| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Adam_Garou |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 14:11:35
This may not be the appropriate forum, but I thought it made a little more sense here than the Sages boards. If I'm wrong, apologies from the start.
On a recent trip to a used bookstore, I acquired hard-copies of the 2e supplements "Faiths and Avatars" and "Powers and Pantheons". Both of these tomes mention instances in which a mortal was elevated to godhood, and took on those responsibilities:
*Cyric - basically granted divinity by Ao and given charge of the portfolios of the then-dead gods Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul ("strife" & "hatred", "murder", "death and the dead"). He later killed Leira and took "illusion/deception" into his portfolio, and some source states that he managed to somehow steal "intrigue" from Mask as well. He also (apparently entirely on his own) came to oversee "lies" as well, although that may be a subset of Leira's portfolio.
*Kelemvor - somehow the legions of the dead whom Cyric had mistreated all "voted" to make him the new God of the Dead, and Ao "ratified" the results. So, Kelemvor effectively ripped away "death and the dead" from Cyric's portfolio.
*Azuth - began life as a mortal mage, served as Mystra's Magister, and was apparently elevated to godhood by Mystra because her responsibility was the Weave itself and she required another to oversee those who USE the Weave.
*Velsharoon - found some mystic ritual written by Talos to ascend to divinity.
And on and on it goes. But here are the questions I have, and I'm hoping some scribes can provide some info on this:
*Other than by killing a deity and somehow "absorbing" its power (a la Cyric with Bhaal and Leira or Finder Wyvernspur with Moander), what are some ways in which mortals ascend to godhood? Most commonly it would seem that they are "sponsored" by an existing god to become demipowers and oversee specific sub-elements of that god's portfolio (like the Red Knight overseeing the strategy-and-tactics aspect of war for Tempus, or Uthgar becoming divine to oversee the warriors of the Uthgardt barbarians whom Tempus favored). But are there other ways? And does having a lesser power or demipower oversee certain aspects of one's portfolio diminish the greater god's power (i.e., is Tempus' dominion over war somehow weakened by the worship the Red Knight draws as the Lady of Strategy)? If so, why would they do it?
*Once divine, how do portfolios change hands? For example, how did Cyric steal "intrigue" from Mask? How did Bane attempt to seize "war" from Tempus (which is why he is not allowed weapon specialization according to "Faiths and Avatars")? How did Talos attempt to steal "wild magic" from Mystra?
I know that these situations are left vague, because we ARE talking about gods here--things we puny mortals will never fully understand. Nonetheless, I'm curious... after all, as DMs, we are sort of the "Aos" of our individual campaigns, and even if the topic never comes up in a game discussion I'd still like to know your thoughts.
To clarify where I'm coming from, I HAVE read the 2e supplements I mentioned above, along with SHADOWDALE, TANTRAS, WATERDEEP, PRINCE OF LIES, and CRUCIBLE: THE TRIAL OF CYRIC THE MAD. Nonetheless, I still haven't found the answers I'm looking for. Hope you can help. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Cardinal |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 16:03:06
 Gadzooks! He's onto Me!
Yes Oh Mighty Alaundo, I'll be sure to do that as soon as I return to My Lair in the North 
On a side note on how Portfolios are distributed. If it's up for grabs then anyone could statch it if there is a following for it. Unless it's already covered by another deity. (Even then that don't seem to stop some gods from trying to muscle in on another's turf). |
| Alaundo |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 08:28:15
quote:
Originally posted by The Cardinal
Drat I should have remembered that. I remember looking through Faiths and Panetheons Before I left all My books. Shh don't tell Alaundo I'm slipping  
 Ahem  I've told ye before, Cardinal... that tome should be read cover to cover, thrice a tenday!   |
| Kuje |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 01:42:39
quote:
Originally posted by The Cardinal
Drat I should have remembered that. I remember looking through Faiths and Panetheons Before I left all My books. Shh don't tell Alaundo I'm slipping
That's okay. :) I forget things sometimes, especially when WOTC changes things repeatedly. |
| The Cardinal |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 01:18:38
Drat I should have remembered that. I remember looking through Faiths and Panetheons Before I left all My books. Shh don't tell Alaundo I'm slipping |
| Kuje |
Posted - 14 Jun 2006 : 01:01:04
quote:
Originally posted by The Cardinal
On the Theme or Orcus, The other Scribes are right, no longer is he a Deity, althoug if you Read in BoVD, I think it was Orcus who is still closest to reaching Godhood (again?).
I know little on Velsharoon so I'll remain Mute there.
And Portfolios are tricky things. I myself (after reading up on a great many things) have found One Portfolio once claimed to now have been 'lost in the shuffle' *Grins*. And if I may throw in a side bit of fun, Just to see if I can bait The Sage, This is the Portfolio that's Been Lost in the Deity Shuffle.
*plays Jeopardy music*
Actually, in FR he was a deity until the Player's Guide retconed that out but in 3e's Faiths & Pantheons it lists him as a deity. |
| The Cardinal |
Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 23:32:55
On the Theme or Orcus, The other Scribes are right, no longer is he a Deity, althoug if you Read in BoVD, I think it was Orcus who is still closest to reaching Godhood (again?).
I know little on Velsharoon so I'll remain Mute there.
And Portfolios are tricky things. I myself (after reading up on a great many things) have found One Portfolio once claimed to now have been 'lost in the shuffle' *Grins*. And if I may throw in a side bit of fun, Just to see if I can bait The Sage, This is the Portfolio that's Been Lost in the Deity Shuffle.
*plays Jeopardy music* |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 23:19:30
Is Velsharoon the deity the same Velsharoon who had an aerial battle over Halruaa some centuries ago? |
| Cyric-The-Insane |
Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 21:56:46
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Oh yes and he can't get anyone in Thay to worship him.
if by "can't get anyone" you mean EVERY red mage who dabbles in Necromancy or any mage attempting to become a lich.. then yes thats pretty accurate..
I guess..
Velsharoon and Kossuth are the two many dieties worshipped in Thay.
Note: Eventually all portfolio's are going to belong to Cyric so I don't see any reason to argue about this. Your just sorting pins from needles.. Hehe |
| Thmpr |
Posted - 13 Jun 2006 : 17:36:15
Id like to jump in on this topic, if I may, if you look closely you will see a common theam tying all mortal ascensions together. The mortals took up portfolios that reflect their personality as mortals. I think that is were it has to start, a fighter wouldnt take up a wizard type portfolio and so on.
Then the mortal must be a powerful agent for good/evil or law/chaos or the balance of the two.(this woild be were a sponcer would come in)
The mortal must have fought against great odds and won.(this is were the epic Quest would come in)
The mortal should have some sort of following, a group who truly beleve, this in essence would be the hardest part, I think.(this would derive from the first two)
The same formula could be used for achieving "living Sainthood" and/or "Quasi-deiti status", which might be "easier".(Greyhawk has both I think)As a thought I wonder if Chosen should be here too?
just my humble oppinion. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 16 Apr 2006 : 17:52:17
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
In Tchazzar's case, didn't Tiamat have a behinds the scenes hand (or claw) in his ascention?
As far as Orcus goes, he was a lesser god, was killed by Kiaraunsalee, became the undead creature Tenebrous, then returned to being a demon lord, and that all actually happened back in 2nd Edition.
Yes, but in his 2e return after all that happened, he was still a deity. Especially in FR until the sourcebooks that came after Faiths & Pantheons changed that. :) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 16 Apr 2006 : 06:39:51
In Tchazzar's case, didn't Tiamat have a behinds the scenes hand (or claw) in his ascention?
As far as Orcus goes, he was a lesser god, was killed by Kiaraunsalee, became the undead creature Tenebrous, then returned to being a demon lord, and that all actually happened back in 2nd Edition.
I have always pictured Velsharoon as attracting the "I'm learning necromancy for power's sake" kind of wizard, the kind that has skelaton man servants in his house, but is just as likely to learn level draining magic, etc. In other words, I don't picture Velsharoon as having as many "raise an undead army and turn the world into the living dead" kind of servants as Orcus has.
|
| Faraer |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 18:08:58
That piece of current clack first appeared, without the DM's note, in Polyhedron #55 p. 25.
I win!  |
| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 16:25:14
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
2) The 2nd of the trilogy of 2E deity books, Powers & Pantheons, lists Vellys history. (The other two books in that wonderful trilogy are Faiths & Avatars, and Demihuman Deities. The more recent 3E Faiths & Pantheons is but a pale shadow of the deity trilogy.)
I'll add, it was first mentioned that he was working/wanted to become a deity in Hall of the High King in the back of the book in the adventure hooks section.
Rumor #9... in Appendix 8.
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 16:16:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
2) The 2nd of the trilogy of 2E deity books, Powers & Pantheons, lists Vellys history. (The other two books in that wonderful trilogy are Faiths & Avatars, and Demihuman Deities. The more recent 3E Faiths & Pantheons is but a pale shadow of the deity trilogy.)
I'll add, it was first mentioned that he was working/wanted to become a deity in Hall of the High King in the back of the book in the adventure hooks section. :) It also lists his mortal stats. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 14:32:18
quote:
Originally posted by Feanor
Some questions I have :
1. If someone slays a deity/absorb his divine essence, but he does not want to ascend, can godhood be forced upon him ? Since, in the end, it comes down to Ao, I recall that he did not want to grant godhood to someone who was not willing to accept it.
2. In what book is Velsharoon's ascension described ?
1). Ao likely wouldn't, but he could force godhood on anyone. However, he'd more likely either elevate another willing and worthy person, or pass out the portfolios among the appropriate deities, or the portfolio would be up for grabs.
2) The 2nd of the trilogy of 2E deity books, Powers & Pantheons, lists Vellys history. (The other two books in that wonderful trilogy are Faiths & Avatars, and Demihuman Deities. The more recent 3E Faiths & Pantheons is but a pale shadow of the deity trilogy.) |
| Feanor |
Posted - 13 Apr 2006 : 13:13:37
Some questions I have :
1. If someone slays a deity/absorb his divine essence, but he does not want to ascend, can godhood be forced upon him ? Since, in the end, it comes down to Ao, I recall that he did not want to grant godhood to someone who was not willing to accept it.
2. In what book is Velsharoon's ascension described ? |
| khorne |
Posted - 31 Mar 2006 : 09:30:48
quote:
Originally posted by Vainelus
Didn't Tiamat eat Tchazzar shortly after he became a God? and then she took his form and portfolio whenever appearing in or around Chessenta? I might be getting my deities mixed up, but I do not remember Tchazzar actually being a god for very long.
Correct. He got beaten and eaten, and Tiamat began impersonating him. |
| Vainelus |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 18:05:31
Didn't Tiamat eat Tchazzar shortly after he became a God? and then she took his form and portfolio whenever appearing in or around Chessenta? I might be getting my deities mixed up, but I do not remember Tchazzar actually being a god for very long. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 07:26:00
quote:
Originally posted by GungHo
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Well...what you just said.
Claim to be divine.
Display miraculous abilities (high level and all that) etc.
Worked for a certain red dragon.
You are right  Tchazzar indeed accomplished this. But it would take the worship of a large kingdom to ascend to divinity, and I think Ao has the final word here. Otherwise there would probably be a lot of high-level-wizards-turned-gods in the Realms (such as two archmages in the Border Kingdoms ). Maybe Ao felt that Chessenta needed a hero deity of its own? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 05:50:59
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Really, so P&P has been overwritten? Where?
I believe it was the Player's Guide to Faerūn that nixed his deific status...
Yes, that's it. :) Since it says there are no deities in the Abyss and Orcus resides in the Abyss, thus he can't be a deity and be in the Abyss. :) Champions of Evil, or whatever it is, also has such info. :)
Champions of Ruin .
|
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 04:11:27
Well it's a bit of a Yo-Yo like effect honestly but I think it makes sense.
Does anyone think that Velsharoon is sponsoring his cult or is it just the odd case of worshippers of a Demon-Prince may outnumber that of a Lich King Deity?
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 04:10:10
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Really, so P&P has been overwritten? Where?
I believe it was the Player's Guide to Faerūn that nixed his deific status...
Yes, that's it. :) Since it says there are no deities in the Abyss and Orcus resides in the Abyss, thus he can't be a deity and be in the Abyss. :) Champions of Evil, or whatever it is, also has such info. :) |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 00:22:06
Well there was certainly a runaround with that huh.
Well thanks for the info Wooley, that changes a lot for my campaign. I admit, I think its a good decision.
|
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Mar 2006 : 00:07:25
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Really, so P&P has been overwritten? Where?
I believe it was the Player's Guide to Faerūn that nixed his deific status... |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 23:48:11
Really, so P&P has been overwritten? Where?
|
| Kuje |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 23:40:51
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
quote:
Although, it's hard to see how a single demipower's support of the undead state balances out the dislike of a greater power plus a demipower-who-was-formerly-the-greatest-power-this-side-of-Ao. Guess that's another of those great mysteries.
Well undead aren't exactly that prevalent, besides Orcus is a Lesser Power (or was he even Intermediate in Powers and Pantheons?)
Actually, he's neither any more. Current FR lore states that he isn't a deity at all. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 23:34:45
quote:
Although, it's hard to see how a single demipower's support of the undead state balances out the dislike of a greater power plus a demipower-who-was-formerly-the-greatest-power-this-side-of-Ao. Guess that's another of those great mysteries.
Well undead aren't exactly that prevalent, besides Orcus is a Lesser Power (or was he even Intermediate in Powers and Pantheons?)
|
| GungHo |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 22:42:47
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Well...what you just said.
Claim to be divine.
Display miraculous abilities (high level and all that) etc.
Worked for a certain red dragon. |
| Adam_Garou |
Posted - 29 Mar 2006 : 21:02:30
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
Listen, Velsharoon has ticked off Talos and is about to betray Mystra to Shar whom has a history of eating her allies.
Oh yes and he can't get anyone in Thay to worship him.
Plus, people have Orcust to worship for an evil necromancy god.
So yeah, he's dumb as a post ;-)
Um... maybe. The guy was smart enough to realize that Talos was making him burn up all his newly-acquired divine energy like there was literally no tomorrow and managed to play Azuth and Talos off each other to keep himself "safe" while he hatched his own plots and plans. I wouldn't call that "dumb", although luck or Ao's oversight might have contributed to it.
Why can't he get anyone in Thay to worship him? Just because Szass Tam knew him when they were younger? The whole "familiarity breeds contempt" thing?
Maybe people are able to worship Orcus if they're into the whole "evil necromancy" thing, but POWERS AND PANTHEONS speculates (IIRC) that Ao may have allowed Velsharoon to obtain and maintain his deity status to balance out the fact that Kelemvor and Jergal really hate undead. From that, I would assume that Velsharoon's still more likely to draw human necromancer-worshipers than Orcus... if for no other reason than however twisted a lich-god's mind might be, it couldn't be worse than that of a demon-undead-god.
Although, it's hard to see how a single demipower's support of the undead state balances out the dislike of a greater power plus a demipower-who-was-formerly-the-greatest-power-this-side-of-Ao. Guess that's another of those great mysteries. |
| Charles Phipps |
Posted - 28 Mar 2006 : 00:43:17
Listen, Velsharoon has ticked off Talos and is about to betray Mystra to Shar whom has a history of eating her allies.
Oh yes and he can't get anyone in Thay to worship him.
Plus, people have Orcust to worship for an evil necromancy god.
So yeah, he's dumb as a post ;-)
|
