| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| darkflame millithor |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 05:39:57
Hey guys, I need to know lolth's divine rank(I know she's a intermedeate power) I'm talking about the 1-20ranking. |
| 21 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 24 May 2006 : 05:28:38
Just as a slightly related side point, I was just reading through Races of Renown: Plot and Poison, a Green Ronin sourcebook about drow (which obviously isn't an official source for the Realms), and in there they actually have eight demi-gods that act as sort of patrons of the various aspects of the "Spider-Queen." When I was reading this it reminded me of the Yor'thae and the different aspects of Lolth. Maybe Danifae is a demi-goddess that is essentially just an aspect of Lolth, and there are seven others, and that perhaps one demi-god aspect is ascendant during the time between Silences.
I have no idea whatsoever about how this works, but I read that part about the eight demi-god aspects and thought it at least peripherally tied in. Of course, we might learn a bit more about this when Lisa Smedmen writes her Lady Penitant trilogy. Just some food for thought, and its a fun sourcebook to look through even if it is unofficial. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 19:33:59
darkflame, what you describe does not sound like an act of love, but something else. I will not discuss your personal decsion openly more then that, but if you wish might exchange PMs with you if you want to discuss this more.
However the point that Corellon could have still had somekind of emotional attachment to Lolth could be a valid one. I think it would not be love though, more of anger not only at her, but at himself forletting himself be betrayed. He might have wanted to forget about her and thus not want to look upon her and her doings. An Emotional response that allowed Lolth to grow in power with few trying to opose her, would make her rise easier then the efforts to redeem her and try to change her destiny. |
| Kentinal |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 17:47:29
It is clear that Divine rank is not based on just numbers that take a deity as their patron. Creatures in FR believe in many deities and depending on events pray or at least praise a deity other then their patron. Spell caster will tend to be thankful for a spell that goes well and that could be a factor in Divine rank. A farmer might take an agicultural deity as patron, by will pray for other things, safe travel of crops to market, fertility not just for crops but perhaps family, weather deities for rain or rain to stop and so forth.
AO maintains a very high rank despite having few (if any) mortal that take him as patron. Also he does not grant spells to mortals. A Cleric of AO might be posible within the rules, however if so the Cleric clearly would not be able to cast any spells and odds are could not turn/rebute undead (some of the important features of being a Cleric).
I suspect design team did not develpe any real mathmatical system for determining Divine rank, however if they did it would almost certainly include number of followers, the devotion to deity (one can hate their deity and IMO be devoted to it because of the power the deity grants), devotion to other deities for special events/situations, the power (portfolios) a deity has (the more general it is the more likely non followers will be thankful for its existance), the more portfolios can justify higher Divine Rank.
There also might be a factor of shared portfolios having a lessor factor then a portfolio held by only one. The number of Divine casters should matter some as well, but even more so when the spells are cast to meet the goals of their patron deity.
In Lolth case it could be argued that despite lossing many followers and a whole city, that by her return her presense increased the amount of devotion she recieves from those that survived, perhaps a fear factor. It also can be argued she in effect gained ex. pts. by acomplishing her task. I still do not believe she should have gained rank, there again I believe her ex-husband should have acted a long time ago to prevent her from gaining as many Divine ranks source book gave her.
However the ways of deities are not for mere mortals to understand. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 16:11:53
I'm not saying that hating a god without giving them any praise is worth nearly as much as even paying them lip service would be, but that, to a degree, it would give them something since it acknowledges their divinity at all. In other words, as long as anyone dreads the vile god (insert name here), they may not completely disappear, while if no one even remembers them except for text in an ancient book, they are likely too far gone to do much good.
So I guess, without being able to quantify how much power they get, the hiearchy I set forth for getting power from worship would be something like this.
For the sake of this arguement, lets say you can measure how much faith sustanance is generated by each act. Keep in mind, this is just for the sake of arguement, as I wouldn't want to see something like this quantified, and there are many degrees even within the examples that I usede here.
1) Knowing the god exists but having no particular respect or emotion for them (worth very little), equal to about a half a faith point.
2) Acknowledging the god exists, and has power over a given domain, but do not hold them as a patron, will not say supplications to them, and hate them passionately. Equal to a point of faith or so.
3) Saying supplications to the given god because you respect their portfolio and hope for their intercession, but do not hold them as patron. Equal to about two faith points.
4) Holding a god as a patron, following their ways, and upholding their path, but not always constantly thinking or feeling much emotion about this particular patronage. Equal to about four faith points.
5) Holding a god as patron, wanting to acheive the goals of the faith, and feeling like the patron god is the only choice for you, but still passionately hating that god for the path they have set you on, etc. Equal to about six faith points.
6) Holding a god as a patron, wanting to acheive the goals of the faith, feeling like the god is part of your essense and soul, and passionately clinging to that god and trusting their dictates. Equal to about eight faith points.
Keep in mind, the points are just to show the relative worth of the various forms of worship, not any kind of real mechanic. |
| darkflame millithor |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 07:23:57
knight, I too share most of your ideas concerning Lolth,ao's decree.the only thing that troubles me is your idea that hating a god may still empower it. That is a paradox! It brings to mind the novel
'Trail of a Mad God"
SPOILER ALERT!!! Cyric tried to claim Adon as his faithful because he drove him mad ! are you saying that he gained power from the hatred of all Mystra's followers? I think that if gods could draw power that way,there wouldn't be as many dead from lack of worshippers(unless your porfolio is hatred I don't think you could benefit).
But I will throw this bone your way-I do think that may be the reason dead gods like bane,orcus etc have the power to return to life! In a way it means Kiaransalee's fear of Orcus helped to sustain him and act as a catalist for his repeated resurrections.Creepy! |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 18 May 2006 : 05:47:02
I have been cogitating about this particular issue, and have had some thoughts I wanted to share. Poke holes in them as you will 
When it comes to "worship" and the gods getting their power and ranking from such, one of the things that comes to mind was the one Fafhrd and Mouser story where Kos, Mog, and Issek are in the "slums of Heaven" just hoping that Fafhrd and Mouser would at least take one of their names in vain, as they are so hard up for worshippers that even that slight acknowledgment of their divine status would be a releif.
Placation and Lip Service
I think both of these serve to add to a god's power, though much less so than actual devoted worship. If you think about it, Talos doesn't likely have that many devoted Stormlords as such. But nearly every farmer that has been caught out in a thunderstorm has asked Talos to spare him, even if they worship Chauntea.
Thus, having a portfolio that would have a lot of people calling on you for placation, even if they don't worship you as their patron, can have a definate affect on your divine rank, at least according to my theory.
Lolth's Exclusivity
We saw in the Dark Elf trilogy that Lolth isn't quite as open as other gods. While even a worshipper of Bane might say a prayer to Auril in the winter, Lolth's worshippers, at least in Menzoberranzan, were expected to look to Lolth for any and all spiritual needs. Its possible that this fanatic exclusivity might generate a bit more power than a person that deeply loves their patron, but is still open to pray to another god once in a while, under certain circumstances.
Passion in Worship
Even a person that truly beleives in a god and their goals and portfolio might start to have a fairly matter of fact way of worshipping their god. Those who are truly passionate are likely to generate more power for their god.
Now, keep in mind, passion cuts both ways. When Lolth abandoned her followers, many were filled with joy that she returned to them after leaving them for so long. Others may have hated her with a passion, but they still beleive that she is the only god worthy of worship. Quenthel at the end of Ressurection might be a good example of this.
In other words, passionate followers are worth more than non-passionate, but loyal and faithful, servants are. While love and adoration powerful, hatred but unrelenting attraction might be almost as powerful. Lolth's silence may have jarred at lot of "middle of the road" worshippers into one category or the other, thus generating more power for her.
A Side Note on Passion in Worship
If this theory is on base at all, an interesting side effect would be that god's whose servants fervently hate opposing gods may actually generate some power for that god. In other words, if you worship Helm and never think of Grummsh, and defend a city against orcs, it doesn't matter one way or the other. But if you hate Bane with a burning passion, some of that intense focus may actually feed Bane. Not nearly as much as your devotion to Helm feeds Helm, but it might be an interesting thing to think about.
Problems with Lolth's Stipped Divinity
While the ritual Lolth entered into does indeed cause the above listed items to occur, it seems like she could have engineered it without making her vulnerable at the same time. It could be that this strange ritual might be needed to have her hold onto her divinity, as Corellon's cure may still affect her after all this time, and she may have to jump through hoops just to not fall back into being a demon after all.
The Yor'thae thing may be something that lets Lolth have the new part of her personality take the brunt of the assault on her divine power while she goes about her business, or she may have to have some kind of mortal connection in order to keep acting as a goddess, somewhat like a corrupted verion of the Spectre in DC Comics needing a human "anchor" to allow him to manifest and understand humanity.
Just a thought.
Portfolios and Placation
It may be that the more portfolios your worshipper ascribe to you, and the more important those portfolios are, the more power you generate, which would help explain why Lolth was so keen on killing of Zinzareena and picking up Assasins as part of her portfolio, especially since that might help with male worshippers.
Ao's Decree, and How it Might Work
We know that Ao decreed that gods would be more tied to their worshippers after the Time of Troubles, but we also know that there are references to gods fading away from lack of worshippers from before the decree.
I was wondering a few things about this. Might it not be that moving up or down in divine ranks occurs much more quickly now than in the past?
The other thing I was wondering about this is if certain portfolios carried a minimum rank with them. In other words, the god of hairdressing (just and example) is always at least a divine rank 3 position. What this might set up is that a god that is more powerful than his worshippers could support is still the minimum rank for his position under the old system, but not able to act.
Kind of like a killer computer rig, tricked out to the nines with a powerful processor, lots of memory, etc, but with a power supply that isn't sufficient to run its power.
After the proclamation, no one is automatically allowed a certain rank, divine worship ALWAYS determines rank, not importance of porfolio, and thus why portfolio stealing has become more common (or at least is seems so).
So technically, you could still die from lack of worshippers under the old system, but it took longer, and Ao would more or less have to decide to split up your portfolios once you were too powerful to manifest any power anymore.
Again, just some random thoughts.
Unexpected Results
While the added passion of her worshippers, and the potential addition of more paying lip service to her for fear of her wrath once she returns, might have bolstered Lolth, I would bet that Vhearun managed to gain some degree of passion from his worshippers as well during this ordeal. Oddly enough, the one that benefits the least is likely Eilistraee, as her followers likely know the least about what happened, are affected the least by the Silence.
At any rate, thats my two steelpence.
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| khorne |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 20:32:31
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
FR cosmology and its mechanics is not really a case about being backed up by lore. Rules were laid out in the Faiths & Avatar books, mainly the first one. That was AD&D and much of it is merely flair talk. As in: "only a divine power can slay another divine power" etc.. So there were not exactly "game rules" obeyed when Midnight et al became gods. The "outline" of how the FR pantheon and apotheosis et al worked were obeyed.
The game rules were not disobeyed. Mortals can slay gods if they have divine assistance. Midnight was approaching divinity, and Cyric was using Godsbane, which turned out to be Mask. The rules were not broken.
When I first read the part where Cyric slew Bhaal( one of my favorite deities ) I didn`t understand how that sword could have killed the Lord of Murder. But later when I discovered that it was Mask in disguise that Cyric rammed into Bhaals guts I came to accept the fact that Bhaal was gone. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 15:28:30
As I said ... the rules as such were no "rules" one would find in a PHB or DMG, but "just sentences" like the one I wrote above. As in: they "described" how it all worked, this became canon, but no "in game rules" were actually written describing what is needed to kill a god or become one, e.g. able to cast 9th level spells, have spellcraft 40 ranks, INT 35, or 500 people who view you as a nigh immortal being et al. Then again, I have to admit that I did not study that part of the books by heart. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 09:46:07
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
FR cosmology and its mechanics is not really a case about being backed up by lore. Rules were laid out in the Faiths & Avatar books, mainly the first one. That was AD&D and much of it is merely flair talk. As in: "only a divine power can slay another divine power" etc.. So there were not exactly "game rules" obeyed when Midnight et al became gods. The "outline" of how the FR pantheon and apotheosis et al worked were obeyed.
The game rules were not disobeyed. Mortals can slay gods if they have divine assistance. Midnight was approaching divinity, and Cyric was using Godsbane, which turned out to be Mask. The rules were not broken. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 09:09:35
FR cosmology and its mechanics is not really a case about being backed up by lore. Rules were laid out in the Faiths & Avatar books, mainly the first one. That was AD&D and much of it is merely flair talk. As in: "only a divine power can slay another divine power" etc.. So there were not exactly "game rules" obeyed when Midnight et al became gods. The "outline" of how the FR pantheon and apotheosis et al worked were obeyed.
F&P introduced a number of "hard facts" with regard to divine ranking, but these figures and all were used on deities who already had a set standing in the cosmology, whether they actually met the F&P requirements or not. Especially the "number of worshippers" stuff can hardly convince.
Anyway, given that Lolth used some very special and obviously powerful ritual to wrench her Demonwebs out of the Abyss, a ritual that has no equal, could mean thather status grew. Whether she inteded this or not is another matter. (After all, the Wizards intended this, not Lolth. And they will decide what happened to the Dark Mother, whatever we discuss here about rules and canon and whatever strikes our mind.) The lack of shedding info on this topic is something the Wizards will hopefully adress in some web-enhancement or the like. |
| scererar |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 04:32:19
So what would other scribes here say to what "rule" to use game-wise when you have an official sourcebook dictating one thing, then a novel alluding to another? just make it up and modify when the official reference appears??
I understand that the author may have inside knowledge of what may be in the future, or has recently happened in the novels. However there does not seem to be game mechanics or lore (other than what the novels allude) to back it up. My opinion would be to rely on the past "official" realms material (divine rank of 15, as stated in my earlier post). I do understand the pre and post WoSQ materials do conflict here, but it is interesting to me how these little differences create debates. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 17 May 2006 : 01:17:06
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
On a sidenote ... while we all agree that she did advance during the WotSQ, nothing offically has been printed on that subject.
Hardly all of us agree she increased in Divine Rank, just the belief on one of the authors understands that she increased based on discussions with people associated with WotC.
Based on his inside knowledge, the odds are very good she will gain a divine rank, even though there appears to be limited justification for it.
Well, we can assume that Paul had some basic insider knowledge as to WotC's plans for Lolth in-game. So, at the very least, there's likely been a definite increase in her status given the events of WotSQ. It's just that we've yet to properly learn something officially from WotC that reflects the changes made in the series.
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| Kentinal |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 22:35:52
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
On a sidenote ... while we all agree that she did advance during the WotSQ, nothing offically has been printed on that subject.
Hardly all of us agree she increased in Divine Rank, just the belief on one of the authors understands that she increased based on discussions with people associated with WotC.
Based on his inside knowledge, the odds are very good she will gain a divine rank, even though there appears to be limited justification for it. |
| Zanan |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 22:18:32
On a sidenote ... while we all agree that she did advance during the WotSQ, nothing offically has been printed on that subject. |
| darkflame millithor |
Posted - 16 May 2006 : 15:36:34
thanks everyone for the information! |
| scererar |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 14:25:33
yep, my fingers were quicker than my eyes on this one my friends  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 08:05:17
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
page 41 of faiths and pantheons, shows Loth's divine rank at 15. The printing was may 2002, so things could have changed since then 
Of course they did, since she advanced. :)
Indeed. The F&P entry notes her position pre-WotSQ.
Scererar, note the tidbit I quoted from Paul above which deals with Lolth's status post-WotSQ (which Arivia also noted).
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| Kuje |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 07:30:15
quote:
Originally posted by scererar
page 41 of faiths and pantheons, shows Loth's divine rank at 15. The printing was may 2002, so things could have changed since then
Of course they did, since she advanced. :) |
| scererar |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 07:27:25
page 41 of faiths and pantheons, shows Loth's divine rank at 15. The printing was may 2002, so things could have changed since then |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 07:09:13
A little from Paul (note this includes SPOILERS from Resurrection) -
NOTE: You'll need to highlight the section to read it.
"I can only speculate but the fact that Lolth is greater now than before does suggest there is something more to divine rank than simply the number of worshippers. This makes some sense. If Lolth was powered purely by number of worshippers, it would make little sense for her to encourage the kind of internecine house warfare that she does. After all, every obliterated house represents worshippers lost. Perhaps there are a multitude of factors that contribute to a deity's power, including, possibly, the molding and ultimate melding with an exemplar of the faith (in this case, the Yor'thae), or the risking of the divine existence on a ploy that embodies the very ethos of the god (as happened with Lolth here)." |
| Arivia |
Posted - 15 May 2006 : 05:42:58
Post-WoSQ, she's a greater power. We don't know the specific rank yet, and I doubt we ever will. |
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