| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Archwizard |
Posted - 21 Mar 2006 : 22:24:18
I know the book isn't the most popular of FR books, but I was curious as to what area it was set in. I haven't read the book myself, but I figured it would be a good place to look for open land to call my own for potential campaign expansion. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 00:26:06
Master Icelander,
Do you have a different URL for that? It is showing broken right now.
Best regards,
|
| cpthero2 |
Posted - 22 Sep 2020 : 00:23:41
Explorer Markustay,
Do you have an updated map for that link? It is showing broken.
Best regards,
|
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 28 Aug 2020 : 22:13:17
Well, at that point Mystra usually blocks magic, or Elminster snaps finger, or Khelben handwaves... those characters are hated by the D&D general player base for something.
I mean, the only reason technological advancements in the Realms got stuck in an eternal middle ages level is because some god doesn't want technology to advance (Gond). And we know Mystra is a meddlesome busybody. She may be just stopping magic to be used heavily on war cuz reasons. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Aug 2020 : 21:09:50
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, this is one of my major pet peeves is so many people describe battles without considering factors of this world that would not exist in the realms. Castle walls and such are all well and good, but when my having a group of ten or flying mounts means I can drop stones on your castle... or the idea that I have spells that can literally make a hole in a castle wall like its mud... or I can freeze a moat solid .... or fill in a trench in mere seconds with some low level magic ...
That was one of the things I did appreciate in the Game of Thrones stories. They didn't have a lot of high magic, but just the concept that they had a massive fortress that was turned to melted walls by a flying dragon only make sense. High Magic and magical beings is an extreme game changer and the fact that you can have forces with the ability to fly, burrow, turn to gas, phase through things, turn invisible, change their appearance to match your own allies, and countless other things just gets forgotten when it comes to major battles by some.
Well, in a place where you have magical means to attack, this also means you have magical means to defend as well. I guess, that's the whole point of the war wizards of Cormyr or the wards of Waterdeep.
But that's my point... they don't. You also don't see people making tactical decisions that make special use of magic a lot of times, and most cities don't have wards (not that Waterdeep's wards protect against much).
Just to give some quick and easy examples.... a common magic item (so common that almost every adventurer ends up having one) is a bag of holding. If this is combined with anyone on a flying mount (doesn't have to be a highly trained or high level person), they can literally fly above a target and "dump" bag after bag of small stones, arrow heads, nails, etc....
Another use would be to fill it with simple lamp oil (you can fill up about 10 of the 64 cubic feet before hitting the weight limit, but still, that's about 100 gallons of lamp oil per bag.
That's just me considering one extremely abundant magic item in use by someone with another fairly common resource (a flying mount, or a person flying, etc..). Take this to a somewhat coordinated task of having several individuals doing it at once, and you can see how the tower walls on the exterior of a castle could quickly become overwhelmed. Throw in another common resource (invisibility) on those individuals and you can see another layer of tactics.
It doesn't all have to be flying either. Simple spells or magic items can make your soldiers look like their soldiers, and thus spying and infiltration of the enemy camps would be commonplace.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining to complain, I just feel like opening up the discussions helps people see the issues. I see several threads lately where people are proposing concepts that would work in our world without thinking of the security issues they'll run into simply because of magic and monsters that exist (to note, I'm only responding to your quote because you responded, not because I'm seeing you putting forth some odd ideas). Monsters and evil NPC's are intelligent too, and they'll do things to make use of the resources they have available. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 28 Aug 2020 : 03:39:53
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Novels are the only places likely to contain remotely enough detail to actually describe anything. Sourcebooks only mention a few facts and if you only rely on that, you're effectively making up 99% of everything that there is literally no consistency between any two versions of the Realms.
Also, the Blade Kingdoms contain actually interesting things, such as condottieri-cum-aristocracy, military theory that doesn't ignore the available technology (the Realms have everything that late 15th and the early 16th century on Earth had, so it's weird why some authors keep featuring supposedly competent soldiers equipped and operating like it's the 13th century) and generals that don't ignore magic or flying cavalry.
You may have a point there. But I usually chose novels that follow the Realms internal consistency, and I recall this novel creates more problems that it solves.
quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
Yeah, this is one of my major pet peeves is so many people describe battles without considering factors of this world that would not exist in the realms. Castle walls and such are all well and good, but when my having a group of ten or flying mounts means I can drop stones on your castle... or the idea that I have spells that can literally make a hole in a castle wall like its mud... or I can freeze a moat solid .... or fill in a trench in mere seconds with some low level magic ...
That was one of the things I did appreciate in the Game of Thrones stories. They didn't have a lot of high magic, but just the concept that they had a massive fortress that was turned to melted walls by a flying dragon only make sense. High Magic and magical beings is an extreme game changer and the fact that you can have forces with the ability to fly, burrow, turn to gas, phase through things, turn invisible, change their appearance to match your own allies, and countless other things just gets forgotten when it comes to major battles by some.
Well, in a place where you have magical means to attack, this also means you have magical means to defend as well. I guess, that's the whole point of the war wizards of Cormyr or the wards of Waterdeep. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 19:28:29
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
[quote]Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Also, the Blade Kingdoms contain actually interesting things, such as condottieri-cum-aristocracy, military theory that doesn't ignore the available technology (the Realms have everything that late 15th and the early 16th century on Earth had, so it's weird why some authors keep featuring supposedly competent soldiers equipped and operating like it's the 13th century) and generals that don't ignore magic or flying cavalry.
Yeah, this is one of my major pet peeves is so many people describe battles without considering factors of this world that would not exist in the realms. Castle walls and such are all well and good, but when my having a group of ten or flying mounts means I can drop stones on your castle... or the idea that I have spells that can literally make a hole in a castle wall like its mud... or I can freeze a moat solid .... or fill in a trench in mere seconds with some low level magic ...
That was one of the things I did appreciate in the Game of Thrones stories. They didn't have a lot of high magic, but just the concept that they had a massive fortress that was turned to melted walls by a flying dragon only make sense. High Magic and magical beings is an extreme game changer and the fact that you can have forces with the ability to fly, burrow, turn to gas, phase through things, turn invisible, change their appearance to match your own allies, and countless other things just gets forgotten when it comes to major battles by some. |
| deserk |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 17:09:18
Forgotten Realms has unfortunately a few uninspiring areas that should be greatly reworked and rehabilitated. The worst offenders tending to be the historical analogue areas, especially where they've not just copy pasted cultures over, but RW historical events and characters, i.e. Genghis Khan (Yamun Khahan) and Hernan Cortes (Cordel).
But the Blade Kingdoms could altogether be ignored as if it never existed. I would at least greatly welcome it's space to be filled by something interesting and Realmsian. It would be nice if we still got Dragon/Dungeon Magazine articles that enhanced and brushed up certain either long-neglected or poorly done regions of the Realms, like we got with Hordelands (Dragon 359), Moonshae Isles (Dungeon 147), Chessenta (Dungeon 178) and Vaasa (Dungeon 177). Given that we most assuredly won't get books covering any place outside Western Heartlands (in at least this decade), I feel it's the least WotC could do. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 16:58:47
quote:
Originally posted by Zeromaru X
Or you can just ignore the novels in favor of the internal consistency of your Realms. I've done that with the Drizzt novels, and my Realms work fine.
Novels are the only places likely to contain remotely enough detail to actually describe anything. Sourcebooks only mention a few facts and if you only rely on that, you're effectively making up 99% of everything that there is literally no consistency between any two versions of the Realms.
Also, the Blade Kingdoms contain actually interesting things, such as condottieri-cum-aristocracy, military theory that doesn't ignore the available technology (the Realms have everything that late 15th and the early 16th century on Earth had, so it's weird why some authors keep featuring supposedly competent soldiers equipped and operating like it's the 13th century) and generals that don't ignore magic or flying cavalry. |
| Zeromaru X |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 16:43:11
Or you can just ignore the novels in favor of the internal consistency of your Realms. I've done that with the Drizzt novels, and my Realms work fine. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 16:19:17
The specific mention of new hand-gonners and arquibusers, deplored by more traditional military commanders, also specifically dates the events of Council of Blades shortly after the Time of Troubles, according to the information about smokepowder weapons in Forgotten Realms Adventures.
I really don't see how to justify personal firearms, as opposed to bombards, being a new invention inspired by Gond during the Time of Troubles, but the weapons nevertheless having made it into regular military use in the Blade Kingdoms some 140 years previously.
It just seems that the 1217 DR date can't really work unless we invoke time travel, retroactive causality and reality loops. |
| Icelander |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 16:04:00
It just feels like the date of 1217 DR introduces a lot more inconsistencies than it fixes anything.
It means that the Blade Kingdoms would have been founded in the first years of the 11th century DR, during the height of the Chessentan Empire, even while Tchazzar was still Emperor, if we take the 'two hundred years' in the parts about history literally (and even if they are not exact, 'two hundred years before' is more likely to refer to two centuries and a bit than it is to refer to less than that).
It's a lot more plausible for them to have been founded after Chessenta dissolves into warring cities in the mid-12th century DR, especially given that the Chondathan mercenaries are said to have moved in on Chessentan ruins with insufficient protectors. That matches a wartorn Chessenta in the middle of civil war, but it doesn't really match the Chessentan Empire at its height. |
| George Krashos |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 15:46:36
quote:
Originally posted by Icelander
Does anyone know why the Council of Blades is stated, in the http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/FR_Timeline.asp#index" target="_blank">Known Chronological Listing of Forgotten Realms Fiction, to have taken place in 1217 DR?
Because the novel specifically mentions the Chessentan mercenary Renegades, under Helyos, who flourished around 1357 DR.
What detail in the novel supports the 1217 DR date?
None, but given its aberrant content it was decided to take it out of the "current Realms" to avoid having anyone having to directly deal wth the events and locations contained within it in further products. One of the worst examples of unoriginal, RW analogue writing seen by the Realms.
No reason that the Helyos and the Renegades described in FR15 can't be the descendants and successors of the group mentioned in the novel.
-- George Krashos |
| Icelander |
Posted - 27 Aug 2020 : 13:12:01
Does anyone know why the Council of Blades is stated, in the http://www.wizards.com/forgottenrealms/FR_Timeline.asp#index" target="_blank">Known Chronological Listing of Forgotten Realms Fiction, to have taken place in 1217 DR?
Because the novel specifically mentions the Chessentan mercenary Renegades, under Helyos, who flourished around 1357 DR.
What detail in the novel supports the 1217 DR date? |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 17:28:13
Thank You, rjfras.  |
| rjfras |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 07:13:05
yea, i found my copy of VR stuck between some stuff I had recently moved.. The spelling on the map is Lotoli |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 05:32:52
Thanks, I appreciae all your help. Even without more settlements, those geographic features are a great find.
It may be Lotoli - I was working with a pdf of Vilhon Reach, and that map's a little blurry.
Anyone have a physical copy of that map (the VR one)? |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 04:39:48
I dug the book out of my shelves, took me a while to remember which one. O_o
Looking at the map now, I don't think you missed any cities. My mistake for saying there are additional cities than the ones in Vilhon Reach. I was working off of memory. The CoB map spells one city Lotoli.
There are a few names for geological features.
- Hills of Apion - Hill range just north of Zutria.
- Trevi River - River that empties into the Akanamere just north of Lomatra.
- Valley of Umbricci - Just east of Colletro (possibly encompassing Colletro)
- Pass - unnamed passage through the mountains from Colletro to a bend in the Trevi River a bit before it meets the Akanamere.
That's all for now. I will try to get a photo of the map to you when I find my camera so you can see for yourself. I don't think it's done to any scale, just a rough map showing relative locations. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 14 Apr 2009 : 04:23:50
Well, if you feel like taking the time, you can look at the Vilhon Reach map and the one from the novel and tell me what you notice is missing (and where I should place it).
As is, that area got pretty crowded on my map because the Vilhon Reach map showed certain cities around The Akanamere, and the Old Empires map completely different ones, so if you find a third set of locales, then thats a busy little area indeed. I'll be modifying that map regardless - I need to make it closer to the 2e one (and I haven't headed south yet wth newest continental map), and add-in Tor mak. |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 13 Apr 2009 : 23:53:36
I would send you a copy of the map if I had a scanner.
The Blade Kingdoms was an area I had tried to outline, keeping enough existing material to make it plug-and-play in a stricter Realms game, but still overriding much of the quaint bits. I have since misplaced the outline. I recalled one of the bits I had were a Latent Talent regional feat, giving access to psionic focus (and little else psionics related). From there I had a rough outline of several rival fighting schools that utilized the psionic focus mechanic in their own unique way. Each of these schools held varying influence with the many small kingdoms that dotted the area. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 13 Apr 2009 : 23:36:23
I really need to get a copy of that map from the novel now. 
I like the idea of the Blade Kingdoms being refugess from Jhaamdath, rather then from Chessenta - it gives them more of a Romaensque feel, rather then a toga-wearing 'greek' feel (and yet, still related-enough to be connected religously). |
| Dark Wizard |
Posted - 13 Apr 2009 : 22:57:24
Hmm, did not expect to see this thread of mine resurrected (or is it some sort of delayed healing surge now?) a full three years later.
I recall there was a more specific (not necessarily more detailed) map in the novel. It places the cities mentioned in the novel, most but not all of them noted on the Vilhon Reach map. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 08 Apr 2009 : 02:41:36
[stands back in awe] Whoa!
Sorry, Markus. I just checked, and it seems I don't have the book any more. I donated a bunch of stuff to the library before I moved east last year so I could get it all to fit in my car, and it looks like that was one of them. Thinking back on it, though, I think the book must have had a map. The relations between the various city states was a very important part of the plot, as was marching over the countryside to checkmate other armies. I don't see how they could have done it properly without some sort of map. What I don't remember is how good a map it actually was. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 08 Apr 2009 : 00:10:54
<waves hands in cryptic gestures> Threadomancy!!! 
Anyhow, I was looking through LoD for more FR locales (It's like an obsession), and came across Daufin, which lead me to this L-List material (and I wish to god I could re-write my one and only CKC article now - I'd use Ed's islands instead!).
Anyhow, as these things always go with Realms research, the more you scratch the surface, the deeper you realize everything is. The last locale on this list - Tor Mak - seems to be located in the Blade Kingdoms, and would probably make the IDEAL location for this 'lost 13th City of the Sword'.
Looks like I'll be updating my Vilhon Reach map as well....
Did this novel come with a map? If so, is it identical to the Vilhon Reach one? I've started going back through novels, and I'm finding a lot of stuff on those small detailed maps that weren't on any others. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 17:46:24
I don't think anything's really been published about them. What I'm not sure is if they appeared on the maps before or after Council of Blades was published (in other words, if the book grabbed a neglected area and proceeded to mangle it, or the map makers realized afterward that they needed to add the cities to the existing maps). Since the entire Nobles series seemed to focus on areas that hadn't been much touched by Realms fiction up to that point, I'm guessing it's the former.
Anyway, I once did a fairly comprehensive search of all the books dealing with that general area, and I didn't find any published info on them. Not even a little note or sidebar. However, that was back in Second Edition. I don't follow Third Edition nearly as closely, as I have major issues with many of the changes they made, so there may have been notice made somewhere in a 3e product. Someone else would have to answer that question. |
| Archwizard |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 09:28:13
Thanks for the link Sage, I didn't know the book could be available for so little. Although at this point I think I've already diverged enough significantly to not warrant getting the book. I should probably save up for Ghostwalker, probably picking that up over the weekend. Then there's Blackstaff when it comes out, and maybe the Last Mythal series once the trilogy is complete.
Thanks for the feedback, Hoondatha. I'm not playing in any FR games now, so this is how I get my FR fix.
At this point I'm having trouble working through some of the information presented over the last 15 years or so, all in the maps of the area since no published source has information on the Blade Kingdoms. In the Old Empires supplement, the map shows the area of the Blade Kingdoms on the edge of Chessenta, though not labeled as such. On the map are the villages Gai (perhaps Gaj, can't make out the font) and Villon in the area. I looked through the stuff on Chessenta, but no mention of those locations.
In the Vilhon Reach sourcebook, the Blade Kingdoms are labeled and also in the area are the villages of Lotoll and Kirenzie as well as the city states of Colletro, Zutria, Sumbria, and Lomatra. Again, there seems to be no mention of those settlements in the actual supplement itself.
Finally, a large map from the FR Atlas shows the town of River's Run, which is south of Nun, I have seen no mention of that in any of the relevant sources.
I'm trying to find out if anything has been mentioned of them and from there what to do with them once I figure that out. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 02:45:10
That sounds promising. Really, there's a whole lot you could do with what you've been sounding out. It, frankly, sounds a lot more interesting than what's been published.
The canon Blade Kingdoms were a group of warring city states that would, every spring, engage in a war of maneuver, with no fighting ever taking place. Opposing generals would engage in, essentially, a giant game of chess, marching all over until one had maneuvered the other into a serious disadvantage. It's one of the book's more interesting ideas.
On the other hand, you could also go a route more like ancient Egypt, where there was one Pharoh who ruled over both Upper and Lower Egypt, and wore a double crown. That way you could have one monarch (with a really interesting, combined crown) and the place could still be callled the Blade Kingdoms.
Keep tossing your ideas up here, I'm really enjoying this. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 00:46:06
Nobleknight.com has Council of Blades available for just $4.95.
See here. |
| Archwizard |
Posted - 24 Mar 2006 : 00:36:24
Yeah, at a glance, the book is difficult to acquire and expensive to buy. If it was touted as a great book I would pursue further, but as an average novel, $35 is not worth it for a used copy.
I am curious to know whether the novel was written first and the Vilhon Reach material came after and just put it on the map, or if the author took the name off the map and developed it on his own.
For the Jhaamdathan influence, I wasn't thinking along the lines of a surviving 13th city or even anything remotely as vital. I'm considering keeping it somewhat backwater, but no less interesting due to the out-of-the-way corner of the Realms. I had more in mind a small but decent number of survivors, towns and villages, a bit removed from the high psionics of the main 12 cities. It was noted that the Jhaamdathans were skilled swordsmen and psionicists. I feel that swordsmanship would be easier to preserve than the more esoteric psionics, especially with the slumber of Auppenser. That their authoritarian psiocracy had some policies that might have contributed to the tidal wave and ostracised their primary deity, I think might cause some stigma against highly announced psionic influences. At the other end, with the chaos of the sudden collapse of the social and political system and ecological and economical ruin of the area, swordsmanship skills would be of immediate use. The warfare in Chondath in previous centuries would help keep that useful. Also, Chessenta seemed to have a bit of a martial culture, so those influences could further promote swordsmanship. And finally, the place is called the Blade Kingdoms, that might indicate some pride in bladework within the culture.
The surviving psionics influence I think might have gone underground a bit. Several notable but low profile practicioners of the Invisible Art, a handful of psionic organizations, psionic warriors more than psions. Many of them would probably be actively working to better their art and to keep a watch over the blatantly dangerous or callous psionics use. Not hard for modern analysts of Jhaamdathan history to make using hindsight considering Jhaamdath was fine for centuries until the metamind emperor came to power and then everything went down hill (or down stream in this case  ).
I noticed that the ruins of Jhaamdath was where Tyr entered Faerun with his Procession of Justice. Tyr is fairly active throughout the south with large temples in the Tethyr and known by other names in Calimshan. He could be a notable influence within the Blade Kingdoms. Paladins, especially holy warriors of the Triad, strike a particular cord with me. I was partly inspired to think about this due to the new lore on Impiltur.
Also, while I do not have Power of Faerun yet, I am aware that the Border Kingdoms were covered in that book, and some excerpts have been put up on the WotC site. I'm contemplating on whether to make the Blade Kingdoms many small petty realms making constant changes to borders and allegiances like the Border Kingdoms. Or something more cohesive, with a formal authority like a confederation or long standing alliance. Maybe they're even firmly united in something like a dual-monarchy, thus it would still be the Blade Kingdoms. |
| Hoondatha |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 13:33:42
I'd say skip the book. If you're going to be radically changing the setting (and it sounds like you are), then there's no need to read a mediocre book that will have no bearing on your end creation.
As for your Jhaamdath idea, I think it might work. Say that one of the cities was the just-founded Thirteen City of the Sword when the tidal wave struck. It was out of the way enough to escape destruction, and small and new enough to escape notice. The other cities were founded later, as their population grew.
So you have, essentially, a continuation of Jhaamdath that you can spin in whatever way you want. Do they still call themselves Cities of the Sword? How much of Jhaamdath's original culture still exists? That and plenty more areas could be covered. |
| Archwizard |
Posted - 22 Mar 2006 : 05:25:34
Thanks for the replies and information everyone.
Yeah, from what I've heard previously and now, it is a very strange area and difficult to work with if taken as canon, but seeing as so few actually like the place as mentioned in the novel, or acknowledge it, I guess I could feel okay about messing around with it.
It's what I'm looking for, but at the same time, not quite. I had a burst of inspiration last night and this was what came to mind as most fitting. My original thoughts were partly along the lines of a Jhaamdath remnant or derivative, part Chessentan, and some other ideas. I considered expanding the kingdom into the Akanul, since it's nearby and seemed relatively unoccupied, though Chessenta might lay claim to that entire area.
I guess it's time for more research to see what is possible to work with and more thought on the matter to see if it can all be pieced together. I could try to track down the book and read it to work in as much as possible, or just forget it and start from completely from scratch. What to do... |
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