| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 13:23:59
If this is actually the correct slot for this thread, but since I want author participation in this discussion/musing I just gonna put it here... Mods, feel free to move the sucker 
How and why(especially the WHY!) does one worship an 'evil' god? I always thought it quite unrealistic that worshippers of Cyric, for example Malik, could be able to be married and love their wive, and trust other people.
I'm currently reading "Finder's Bane" and some Xvimists just slaughtered a bunch of lay followers of Bane. So far so good. But why were those lay followers dressed poorly and were generally just following a priestess? If I were to follow a deity like Bane I would want to rise quickly in whatever position. To pray to a god like Bane you'd have to be a pretty selfish bastard who doesn't respect anyone, unless this other one can beat you and has broken you before, but if I was broken by someone stronger, and I mean truly broken, why would I continue to follow the one god that, despite all my faith, has not helped me to gain what he ultimately promised. Obviously I cannot gain much, if anything by worshipping him. Why then would I continue to worship him? If I was such a broken man, wouldn't Ilmater be a much better suited deity for me?
How can a faith bent on hatred, tyranny and all the other nice things maintain worshippers that do not even maintain one ounce of self reliance, strength or however you wanna name it?
And please do not turn this into another "I want, I want, I want" thread! Let this be an objective discussion/musing.
To those who want to really talk about this: Thanks and well met 
Mod edit: Yeah, I think the General Chat section would be more appropriate. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Cardinal |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 00:02:50
Mace you wander in to an area where The Sage and I have mentioned once or twice in the distant past ^^ Deities are a bit of a Hobby of Mine, The Sage seems to specialize in... well practically Everything... the Know-it-all   |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 23:50:22
I just finished reading Finder's Bane...
Jeff Grubb/Kate Novak mention how the 'giving-power-through-faith'-thingy works when Finder explains it to Joel, which basically explained the concept of power through faith/followers to me (finally!):
Whenever a deity's name is spoken (acknowledged from my perspective) he gains power. The deity gains more power through prayer. If the prayer comes from a priest or somesuchthing the deity gains even more power, and if it is a chosen or favored priest there is even more of the same...
This makes things much clearer to me... even if a now-Banite curses Cyric, Cyric gains power from that, not much but a bit.
Now I just have to wonder if dead gods who are mentioned in conversation also gain some power while they are floating in the astral plane... this might be part of the reason Bane was able to come back...since Wizards won't indulge us regarding Bane's return I guess we'll have to wait...or guess... |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 22:39:03
quote:
Originally posted by Cyric-The-Insane
Those Banites who were sacrificed had probably failed Fzoul (or whoever the high priest was) or had wronged the church or had committed some kind of blasphemy against the religion that would allow them to be sacrificed without any repercussions or complaints from other priests/members of the church.
Or they backed the wrong person in a power-play. That would work for either a) the loser in a power struggle, or b) any supporter of a particular person in a power struggle. In the first case, you'd want to take out the loser's support to make sure he stays down, and in the last case, you'd take out your opponent's support to weaken him. |
| Cyric-The-Insane |
Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 22:11:49
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
How can a faith bent on hatred, tyranny and all the other nice things maintain worshippers that do not even maintain one ounce of self reliance, strength or however you wanna name it?
Lets use an example. A Church of Cyric.
It is safe to assume that anyone who has willingly joined this church is pursuing power or personnal greed. Joining a church puts you in touch with all the right people (Slavers, Smugglers and Assassins). Also many of the Cyricists in today’s world are known to be.. well insane.
Infact many Churches will fight each other. It is quite common for cyricists to kill other cyricists of another church or branch just so they can become more powerful themselves.
Those Banites who were sacrificed had probably failed Fzoul (or whoever the high priest was) or had wronged the church or had committed some kind of blasphemy against the religion that would allow them to be sacrificed without any repercussions or complaints from other priests/members of the church.
It all comes down to how you can better yourself. The mentality for people in a evil church (with the exception of Shar or something) is: “As long as it isn’t happening to me then everything is okay.”
In the case of people who are not self reliant and weak. The religion could have been forced onto them. Such as in Zhentil Keep after Cyric destroyed it. All the populace were forced into worshipping Bane/Xvim. (Or at the least.. Not worshipping Cyric)
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| The Cardinal |
Posted - 11 Jun 2006 : 18:02:03
Well we must also see that the Gods of the Realms are static Beings, not really able to do a whole lot of range of emotional motion. However as Wooly said, That members of the Zhentarim can be in Love. To My mind, it would not be an impossible thing that Members of evil churches can truly fall in Love, and that people of good churches can do atrocious acts.
I bring to Mind Ilmater, God of Suffering. The Martyr god, Now many would write him off as a fogiving and benevolent deity, however you lock a Loviatian and a Ilmaterite (Ok so I don't know what they'd be called  ) in a room together and only one will walk out alive, and that don't mean that it will be the Loviatian.
Generally the Gods Embody their extremes and Dogmas, and followers, both good and evil have their 'flaws' ;p. Besides it's the whole Wall of the Faithless and City of the False that can do wonders for a person's motivation for worship. Faithless? Better hope there a tanar'ri raid on the wall, False? Better meet up with Baatezu on the Fugue plane before being drawn into the City of the False. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 21:55:47
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
Wooly, I think you are right with the nice family man thingy... but Bob the Banite (damn fine name btw) wouldn't make it very far in the hierarchy or?
Not as a cleric, no... But Bob the Banite is a regular worshipper.
However... We have seen members of the Zhentarim in love, so simply following Bane doesn't preclude getting the warm fuzzies over someone.  |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 20:23:57
Wooly, I think you are right with the nice family man thingy... but Bob the Banite (damn fine name btw) wouldn't make it very far in the hierarchy or? |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 20:16:24
Keijemon, I really don't want this to become an argument and I both understand and respect your reaction. I think you may have misunderstood me; my point was that they may not define the god as "evil" themselves. In the Realms the god are divided into clear alignments and the situation becomes different. I in no way defend the act of hurting anybody for any religious reasons.
As the subject in my opinion is still interesting, I will be more careful so it doesnt get locked. |
| keijemon |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 20:07:32
Ok... so 2 people just argued that burning new born first borns, alive, is not necessarily an evil act. I am out of this thread. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 19:55:58
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I think the alignment system isn't really that good
While I'll acknowledge that the alignment system is a bit simplistic, I think the problems with it stem more from people's misconceptions of it than any inherent flaws. Saying that alignment X generally acts in such and such a manner is pretty straightforward, and there's nothing really flawed in it. People thinking that all evil folk are psychopathic murderers, for example, is a flaw in their perceptions, not in the system. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 19:51:49
I don't recall any specific references supporting it, but I am of the opinion that deities of the Realms get power not only from direct worship, but also from veneration, and from the administration of their portfolios.
So Talos, for example, would get the most power from his worshippers. But he'd also get power from causing storms, and he'd get power from people praying to avoid those storms.
While the FRCS says that everyone has to have one patron deity they worship above all others, nowhere is it written that they can't -- or don't -- venerate other deities. Ed and THo have stated that, as well, repeatedly.
Another note: just because someone worships a deity, it doesn't necessarily mean they are going to let it dominate all aspects of their life. And even if it does, it doesn't mean they can't live relatively normal lives. There's nothing that says a priest of Bane can't have a happy home life. He may insist on being "the man of the house", and demanding that his family members submit to him, but that doesn't preclude love or an otherwise normal life. If his family acknowledges his superiority over them, then there's no cause for conflict.
Heck, someone who worships Bane might not even be evil. If Bob the Banite is an arrogant sort who feels he's vastly superior to everyone around him, then to him it would make sense that others acknowledge his superiority and accede to his wishes, without comment, question, or protest. Bob the Banite might actually be a decent guy, he just thinks he's better than everyone else and should thus be top dog. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 19:47:54
I can not argue against the rules presented for the realms, especially when it comes to the rules as they stand now. I am therefore not sure how they present the relationship between gods and worshipers.
When it comes to the banites I think I would use a little broader definition of tyranny than you use here. For example, the average Victorian marriage was in my opinion a marriage of tyranny; did this exclude love? No, it just wasn't necessary, as long as the tyrant was obeyed things could work. Now, even if he was a priest of Bane or a sadist it is far from unknown that people that commit the worst crimes against fellow humans can be loving wives and husbands.
My point is; even in the realms there are degrees of fanaticism and interpretations of dogmas. For example, how would the banite clergy of Zenthil keep benefit by the town being without norms and population increases. The strongest weapon of the tyrant is always the laws as they judge them.
I think we agree on many points though and I see the problems with worshiping the evil gods with the guidelines set forth. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 19:39:51
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
While references to real-world religions are applicable, let's nix the commentary on those religions -- religion is something some folk take quite seriously, and discussions of such can get ugly.
Okies |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 19:37:32
While references to real-world religions are applicable, let's nix the commentary on those religions -- religion is something some folk take quite seriously, and discussions of such can get ugly. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 19:34:05
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by Keijemon
Sure it does. You are making a common flaw of a modern person, look at our own history and past civilizations. Carthaginians warshiped Baal, and in time of distress would sacrifice first borns (throwing them through the mouth of the idol to the raging fire in its belly). How is that for worship of evil god by commoners?
Another thing to remember is that Baal, the god of fertility, was seen as a beneficial deity. In all the religions of the ancient world the gods were looked upon with a mix of love and fear, and the idea of sacrifice was Central. In a time of crisis one needed the greatest boon from the gods, so one needed the greatest sacrifices.
One difference between most real world religions and the faith of the realms is that the alignment of the gods are so clear and defined. I think that makes us draw lines that are really a little misleading when it comes to seeing the reason for worship. Does a common fisherman in Marsember think about alignment when he fears both Umberlee and Tempus? Both gods are a threat and the most likely to give him a hope of a better life is the evil sea-goddess.
fun... I was about to reply to your post
I think the alignment system isn't really that good, destruction can be a natural thing. The way James Lowder approached the topic in "Prince of Lies" was much more believable than the good/evil division. If the deities represent mere concepts even a good person could worship Umberlee for example since she protects his ships... or whatnot
As for Baal...well Christianity turned many old deities into demons... 'tis called propaganda, I'm with you in that one, Jorkens |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 19:29:23
quote:
Originally posted by keijemon
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I don't disagree with either of you, NiTessine and Richard, but it still causes me to wonder why a commoner who is not a cleric/priest would still worship someone like Bane, if what Bane has promised him, through the tenets of his church, does not happen.
Sure it does. You are making a common flaw of a modern person, look at our own history and past civilizations. Carthaginians warshiped Baal, and in time of distress would sacrifice first borns (throwing them through the mouth of the idol to the raging fire in its belly). How is that for worship of evil god by commoners?
If Baal can be considered evil is up to historians, human sacrifice was not uncommon in any religion...
But I see your point. However, we are talking about a world where the deities are very much real and can (and MUST) react to their worshippers prayers. Would a devout Banite who did everything right not loose faith if at least some things didn't go his way?
He knows there are viable alternatives.
How can a devout worshipper of Bane maintain a 'loving' marriage? Not at all... so basically for the Banite system to really work out it has to be one vicious cycle from which no one breaks out. Children in general would have to be born into an abusive family (after all Bane is the god of tyranny) or they are born to a mother who conceived the child during one of the many rapes she probably had to endure.
If the hate/tyranny was only focused at the outside world I could accept this, but as we have enough infighting amongst the Banites this does not hold true. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 19:19:50
quote:
Originally posted by Keijemon
Sure it does. You are making a common flaw of a modern person, look at our own history and past civilizations. Carthaginians warshiped Baal, and in time of distress would sacrifice first borns (throwing them through the mouth of the idol to the raging fire in its belly). How is that for worship of evil god by commoners?
Another thing to remember is that Baal, the god of fertility, was seen as a beneficial deity. In all the religions of the ancient world the gods were looked upon with a mix of love and fear, and the idea of sacrifice was Central. In a time of crisis one needed the greatest boon from the gods, so one needed the greatest sacrifices.
One difference between most real world religions and the faith of the realms is that the alignment of the gods are so clear and defined. I think that makes us draw lines that are really a little misleading when it comes to seeing the reason for worship. Does a common fisherman in Marsember think about alignment when he fears both Umberlee and Tempus? Both gods are a threat and the most likely to give him a hope of a better life is the evil sea-goddess.
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| keijemon |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 19:02:59
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand
I don't disagree with either of you, NiTessine and Richard, but it still causes me to wonder why a commoner who is not a cleric/priest would still worship someone like Bane, if what Bane has promised him, through the tenets of his church, does not happen.
Sure it does. You are making a common flaw of a modern person, look at our own history and past civilizations. Carthaginians warshiped Baal, and in time of distress would sacrifice first borns (throwing them through the mouth of the idol to the raging fire in its belly). How is that for worship of evil god by commoners? |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 17:34:42
I hope I'm not boring you yet, just enjoying the conversation.
Now Chaunthea is not an evil deity and her feelings are stronger for the plants and the growths than for the peasant. As I said Bane is to me the problem in the polytheistic system, but as I see it, the whole point is that the gods first interest is in their portfolio, how else could a worshiper of one of Tempus' enemies ever survive a combat? In this case I can not see Chaunthea blessing the land of a Bane worshipper with over bountiful harvests, but as a neutral goddess of growth she wouldn't punish the earth and plants for being grown by a banite either.
As for the Talos example, he is a worshipper not a priest. The architect is rewarded by having his own buildings saved from catastrophes while his rivals' plummet to ruin. Of course, as Talos is evil and unpredictable, this will probably sooner or later backfire. That doesn't keep the architect from being tempted, both by the safety for his own buildings and for the destruction of rivals.
The Loviatar example. No, if both are not followers of Loviatar there is little chance for anything but an abusive relationship. At the same time, remember that it has been stated several times that Loviatars followers are found among slaver, torturers and the decadent in city's. There are probably also a following among warriors. The Nation of Dambrath becomes a special case of course |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 17:16:17
If worship wasn't exclusive it could work, but how could a Bane worshipping farmer work the fields and hope for a good harvest if he actively denies Chauntea, branding her a false god? The Bane-worshipping farming community would not last long.
A Talos worshipping architect is another ludicrous idea... well he would get lots of jobs, initially, until they know that his designs are very prone to destruction...just because.
How could anyone in their right mind, with a sound occupation worship any of these gods directly? How could a Loviatar worshipping husband live with and love his wife? Unless she is a worshipper of Ilmater...
To see a Banite as a (loving) father is also very much obscure to me. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 17:07:07
This is my personal opinion and may go partly against canon.
I have always had a problem with that point from Avatar, I can't see the pantheon existing as it does with that ruling. If you base the power of the gods on the worshipers and not on the worship you change the belief of the Realms from polytheistic to a system of many monotheistic faiths. This again goes against comments made by Ed and others that people in the Realms worship the gods as the situations demand.
The gods represent powers and elements of reality, I have always imagined their power more directly linked to this than their worshipers. As mace pointed out, how many would worship Talos directly as their main god and how can one justify him keeping his position as a major power if the number of worshipers is the deciding factor.
That one ruling is in my opinion the most damaging effect of the changes made by the Time of Troubles. The earlier logic has been moved aside and they have not followed up on the changes the world would suffer because of it. This is most obvious when one looks at the evil gods. They logicaly dont have as many worshipers as the good gods and should therefore be severely weakened. But what would that do to the realms?
In my vision of the realms I have tended to oversee Ao's judgement, it makes life a lot easier. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 16:49:26
Problem with this would be that gods gain power through worship, not from people who pay lip service. If the entire worship thing is more based on primeal feelings it would be a far easier thing to explain, but if I recall Avatar correctly Ao states that deities have to work for their worshippers and thus their own power.
Maybe this is just a bit more likely... believe in the god and he gains power...veneration is kinda difficult... |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 16:41:11
quote:
Originally posted by Mace Hammerhand.
. I can't recall if there is a god of vengeance, but such a peon would turn to this sort of deity
The nearest thing one gets to a god of Vengeance is Hoar.
Now, the farmer would not worship Talos and Auril because they ruin his fields, he would pray to them so that they will leave him be. But think about it, you are the farmer Gethrain from the southern Silver Marches, three times your neighbors fields are destroyed by the cold, but yours survive (the reasons could vary), is it then not possible that you think yourself blessed by Auril and start worshiping her more intensely?
I would think that most of the evil gods principal worship comes out of fear of what might happen, and those few really fanatical worshipers these gods have comes from those few who actually benefits from the gods powers. |
| Jorkens |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 16:10:44
I agree, fear is the most important reason for the casual worshiper or "homager", but if we look at the Moonsea cities were the banites have their greatest strength in the northern lands. The church of Bane sits in a dominant position in Zenthil Keep and was one of the strongest powers in Mulmaster in the time of the high Imperceptor; most peoples daily woes would at least partly be caused by the banites so why pay homage to them? Would it not be more logical to pray for salvation from other gods, not from the gods of the government? bane himself is the only god I can think of that plays little direct role in most persons life. Yes there is hate, envy etc, but these are often uncontrolable emotions. Maybe Banes power grow more out of the emotions of mortals than their prayers?
In my mind there has always been an element of monotheism in banism; maybe the banites teach that the other gods are false and that there is no real gods but Bane? I cant remember this being said specifficaly in realms lore, but it is certainly logical for a god of tyranny to present himself as the One true God.
Sorry but I get carried away.
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| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 16:03:13
quote:
Originally posted by Uzzy
Fear, perhaps? Loyaltly to a god might ensure some reward in future. Both Tangible, Physical rewards and 'rewards' in the Afterlife. Or, at the very least, ensure that your somewhat immune to his divine wrath.
Until you get sacrificed for some fault or other...
Paying homage to Auril, Malar, Talos, or Mask makes sense, but why should the common farmer worship Talos? To worship the god that trashes your harvest... the same goes for Auril.
A merchant who prefers to cheat his customers by manipulating his scales would most definitely worship Mask. A hunter could worship Malar. But which sailor would worship Umberlee, the deity whose main hobby is sinking ships?
I agree with Jorkens that a mistreated peon who suffers any sort of abuse isn't likely to pray to Bane and worship him. I can't recall if there is a god of vengeance, but such a peon would turn to this sort of deity... |
| Uzzy |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 15:46:49
Fear, perhaps? Loyaltly to a god might ensure some reward in future. Both Tangible, Physical rewards and 'rewards' in the Afterlife. Or, at the very least, ensure that your somewhat immune to his divine wrath.
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| Jorkens |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 15:45:57
Well, just a few thoughts.
I have no problem seeing why people pay homage to most of the gods; most people would in their lives get in to contact with at least elements of almost every powers spheres of influence. Even the most pacifistic peasant would see the need for placating Malar for fear of the beasts and Talos for fear of the storms.
If you take a look at the evil powers you see that most of them will easily serve a purpose for a person regardless of alignment. A person seeking to forget a tragedy would maybe turn to Shar, the same would a person afraid of the dark. The good shopkeeper of Beregost would say a quick prayer to Mask to keep the thieves from their doors. In the same way most "evil" people would also at times turn to the good powers.
When it comes to the priests and the more fanatical followers I would say it were very individual reasons for turning to the god of their choice.
One exception in my eyes is Bane; as has already been pointed out, there is little reason for the large majority of people to worship this deity. I can understand lip-service if the leaders of a regime command it, but in most cases only leaders can in my eyes see any real reason to worship Bane.
I have always felt I was missing something when it comes to Bane, that I don't fully understand the gods role in the realms.
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| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 15:23:24
I agree, Richard, it would be the Banites' version of paradise...or Lolth(ites?) version... but in Realms literature it seems to me that from the point of view of any sort of believer sees the 'objective' (mean source-related) view of 'paradise'. Take Pharaun for example, he knows what the demonweb pits are like, he knows it ain't a nice place to hang his hat, he also realizes the pitiful attitude of the matrons/priestesses not to listen to males overly much.
If a decently intelligent being sees such 'faults' would he choose to ignore them or move away from them?
Maybe I just cannot understand blind faith... it still irks me...
If the only reason for a faithful to remain such is whatever the clergy says and 'tradition', the basic consequence, philosophically speaking, would be that people could not change and behave like lemmings... something I refuse to believe, so there must be another reason, especially in a (fictional) world where the gods are real. |
| Richard Lee Byers |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 15:05:36
Mace: In the real world, people have faith in one religion or another, see their prayers go unanswered, reap no tangible rewards for their devotion, and continue to believe. It happens all the time, and if human nature allows it to happen in a world where it's possible to argue that the divine is not real, surely it would also happen in a world where the divine is incontrovertibly real.
With regard to the afterlife question, my guess is that if you're a wretched stooge worshipping Bane, the priests and bosses don't tell you there's no reward waiting for you in the afterlife. They tell you you're going to the faith's version of paradise. |
| Mace Hammerhand |
Posted - 09 Jun 2006 : 14:43:50
I don't disagree with either of you, NiTessine and Richard, but it still causes me to wonder why a commoner who is not a cleric/priest would still worship someone like Bane, if what Bane has promised him, through the tenets of his church, does not happen.
Maybe, since I was not raised in the circle of "faithful" of any couleur, I cannot see the logic behind blind faith. But I'd assume that if you prayed to any god to save the life of your dying child and you do not get any response and the child still dies you will start doubting the faith, and the god.
A reason for a non-priest-person to follow a faith (yes, maybe I am too rational) would be to see his hopes/dreams fulfilled. Now if that hope was shattered he'd start to resent this faith, which might lead him to Bane... but wouldn't it b the same if a Banite is disappointed by the lack of response to his prayers?
Admittedly, we are talking about a fictional world, but in this fictional world gods are quite real, and they must 'fight' for their followers. By Ao's decree the gods have to do something for their followers if they want to gain/maintain their power.
So if an utterly devout non-priest Banite never gets anything in return, and a Banite would have to be pretty self centered as per the propagana of their faith, how would he react?
In real world religions you have the promise of a glorious afterlife and that sort of thing, you get rewarded with if you follow whatever tenets, what is the outlook for, say, a male follower of Lolth? More degrading and abuse doesn't seem that appealing to me... |
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