| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Paj |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 10:28:59
Lo all,
During the course of my investigations into the location of the Yugoloth Towers I have noticed a large amount of material that has either been changed between 2nd and 3rd edition, or, as of the retcon planar cosmology chnages and the official reason of, "Its always been that way", is lacking in relevant 3e Lore.
As such, I have decided to create this list of items that I myself have found out.
I hope that at least some of my points can be answered but feel free to add your own items to the list as well.
It is my hope we can at least amongs ourselves come up with some 'lore' of our own making, unnoficial as it may be, it would at least give us something.
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| 6 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Faraer |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 16:04:35
I think you're being too literal about transfinite regions that are supposed to be boundless and unfathomed by man. The two Abysses can perfectly well be both separate and the same -- there should be differences between how they appear in different humanly described 'cosmologies'. One way or another, if you want your Abyss to house the souls of many worlds, (a) it should and (b) nothing in Realmslore that I'm aware of says it doesn't.
I can't think of any other name-changed things like that, but then I haven't had lunch. There's Luruar > Silver Marches, gates > portals, the ridiculous regular plurals like 'malaugryms', calling Zhentilar 'Zhentarim' (amended by Power of Faerūn). The first two can reasonably be cases of multiple terms, the latter two are cases of the 3E lens on the Realms being a simplifying one rather than changes to the lore. |
| Paj |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 09:34:20
Well, my player and I had a bit of a Mind-mapping session after our game yesterday and we came up with some theories about some of my own questions:
1) Maybe this is a typo and was unintentional. - True it seems a bit strange that it is prevalent whenever Sythillis/Sothillis is mentioned but ity could be a typo nontheless.
6) Perhaps Baator and the Abyss are like Sigil. i.e. there are only one version of each and they are constant throughout any and all planar cosmologies. With this setup the blood war now becomes feasable as their are again an infinite number of souls. The problem with this is that there are known differences between the Nine Hells and Abyss in different cosmologies, such as Gods with Realms in the Abyss in Greyhawk etc.
Another possible answer is that the blood war is drawing its souls from other planets in the Realms Universe, like our own universe, the Realms one is probably infinite, and thus has an infinite number of inhabitable worlds from which the devils/demons can draw souls.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 04 Apr 2006 : 01:40:04
quote:
Originally posted by Paj
Ok, to start the list:
1) Renaming of certain NPC's. A prime example can be found in Power of Faerun, where Sythillis is renamed to Sothillis, as is his Empire.
Ed or Eric would be the better person to answer this.
quote:
2) Location of such things as the Khin-Oin/Tower of Incarnate Pain in FR as it no longer has a Grey Wastes or Gehenna
The listings of the planes in 3e aren't complete... as Faraer said above. There's still plenty to be covered concerning the individual outer planes that comprise the new Great Tree cosmology. As such... such detailed regions in 2e as Khin-Oin and other locales of 'loth importance have yet to be properly placed or referenced, if they are to be, in 3e FR.
quote:
3) The location of most of the Gods unnamed in F&P or PGtF and their current Realm. Example: Diinkarazn in 2e is located in the Prison of the Mad God in the Abyss, yet PGtF specifically states that, "No Deities make their homes there" under the Abyss information.
I'm not entirely sure why this is so... though I'd expect WotC will address this at some point... if at all.
quote:
4) Referencing Core D&D planes on the Great Wheel, if the aim of the Planar Retcon was to make each Campaign Setting different and independant of the next, why reference Greyhawk Planes?
Everything Kuje just said in regard to this question is correct.
And the fact that Sigil is still a known element inside both the 3e Great Tree cosmology and the Great Wheel in core D&D -- in effect being the same Sigil -- means that both sets of planes can be accessed by travellers from either cosmology.
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5) Events such as the Great Modron March instigated by Orcus and his subsequent 'resurrection?' into Tenebrous, his killing of Primus, Maanzecorian and other Deities. Are they considered to have happened in FR? Or was Orcus' return done differently?
I'm going to say so... but the fact that prominent planar/divine beings in 3e FR aren't their 3e core D&D counterparts means that events happening to one deity in one cosmological structure ie the core D&D Great Wheel... has no bearing on Realms entities with the same name. The similarities end there -- removing the shared body aspect of 2e.
This is because each campaign setting now has its own Prime Material Plane. As such, the multiverse could potentially contain hundreds, thousands, or even millions of individual Prime Material Planes, each of which would have their own individual planar networks connected to them ONLY. To simplify this a little, this means that there could now be more than one standard version of a deity or plane (for example, there are now hundreds of Seldarine courts each of which are related only to a particular campaign setting), whereas in 2e, the Seldarine on the Great Wheel was the Seldarine that the FORGOTTEN REALMS and GREYHAWK settings could relate to.
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6) The feasability of the Blood War now that Baator and the Abyss only have Faerun from which to draw souls, as opposed to infinite worlds.
I'm still trying to understand the "why retcon the retcon" of this as well... so Kuje's answer is pretty much the same from me too.
quote:
7) Races such as Illithids and Beholders, whom originally arived on Faerun from other Worlds through the use of Spelljamming. Does/can this still hold true in 3e?
Spelljamming is still a known "aspect" of planar travel/spheroid travel in 3e FR -- this is due in part to comments made by Rich, Ed and the few details mentioning spelljamming in the FRCS. So, such races visiting and then taking root in the Realms is still viable so long as you adhere to the fact that FR's Prime Material is now an infinite expanse. Realmspace does NOT equal the Realms Cosmology. Realmspace is the Crystal Sphere in which Abeir-Toril (and other planets and celestial bodies) exists, and this Crystal Sphere, in the new cosmology, is a part of the Tree.
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| Kuje |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 18:19:29
3) I'm not sure, and that's something WOTC has to fix, if they ever do.
4) I guess they got tired of us complaining about the retcon's that make no sense or Ed decided that he wanted to still to the long established continuity of FR and so he added Limbo back in. WOTC did it as well with the addition of Sigil in Faiths & Pantheons. Thus, a lot of us don't understand the retcon, if they are just going to retcon it back towards the Wheel/Ring. :)
5) As far as I know it did but the Orcus version of FR is not the same Orcus of the Wheel/Ring. Each named being only shares thier names, not the same bodies, unlike how they did in 1e/2e.
6) We've, on the wotc boards, have debated the Blood War, and yes, it's kind of redundent now, since there's not enough souls to supply both armies unless they come from other Prime Materials. Which leads us back to, why retcon the retcon. :)
7) Again, as far as we know, this is true. Spelljammer does exist in some form since it's mentioned in the FRCS and Richard Baker and others have said it still does take place. Those races could have either come from other Prime Materials, or the far reaches of FR's Prime Material since each Prime Material is infinite unlike 2e which had one infite Prime with most of the campaign worlds floating within it in thier crystal shells/spheres. |
| Faraer |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 18:10:00
Paj, I think you're misconceiving the 3E changes a bit.
2. The planes listed in the FRCS and PGF aren't supposed to be a complete list, only samples.
4. The point of the retcon was to provide the Realms with planes custom-made for it rather than adapted from a different purpose. There's no stipulation that the old planes can't be reached from Faerūn.
6. Why assume that the Hells and the Abyss aren't linked, at least, to those of other worlds?
7. Certainly it does; spelljamming is not just still part of the continuity, it's specifically referred to in several sourcebooks. |
| Paj |
Posted - 03 Apr 2006 : 10:45:11
Ok, to start the list:
1) Renaming of certain NPC's. A prime example can be found in Power of Faerun, where Sythillis is renamed to Sothillis, as is his Empire.
2) Location of such things as the Khin-Oin/Tower of Incarnate Pain in FR as it no longer has a Grey Wastes or Gehenna
3) The location of most of the Gods unnamed in F&P or PGtF and their current Realm. Example: Diinkarazn in 2e is located in the Prison of the Mad God in the Abyss, yet PGtF specifically states that, "No Deities make their homes there" under the Abyss information.
4) Referencing Core D&D planes on the Great Wheel, if the aim of the Planar Retcon was to make each Campaign Setting different and independant of the next, why reference Greyhawk Planes?
5) Events such as the Great Modron March instigated by Orcus and his subsequent 'resurrection?' into Tenebrous, his killing of Primus, Maanzecorian and other Deities. Are they considered to have happened in FR? Or was Orcus' return done differently?
6) The feasability of the Blood War now that Baator and the Abyss only have Faerun from which to draw souls, as opposed to infinite worlds.
7) Races such as Illithids and Beholders, whom originally arived on Faerun from other Worlds through the use of Spelljamming. Does/can this still hold true in 3e? |
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