| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| zemd |
Posted - 19 Mar 2003 : 22:26:06
Well, in an other topic Bookwyrm and me were discussing about the relations between the mythologies (Celtics, Egyptian, ...) and Faerun.
So to keep the work of Alaundo easier i post a new topic  |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 30 Jul 2003 : 16:13:05
I guess I'll go take a look at them soon, then.
And by the way, I wasn't refering to anything in D&D, just explaining that Tiamat wasn't made up just for that; she's from real myth.
Yes, I know that's an oxymoron.  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Jul 2003 : 06:12:17
The Goddess Takhisis (Tiamat), is now regarded as a completely separate entity from the standard D&D pantheon which includes Tiamat. The same can also be said of Bahamut and Paladine. Once 3e had started, all four of these deities were considered separate entities. Therefore the Tiamat, of the Realms is not the same Tiamat of Krynn.
Bookwyrm said -
quote:
I don't know as much about Sumerian myth as I do of others (and I tend to be more curious about non-human, non-deity creatures) but I would have recognized several names.
The mythology of the Sumerian/Babylonian pantheon is one of my favorites, especially when considering such grand tales as the Epic of Gilgamesh, and the story behind Ishtar (Inanna) and Tammuz (Dumuzi).
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 28 Jul 2003 : 03:31:33
I meant to ask what the names of the gods were, but looks like Sage answered it pretty quickly. Now, if I only had had my books with me, that wouldn't have happened.  I don't know as much about Sumerian myth as I do of others (and I tend to be more curious about non-human, non-deity creatures) but I would have recognized several names.
Tiamat, for instance: though most famous around here for her misdeeds on Krynn, she got her start as the five-dragon-headed goddess of the ancient Mesopotamian region. When I read the original trilogy to the Dragonlance setting, that was one of the things that made me interested enough to read all three. (Not enough to continue, though.) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Jul 2003 : 02:53:32
Malanthius said -
quote:
If the Mulhorandi are Egyption, what was the Untherite pantheon from?
Sumerian/Babylonian
Bookwyrm said -
quote:
What part of Faerun are they from?
The Untherite pantheon are from the realm of Unther, in the south of the Realms, and to the left of Mulhorand.
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 28 Jul 2003 : 02:40:24
What part of Faerun are they from? |
| Malanthius |
Posted - 27 Jul 2003 : 21:55:03
Was looking through this old scroll and a question popped into my head, If the Mulhorandi are Egyption, what was the Untherite pantheon from?
Mal. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 04 Jun 2003 : 06:05:38
Yes, I know. It's a failing of mine. I just wanted to acknowledge the mistake before someone else did.  |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 04 Jun 2003 : 00:08:46
I just thought that you meant the Mulhorandi WERE egyptian...
You shouldn't of said anything
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 03 Jun 2003 : 10:00:28
Okay. I'm embarrassed. In a post on the last page, I referred to both Mulhorand and to the 'Egyptian'-style pantheon and culture. Now, granted, I did this in a not-so-obvious way, but I'm still surprised no one caught it. I could have just left it like that and hoped no one noticed, but it's like a spelling or grammer mistake. I just have to edit the reply, or else I feel like a poser.
So, I just wanted to say that, until I noticed the contents of Faiths and Pantheons, I thought that Mulhorand was the Oriental part of Toril. I know it's supposed to be Kara-Tur, but I thought it was just something that they'd changed. Or something. I'd never heard of Mulhorand before coming here.
 Hopefully I don't loose my new rank over this . . . . |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 07:03:02
I have to agree with you both Bookwyrm, and Mournblade.
I like to especially study elements of natural philosophy looking for basic aspects of an elementalism, and other similar aspects of the D&D world. For perspectives in some campaigns though, especially aspects such as cosmology or astronomical concerns for some fantasy worlds nothing beats reading over some of the old pre-socratics, and the sophists too. This is particularly necessary when your campaign involves the planes, and alternate material dimensions.
Very interesting indeed .
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 05:08:22
Same here, Mournblade. Best way to find out things about people is to know what their explanations for the 'whys' of the world are. That doesn't have to be mythology, it's also natural philosophy. Ever studied the history of science? Fascinating subject. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 30 May 2003 : 04:55:32
Thanks Tombo that is just something more for me to ponder. One thing I like to do is dissect my hobbies and find out the history/origins of everything. I love poring over old D&D publications to get the perspective of where it all originated from, and how it changes through time, and how it changes from history to fantasy. |
| Tombo |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 13:16:07
Yes Bookwyrm, literally translated that is correct. But in religous circles (Christian at least) it is loosely understood to mean the "first and the last".
I wasn't sure if this is where he came up with AO's name but while reading the Avatar Trilogy I was trying to think of where the name came from (since most of the others came from somewhere). That's the first thing that came to my mind. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 07:27:29
That's okay Bookwyrm, I thought I would just give you more work and more books to read .
Oh, and Mournblade, I'd still like to hear about how this campaign of your works out.
May your learning be free and unfettered
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 06:52:42
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by Tombo
I noticed nobody had anything to say about AO. I'm guessing that his name was derived from "The Alpha and the Omega". In the bible, God is referred to in this way. It means the first and the last.
WOW I NEVER thought of that! That is interesting I wonder if what you say IS true? That is a great twist, kind of like Illuvatar form the Silmarillion. Hmmm thanks TOmbo, you give us something to Ponder Once again!!!
Um . . . it's been observed before on here, by a chap named Bellua Aeneus Lacerta. (I love that name -- it's actually a riddle, so to speak.)
[Bookwyrm does a little rumaging, then pops back up with a scroll.] Ah, yes, here it is.
By the way, Tombo -- it doesn't actually mean "first and last." It's a metaphor. It's same as saying "A to Z" -- they were the equivalents to that in the Greek alphabet. (The word for which we also get from the same system, a combination of "alpha" and "beta.") It was used in that way because at the time of Christ, the "language of learning" was Greek, and was known by anyone who was someone; same as the sophisticated (which, ironically, means the "wise ones") used to learn French as a matter of course.
Oh, and Sage, I have those. (Courtesy of Artalis, of course. Incidentally, is anyone getting tired of me singing his praises? ) The thing is, he sent me so much, I'm skipping back and forth trying to get it all. It's typical of me -- trying to learn it all right away. Besides, I've got to catch up to the rest of you all. |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 04:19:21
Sage if THOR is successful in usurping part of Faerun I would not have it affect his ASGARD status. I kind of take into account that gods have aspects on different planes that are all self aware and independent but still one being. Tyr's Divine rank is 15 according to MIDGARD mythology, and Divine Rank 18 According to Realms Cosmology. If THor enters the realm, he will not decrease in power and will retain his Divine rank of 18 making him more powerful than Talos but on par with tyr. In realms cosmology Tyr and Thor would be equal, whereas in Asgard THOR is Clearly superior. I am having trouble explaining this, but when they are in Odin's meadhall, Thor will be Tyr's superior, but when the gods of the realms are meeting, Thor and Tyr are equals, and Tyr will be treated as such.
I love the fantasy cosmologies, they are so abstract and open to interpretation.
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| Mournblade |
Posted - 29 May 2003 : 00:45:32
quote:
Originally posted by Tombo
I noticed nobody had anything to say about AO. I'm guessing that his name was derived from "The Alpha and the Omega". In the bible, God is referred to in this way. It means the first and the last.
WOW I NEVER thought of that! That is interesting I wonder if what you say IS true? That is a great twist, kind of like Illuvatar form the Silmarillion. Hmmm thanks TOmbo, you give us something to Ponder Once again!!!
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| Tombo |
Posted - 28 May 2003 : 19:29:56
I noticed nobody had anything to say about AO. I'm guessing that his name was derived from "The Alpha and the Omega". In the bible, God is referred to in this way. It means the first and the last. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 May 2003 : 07:16:55
This sounds great Mournblade, there are a lot of possibilities here.
It seems as though Thor is about to be either a much more significant power in the Realms, or a much more serious threat. You could go either way. I don't think alot of the Realms pantheon will enjoy the fundamental shift in power that you are detailing. It will definitely be interesting to see whether or not this 'power-grab' may presage a struggle for dominance among the pantheon, a gods' war for lack of a better term.
Just as a side note - in the Planescape campaign setting A DM Guide to the Planes, it makes mention of the fact that both Thor and Loki actually rival Odin in terms of power, but the total strength and balance the three gods represent is needed to preserve their realm within Ysgard's physical chaos. I wonder what effect Thor gaining a quota of extra power from gaining a new portfolio will have on the balance of power holding Ysgard together?. Interesting.
If you are planning to make notes, I would be interested to hear how the campaign plays out, it sounds very interesting.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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| Mournblade |
Posted - 27 May 2003 : 22:03:02
Currently I am working on the campaign involving Thor. Basically EVERY druid on the planet knows SOMETHING is weird. For example when there are storms, the Druids sense something is amiss, but it is not a feeling of storms being more violent or evil, just that the storms are 'struggling' in some way, as if the lightning does not 'know' where to strike. The druids can sense that each thunderbolt is a protest to something. This is due to Thor's influence slowly seeping in through the planes. Talos priests are having their damage dice reduced by 1 on all electricity spells. They don't QUITE notice it, but they can tell something is not right. Currently there are priests of THOR on Faerun who are secretive but actually getting power from TYR. There is a new race of Mountain Dwarves (well exactly the same RACE, just from a different place) who worship THor as well. If this all falls to fruition, then Talos will be reduced in power, and THor will come in as a god of Deity rank 16 just as he is in the Deities and Demigods. Thor is Vying for the portfolio of Thunder, Lightning, and Storms, and he is going to attempt to add a portfolio as well, formerly held by his son Magni...Strength. Talos will retain Destruction and Violence, rebellion, etcetera, he will just lose storms. I am currently trying to figure out how the OTHER gods feel about it. Just because a god is good does not mean they will support Thor. When summer comes and I am not working as much this should all get fleshed out:)
I did this once before with a god from Michael Moorcock's Elric. Arioch attempted to enter the realms as God of Chaos and completely DESTROY Talos. However, the Players influence caused some of Arioch's agents to get defeated, and Talos defeated Arioch, forever banishing him from the Realms. The players did not care either way, because both deities were Chaotic Evil. But they were fighting for TAlos because they already knew how to deal with that evil. One Paladin in the group actually WORKED with some Priests of Talos to ward off Arioch. I don't have electronics on this, unfortunately. As of now I am putting my new stuff on disc, but my campaign goes back too 1988, so I don't have them all on file.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 27 May 2003 : 10:11:35
Bookwyrm, you may wish to pick up the 2e FR game accessory Demi-human Deities for some great mythological information concerning the deities for the others race of the Realms. Also you can download the 2e Legends & Lore here, it's a great work that combines real-world mythology to the D&D game. Here's the description posted on the WotC website -
There comes a desperate moment when every hero looks skyward in search of divine favor, when he raises his arms to the heavens and calls upon the cruel fates to spare his life. Who hears him? Legends & Lore is a compendium of possible answers. It provides AD&D game statistics and role-playing details for dozens of deities from the pantheons of eleven different cultures. Included in this book are sections on the mythoi of the American Indians, Aztecs, Celts, Chinese, Egyptians, Greeks, Indians, Japanese, and Norse peoples. In addition, there are sections detailing the tales of King Arthur and the gods of Fritz Leiber's Nehwon.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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| The Sage |
Posted - 27 May 2003 : 07:11:39
Yes Mournblade, I was aware of the connection between the D&D World Tree and the mythological Yggdrasil from Norse mythology. In the Planewalker's Handbook, I recall that it mentions something of this nature, describing the World Tree as belonging to a Norse pantheon from the Outer Planes, or an alternate Prime Material Plane. There's more to it than that, but since I'm at work, I don't have access to the book. I'll check when I get home and try and post some details.
Also, I would have to agree with Bookwyrm. I would also appreciate any material on file that you may have, if your willing to share it. I regularly use mythological aspects in many of my D&D games regardless of the setting. One of my favorite books to use, is the Dictionary of Mythological Beasts, I can't remember the author.
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 27 May 2003 : 05:09:36
Didn't I say that it was from Norse mythology?
[Bookwyrm turns back a page to check.]
Heh. Um, oops?
Mournblade, do you have any of this stuff on a file, and if so can I look at it? I love that sort of thing. Shake 'em up and see what comes out! |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 27 May 2003 : 03:33:23
I trust that everyone knows that Yggdrasil is the World tree from Norse Mythology. If this is the case, then shouldn't there exist a Norse presence in the campaign world? Currently in my FR campaign, Thor has heard of Faerun from TYR and is currently attempting to Usurp Part of Talos' portfolio of Storms. The church of Tyr is supporting this in attempt to reduce Talos's power. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 May 2003 : 10:54:32
It should be remembered that the World Tree is really not an actual tree in the traditional sense, but rather a series of planar portals and pathways being part of a great tree, much like the River Styx and River Oceanus, they are both in actuality planar pathways for journeys across the myriad planes, merged with the actual phenomenon they represent.
The Planewalker's Handbook states clearly that anybody can use the World Tree to travel to any plane that the World Tree has portals to, but advises that those unknowledgeable about how the Tree's portals work, should seek the help of guides.
All travel on the World Tree occurs on the outside, and across the huge branches and roots, large enough for PC's to climb on as well
It has also been said, that no one has ever recorded or traced all the different paths that the Tree has.
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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| unixx |
Posted - 26 May 2003 : 10:29:29
hey i got a question. if druids can travel through trees and yggdrasil touches all planes, and druid found the tree could they tavel to any plane they wanted? uh,*goes cross eyed* i think that one might keep me up awhile. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 26 May 2003 : 07:16:03
Your are correct Bookwyrm. The World Tree is from the Planescape Campaign Setting.
Yggdrasil, the World Tree, or World Ash is a gigantic plane-spanning tree. It's base lies on the first layer of the plane of Ysgard, but it's branches, roots and leaves spread throughout the entirety of all the realms and layers of the planes. It is also said that some branches of the World Tree extend far enough into some Material Planes. Yggdrasil is considered to be one of the four main and best known planar pathways.
This information is summarised from the Planewalker's Handbook
Good learning...
- The Sage of Perth: For all your Realms Lore needs
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| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 26 May 2003 : 03:24:07
Oh, and here's another thing that I just remembered, that I don't believe anyone's said yet (or not explicitly):
Yggdrasil, the World Tree, the tree on which all planes of existance are suspended. As I recall, there's a World Tree somewhere in D&D. (Is it Planescape? I only ran into it in the Undermountain modual someone made and put on this site.)
There's also the Child of Yggdrasil, in Tangled Webs. |
| Bookwyrm |
Posted - 26 May 2003 : 03:18:47
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
It was written in the myths that Tyr was the only god brave enough to feed Fenris (since vikings thought ANY man would lose in battle against a wolf).
Here's the version I first heard. The Asgard gods wanted to imprision Fenris, a giant wolf, but Fenris was so strong that they were having difficulty finding something that would hold him. They were trying to fool him by saying they were testing his strength. By the time they obtained some magical, darkalfin (gnomes or dwarves) -forged chains, Fenris was getting suspicious. He demanded that if it was really on the up-and-up, then Tyr, as the most honorable, had to hold his hand between his jaws. The rest you can figure out.
quote:
ALL of Mulhorandi (EVEN the stories!!!)
You're telling me! Couldn't they have mixed some things up, just for variety? Just taking it wholesale and sticking it in the Realms isn't exactly the largest stroke of imagination. I've got the same problem with Aztecs/Toltecs in Maztica and the Egyptians discribed in The Star of Cursrah. I don't have nearly as much of a problem with other types (such as the Celts of the Moonshaes) since there's more creativity there.
quote:
2. BHAAL was written in ancient myths around the Sumerian times. He wasa violent god but I have no idea if he was the Lord of Murder. OR even a god for that matter, I can't remember what book I read it in but he might of just been a king.
He was a god. He's even mentioned in the Bible. As for the murder bit, he's very famous in archeology as the focus of a very bloody religion. He was around as late as the early Roman era. However, he had been demoted to the status of a mere cult, mostly focused in Carthage.
That, actually, was the (official) reason for the Romans to attack and completely destroy that city. They even "sowed the ground with salt" to make sure that it wouldn't be fertile ground for a few years.
A lot of people thought that this was just an exageration, trumped up by the Romans as justification. However, sometime in the last century (the 20th was when archeological focus really got going) someone actually excavated a furnace-altar dedicated to Bhaal where they found the charred bones of dozens of human infants.
Go Romans. 
(Oh, by the way, does anyone know about a Celtic god of the same name? I don't know how it's spelled, but it sounds exactly the same. I heard it in a PBS show a few years back, and it's always stuck with me.)
quote:
7. Silvanus the GREEN man and essentially the head of the Celtic Panthoen
Who, according to some tales, was nowhere near as nice as the FR version. I'm pretty sure that's mostly from the Christians trying to show the evil in the pagan, Celtic religions. They did a lot of that in those areas. Instead of saying they aren't real, Jesus is better, we're more fun, etc, like they're supposed to do, they painted most of the Celtic deities (at least the male ones, anyway) as Aspects Of The Devil. 
As a result, very little archeological evidence remains for many of them, even when you take into acount the scarcity of literacy in that area. Even the Roman accounts are hard to find. Did you know that the image of Satan as a hooved, horned, and tailed monster is actually from the Celts of Britan and Ireland? They were so successful about spreading that image as Extreme Evil that we not only have no record of what this guy's name was, we don't even know what he stood for! He could have been an evil guy, but for all we know he could have been a male fertility god.
quote:
8. We cannot forget Tyche the ROMAN god of luck, that eventually split to form Tymora and Beshaba.
Indeed not. Though I prefer to think of her as Greek -- that's where 99.9% of Roman mythology came from. I didn't know that they kept the name, though. Usually the names changed.
I suppose I'm going to have to break down and study Greek/Roman mythology in more depth. I usually do everything else first, though; since [i]everyone[i] does Classical mythology, I want to pay attention to other things.
quote:
I love that Ed Greenwood arranged the cosmology this way for it blends in PERFECT with my concept of all the worlds being part of a grand layered multiverse!
Indeed! Let the fun commence! |
| Mournblade |
Posted - 25 May 2003 : 16:46:33
quote:
Originally posted by Leona
The one which irks me most was they borrowed Tyr from Norse Mythology, blinded him, and turned him into a god of law and justice when he once was the god of battles.
Don't be too upset at this Leona! He ALSO had one hand because Fenris the wolf but his hand off when the gods were tyring to bind him in chains. It was written in the myths that Tyr was the only god brave enough to feed Fenris (since vikings thought ANY man would lose in battle against a wolf).
TYR: From Forgotten Realms Boxed set 1st ed: "Tyr is a new faith appearing in the FR within the past thousand years. Tyr is likely the being of the same name found in Norse Mythos. Though no other power of that realm are present, and Tyr is portrayed as a god of justice and not war."
Tyr is a god of Justice, Tacitus the roman writer (journalist?) wrote that the Norse would leave him HUMAN sacrifices, in the pursuit of justice (what a great contradiction). BUT Mars was the god of war, and occasionally there were human sacrifices given to him. Because of this Tacitus and other Romans equated Tyr with Mars (Ares) Interesting. According to Deities and Demigods (Tyr is LG, Ares is CE)yet they were equated:) Anyone want to return to the Alignment scroll?
So Tyr WAS a god of JUSTICE and also a god of WAR. But one must remember.. Viking justice was a wee bit brutal.
Ok a list of other gods from Real World Mythos:
1. ALL of Mulhorandi (EVEN the stories!!!)
2. BHAAL was written in ancient myths around the Sumerian times. He wasa violent god but I have no idea if he was the Lord of Murder. OR even a god for that matter, I can't remember what book I read it in but he might of just been a king.
3. Ilmater apparently the god of suffering in the Finnish Stories and Myths.
4. Loviatar is the maiden of pain in the Finnish stories and Myths (as one scribe here already noted in another thread)
5. Mielikki The god of nature in the Finnish stories and Myths
6. Oghma the Celtic god of (vaguely) poetry and reading
7. Silvanus the GREEN man and essentially the head of the Celtic Panthoen
8. We cannot forget Tyche the ROMAN god of luck, that eventually split to form Tymora and Beshaba.
When studying the myths it is hard to assign a hierarchy to the gods of any pantheon except maybe the Greeks, as the other one has no serious lines drawn. THere seems to be a VERY loose Hierarchy with the Celtic gods. I think the lack of Hierarchy in the Faerun Pantheon is a good indication of some real world Pantheons.
I also do not know if some of the cultural "gods" can be considered gods. Minardil the sage of the Kavela can probably tell us ALOT more! PLEASE DO!!!
In the 1st edition publication Ed Greenwood states there is a large number of Finnish and Celtic deities indicating that there are portals to their realms in the Outerplanes.
You all know how much I LOVE SUNE, so here is something too Rile you up! The same publication says that SUNE is from the OLYMPIAN pantheon and may be...ATHENA The goddess of Wisdom?
I love that Ed Greenwood arranged the cosmology this way for it blends in PERFECT with my concept of all the worlds being part of a grand layered multiverse!
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