun Elves are the exceptions.
quote:
The history of the Drark Elves during the crown war has few if any good named NPCs, but Eilistraee had (according to canon) a strong following before the Dark Disaster.
Out of pure curiosity, where does this come from? I'm not saying it's not true, I was just unaware of the fact. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 02:37:48
Named NPCs are a bare fraction of any race make up. Sometimes they are the exception sometimes they are the rule.
The history of the Drark Elves during the crown war has few if any good named NPCs, but Eilistraee had (according to canon) a strong following before the Dark Disaster. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 01:27:12
But there's really no interpretation here... I crunched the actual numbers from all 1E and 2E Elven NPCs published with specific subraces listed. The Sun Elves are only marginally (~6-7%) "more evil" than the Moon Elves, as printed.
Sigh. :(
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| El Magnifico Uno |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 00:49:54
quote:
Is it just because they're not analyzing the facts enough?
Partially, yes.. In the overall scheme, no.. It's a contrast of specific examples versus large over-reaching themes.. In any case, you are correct, the Gold Elves shouldn't be viewed as evil, and yet they still are viewed that way.. That's just the way people interpret it.. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 02 Jul 2006 : 00:24:31
Where does the established lore implicate ALL Gold Elves in major naughty events?
The Crown Wars: Specifically relegated to the ranks of the Vyshaanti, a single Gold Elf clan.
Attack on Evermeet: A very minority of Gold Elves actually betrayed the Queen; in the Evermeet supplement, it says that the rest of the Gold Elves will NEVER forgive themselves for this.
Eldreth Veluuthra: There are under 100 members, not all of which are Gold Elves by far.
Fey'ri: ONE major house, and a bunch of minor ones.
No where near the majority of Gold Elves have been implicated in major events. And out of ALL of the above events, I wouldn't call any but the Crown Wars and Evermeet even remotely large-scale.
So, I really want to know, why are people thinking this? Is it just because they're not analyzing the facts enough? |
| El Magnifico Uno |
Posted - 01 Jul 2006 : 23:50:09
Ahhh... Well bummer, was sorta hoping for something a bit more large scale.. Therein lies the explanation of "Gold Elf evil".. Your positive examples are of individuals or smalls groups, whereas established lore implicates ALL Gold Elves (unfairly IMHO) in some pretty major naughty events.. Sadly the individual examples are (incorrectly IMHO) interpreted as exceptions while the big events are viewed as the norm.. And given FRs take on large power structures (*coughFlowerPowercough*) saying that the Gold Elves were ambitious and powerful is hardly beneficial to their cause.. Regardless, the Gold Elves definitely need ALOT more positive propoganda in historical RSEs.. Would go a long way in dismissing the the "evil Sun Elf" myth.. |
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