| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Orog-Hai |
Posted - 26 Jan 2006 : 09:40:44
Where can i find some info on these potions |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Jan 2018 : 12:07:40
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Wooly - love that plothook. very flavorful and Realmsian. 
First off, I agree that 'any small amount' should work (with degrees dependent upon the amounts used). However, this also needs drawbacks, because then you'd have down-on-their-luck elves lining up at the local bloodbank, and the whole thing becomes a bit of a joke. My suggestion here is that the magic of the potion literally steals the years from the blood-giver, so while some may still be desperate enough to do this a few times (and dragons are practically immortal), they wouldn't consider doing this on a daily basis, like a diabetic pricking their finger.
So then we get into the "its TOO hard again" argument. GOOD... it should be. Its supposed to be HARD to live longer! That's why Mages resort to lichdom - if stretching one's lifespan was simple, everyone would be doing it. Even peasants would be saving their coppers for that one little chance they can squeeze-out a few more years. On the other hand, in a world where Gods are real, that might not be as important.
As for the Clone spell - lets think about this realistically. Would YOU do it? Honestly? Thats NOT really you. Thats a totally different person with your memories, etc. The 'you' that is 'you' still dies. Would you risk that? The very fact that clones can wake prematurely puts the lie to them actually being the same person. They're not. And what if someone wants a newer, younger 'you'? What if a King & Queen clone themselves very early on, and when the King is in his fifties, he decides to kill his aging wife because he recalls how much hotter she was when she was younger? Just tell the clone, "You had an accident". And what about the King? He's getting in his dotterage, and his councilors remember the old days when he was a manly, powerful leader that everyone listened to. One that could keep the kingdom united against its enemies. Now he's a withered old husk... would not the councilors be tempted to off the old King so King 2.0 wakes up? NOPE, clones are more of a danger than a solution. The moment you make one, people know they can easily replace you. And its NOT really you. Never fool yourself into thinking it is. Truly wise mages know this.
So yeah, longevity magic should be a DM special, and should be extremely rare and hard to do, otherwise you'd get a setting where 'the elite' (anyone with an adequate bank-account) would be living forever, and the rest would be just 'poor peons not worth extra life'. In fact, there's your plot for a great near-future horror story. The Elite 'farm' the chattel like vampires, because they use their blood to extend their own lives. On the other hand, it would make an excellent McGuffin to use old lore (1e/2e and even 3e) in a 5e setting. No need to explain why all the same people still work at that Inn a 120 years later - they found a secret stash of potions in the cellar. For the 'story' of FR (the canon), I wouldn't go anywhere near that. As a DM, I would use the hell out of it.
On the clone piece, not as written in 5e. Its why I specifically bring up that spell and that version... and its also why I say it really needs a rewrite. Its broken. Essentially, they specify that the old soul flows into the new body and that the old flesh is now useless for any kind of magic that returns it to life. Given that people will have met people who have come back as clones, the society at large might be as accepting of this idea as something like turning into a lich or a ghost or transferring their body into a golem. In fact, I'd be most would favor this concept (I'm still my old self, but even younger... not some stinky pile of bones.)
Now, at the same time, I'm using a twist on this rule in my own work for Lauzoril where I have a god of necromancy who effectively twins a soul of someone living to awaken a clone. However, that becomes god Shenanigans with a god whose portolios "kind of" mirror these weird possibilities. I want to come up with some weird implications to this, but honestly I haven't set my mind to it yet. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 28 Jan 2018 : 11:54:10
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
The only drawbacks are the clone animosity / remote possibility of magic jar failure and permadeath.
Not a problem in 5e really, because if you're looking to get younger, you wouldn't be leaving this body waiting around. The second its cooked, its kill yourself and come on young body. That's why I specified that in 5e, the potion of longevity becomes fairly useless IF someone can make a clone or have a clone made of themselves. |
| sfdragon |
Posted - 28 Jan 2018 : 10:14:02
the sun orchid elixir.....
yep made in the citadel of the alchemist in Thuvia in the continent of Garund along the innersea region of golarion the world of PAthfinder. made once a year as wooly said and sold in a different city each year in order to prevent highway robbers and thugs. well I shouldhave said auctioned, and if you dont win a bottle, you dont keep your belongings either...
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 28 Jan 2018 : 04:19:05
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
@Wooly - love that plothook. very flavorful and Realmsian.
Thank you; it is appreciated.
There's a nation in the Pathfinder setting that is built around the trade of an elixir that temporarily stops the aging process. It doesn't reverse again or restore lost youth -- it just stops the clock for 1d4 years, with no side effects.
The thing is, it's based on a particular, very hard to find flower, and only one person knows how to make it -- so every year, only 7 vials of the stuff are made, and one of those is drunk by the guy making them.
The nation's economy is built around the sale of those other 6 vials. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 27 Jan 2018 : 19:34:44
@Wooly - love that plothook. very flavorful and Realmsian.
First off, I agree that 'any small amount' should work (with degrees dependent upon the amounts used). However, this also needs drawbacks, because then you'd have down-on-their-luck elves lining up at the local bloodbank, and the whole thing becomes a bit of a joke. My suggestion here is that the magic of the potion literally steals the years from the blood-giver, so while some may still be desperate enough to do this a few times (and dragons are practically immortal), they wouldn't consider doing this on a daily basis, like a diabetic pricking their finger.
So then we get into the "its TOO hard again" argument. GOOD... it should be. Its supposed to be HARD to live longer! That's why Mages resort to lichdom - if stretching one's lifespan was simple, everyone would be doing it. Even peasants would be saving their coppers for that one little chance they can squeeze-out a few more years. On the other hand, in a world where Gods are real, that might not be as important.
As for the Clone spell - lets think about this realistically. Would YOU do it? Honestly? Thats NOT really you. Thats a totally different person with your memories, etc. The 'you' that is 'you' still dies. Would you risk that? The very fact that clones can wake prematurely puts the lie to them actually being the same person. They're not. And what if someone wants a newer, younger 'you'? What if a King & Queen clone themselves very early on, and when the King is in his fifties, he decides to kill his aging wife because he recalls how much hotter she was when she was younger? Just tell the clone, "You had an accident". And what about the King? He's getting in his dotterage, and his councilors remember the old days when he was a manly, powerful leader that everyone listened to. One that could keep the kingdom united against its enemies. Now he's a withered old husk... would not the councilors be tempted to off the old King so King 2.0 wakes up? NOPE, clones are more of a danger than a solution. The moment you make one, people know they can easily replace you. And its NOT really you. Never fool yourself into thinking it is. Truly wise mages know this.
So yeah, longevity magic should be a DM special, and should be extremely rare and hard to do, otherwise you'd get a setting where 'the elite' (anyone with an adequate bank-account) would be living forever, and the rest would be just 'poor peons not worth extra life'. In fact, there's your plot for a great near-future horror story. The Elite 'farm' the chattel like vampires, because they use their blood to extend their own lives. On the other hand, it would make an excellent McGuffin to use old lore (1e/2e and even 3e) in a 5e setting. No need to explain why all the same people still work at that Inn a 120 years later - they found a secret stash of potions in the cellar. For the 'story' of FR (the canon), I wouldn't go anywhere near that. As a DM, I would use the hell out of it. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Jan 2018 : 17:06:11
One of the adventure hooks I had an idea for was a potion that reversed aging -- but it worked a little too well...
Lady Lyrina’s wish for restored youth has become a nightmare.
Lyrina, the daughter of an expatriate Cormyrian nobleman, was once considered to be one of the most beautiful women in the city of Elturel. Many were the men that vied for her hand, but it was the wily merchant Danrel Greyves that won her heart. The two were wed, and lived happily together for more than four decades. During that time, their wealth grew steadily. At the time of his unfortunate death in a warehouse fire, nearly five years ago, Danrel had become one of Elturel’s wealthiest merchants.
Lady Lyrina grieved for her lost husband for three years. She neglected his businesses and even her own home; were it not for the skill of loyal retainers, much of Danrel’s wealth would have been lost in the years following his death. When she finally chose to shake off her black emotions, she resumed control of Danrel’s mercantile interests, and gradually started increasing her inherited wealth once more.
A chance remark from a friend gave Lyrina a new desire: she would find a way to reclaim her lost youth. She searched for almost two years, before buying a potion from a disreputable and somewhat sinister trader. The trader, one Dulgan of Mulmaster, was known to have many questionable associates and business practices, but stayed in business because he was careful to avoid breaking any laws, and was always true to the letter of any agreement – though rarely to the spirit of that agreement.
Dulgan assured the Lady Lyrina that the potion would restore her youth, though he mentioned her restored vigor might be accompanied by “one or two minor, unforeseen effects.” Against the recommendations of her friends and retainers, Lyrina downed the potion. Within minutes, she began feeling the energy of the potion moving through her tingling limbs. Before an hour had passed, Lady Lyrina had regained the remarkable beauty she’d been known for when less than thirty summers of age.
However, in the months since, Lyrina has realized the potion is continuing to work, albeit more slowly. It took her several months to see the changes, but she has since determined that for every month that passes, she is physically becoming a year younger. If the potion’s effects continue, within a year she will once more be an adolescent, and a year after that, she’ll be a newborn infant. What will happen then is unknown, but the possibilities are very frightening.
Lady Lyrina’s agents have attempted to contact Dulgan, but he is rumored to be in distant Amn. The PCs are hired to prevent Lady Lyrina from becoming any younger. It is recommended that they seek out Dulgan, but if they can arrest Lyrina’s age regression on their own, they are free to do whatever it takes. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 27 Jan 2018 : 16:01:55
"Permadeath" is already a constant "drawback" to anyone who dies from aging (or from other causes).
So there's really nothing to lose by following a flawed or risky road towards longevity. A chance of success along with a chance of failure is still better than the alternative.
Longevity potions/elixirs obviously have limits, if they were too easily obtained and had no "drawbacks" then other options (like liching) wouldn't be as common. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 21:02:41
The only drawbacks are the clone animosity / remote possibility of magic jar failure and permadeath. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 20:53:43
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Also, you need to remember that there exist some relatively simple spells (4-7th level) that allow the stealing of years, in some cases A LOT of years. This means that the creation of a longevity/youth potion would need to be as reasonable as using any of these other means or else no one would choose that path. For those about to yell stealing years is evil, remember that using such spells as offensive weapons against evil enemies is does not put one's alignment at risk any more than cutting their heads off in execution or binding their souls does.
On this subject, yeah, potion of longevity is practically useless in 5e for wizards who can clone themselves. I still say there should be some kind of drawback for that. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 26 Jan 2018 : 14:06:17
Again, the blood (or other body part) of a long-lived creature might be an ingredient of the potion without needing to kill or even harm the creature. There are numerous (non-Chosen) Good-aligned characters in the Realms who make use of longevity, and it seems very unlikely they'd sustain their lifespans with potions that require ingredients derived from things like boiling human babies.
A dragon might be convinced to bleed enough to fill a tiny vial, hardly a loss of even 1 hit point. But only in return for some kind of payment - a vast sum of wealth, valuable magical spell(s) or item(s), some quest or service, some kind of real power. A "super-intelligent" magic-using dragon might well understand exactly how its blood would be used and how precious a few more years would be to most humans. It might also need to be convinced that its blood would not be used as a component in some kind of magic, spell, or ritual which could somehow harm or manipulate it.
The more direct and less friendly approach is to attack the dragon, wounding it enough to spill blood. Killing the dragon wouldn't be necessary, though surviving the dragon would be.
Maybe any random elf street urchin will happily sell a pint of blood for some silvers, especially if told it'll be used for "healing" purposes. Maybe an elven hero will voluntarily offer blood and life to his allies, requiring no more than their continued friendship and heroic deeds.
I suppose the "blood" of any big old tree might work. Or a treant. Or a druid. But then, it's an "exotic" ingredient in a magical/alchemical formula - the blood alone might not be good enough unless it meets other symbolic or metaphorical conditions, is freely given, is of noblest lineage, is spilled by a mithril blade wielded in moonlight, is blessed by the high priest of Lebolas, whatever. It seems like it should somehow be the blood of world/magic, somehow connected to the Weave. I agree the ingredient should be "fantastic" but not "impossible" to obtain, and more easily accessible by epic heroes (even fighters and thieves!) than by mere NPC-stat commoners. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 21:55:44
Also, you need to remember that there exist some relatively simple spells (4-7th level) that allow the stealing of years, in some cases A LOT of years. This means that the creation of a longevity/youth potion would need to be as reasonable as using any of these other means or else no one would choose that path. For those about to yell stealing years is evil, remember that using such spells as offensive weapons against evil enemies is does not put one's alignment at risk any more than cutting their heads off in execution or binding their souls does. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 19:56:38
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Now, as for the more theoretical nature of the potion/magic, I'd say that it is rare enough that to a commoner it is the find of a lifetime, yet common enough that for an archmage creating his own supply is not unreasonable. For that to be the case the ingredients need to be exotic and expensive, but not insanely so (no tarrasque tails etc). The elf blood makes sense for 1 recipe usable for a non-elf, because elves have long lives. The same is true of MANY other creatures. I'd say the best ingredients would be something from an undying being - a planar being. It doesn't even have to be a powerful one - a mephit is eternal, for example but can be summoned by relatively weak priests/wizards. However, a warrior or thief or a common person could never gain these ingredients alone without a HUGE bit of luck. That's perfect.
I like that line of reasoning.
All PoL should use blood from something, and depending on what you use (and each recipe should differ in other ingredients as well), is how much 'life' you can distill out of it. An elf would just give you the common rulebook version. A dragon, perhaps a wee bit more (although there should also be some dangerous, possible side-effects. Accidental creation of a dragonborn?) An angel, or even God should give you WAY more life, but if you are going around draining Celestials (or worse, deities!), then you better be uber-powerful,, and even then, its not very realistic (maybe a celestial, but not a god - it would have to be an insanely weak god for you to be using it's blood supply). Fiend-blood might be interesting, but like the dragon, there should be consequences (even more-so - there should be some sort of 'corrupting factor' taking place. You keep drinking fiendish potions of Longevity and you'll start looking like a tiefling).
Terrasque blood? Thats a DM-special. I might have to use that for something I am working on... 
I could take this MUCH further, and get into how vampires and even Chosen can all be connected to this line of reasoning ("the life is IN the blood"), but then I'll have gone off the rails again, eh?
EDIT: An addition to the above -
For a more 'horror' bent to some of this, newborn babies (human) should also be a possibility. Witches were known for this (children work, but not as well as babies). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 19:55:12
That's a sound line of reasoning. Too bad we already have lore saying dragons were super-intelligent and had empires so long ago, because otherwise we could say humans have accidentally 'bred' dragons to be superior (it is a proven fact that animals - especially ones that interact with humans on a daily basis - are all 'growing smarter' because of us. EVERYTHING can learn, and they pass that on to their children).
So the dragons that are left - the ancient ones especially -should all be so crafty and powerful no human should be able to touch them. This is just one reason why I never use dragons - the thought that any human can defeat one is preposterous, IMO. In my purely HB world, dragons are beasts, like Linnorms, and thus, killable. I feel it just makes more sense that way (Tolkien be damned!)
|
| sleyvas |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 15:40:19
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Back to the topic of Longevity.
Really it just depends on what kind of campaign your DM wants. Some DMs jump over months and years at a time between adventures making aging a problem. Others have the same players on the same campaign for years without rolling the calendar forward. That's me.
I figure in an average 4 hour session we RP about 1 hour worth of game time - sometimes more based on camping etc. That being the case a potion of longevity really has no value in this type of campaign, except perhaps to counteract magical aging.
Now, as for the more theoretical nature of the potion/magic, I'd say that it is rare enough that to a commoner it is the find of a lifetime, yet common enough that for an archmage creating his own supply is not unreasonable. For that to be the case the ingredients need to be exotic and expensive, but not insanely so (no tarrasque tails etc). The elf blood makes sense for 1 recipe usable for a non-elf, because elves have long lives. The same is true of MANY other creatures. I'd say the best ingredients would be something from an undying being - a planar being. It doesn't even have to be a powerful one - a mephit is eternal, for example but can be summoned by relatively weak priests/wizards. However, a warrior or thief or a common person could never gain these ingredients alone without a HUGE bit of luck. That's perfect.
My only problem with using dragon parts for ingredients is the only way to make it reasonable is for there to be many many dragons - way more than the dozens to hundreds we know of around Faerun - otherwise they'd all be slaughtered for parts long before they grew old enough to pose much danger. I use dragon parts only for exceedingly rare magic. The experimental stuff and the things in legends - Longevity is among the most common and not appropriate.
On that note, I wouldn't be surprised if many young dragons aren't killed at a young age. I imagine that the dragons that live to a ripe old age are craftier, and thus they survived. Young dragons are probably a lot more "sure of themselves" on average, and perhaps a lot of them DO end up dead at the hands of adventurers before reaching adulthood. I fully imagine that the issue of young dragons invading villages and taking off with individuals is fairly common. Its just those villages are probably the less prepared ones... goblins, orcs, kobolds, lizard folk, gnolls, ogres, bugbears, etc...
I know a lot of folk view these humanoid races as being serious threats to the surrounding communities, but I actually view humanity and more powerful monsters as the more serious threat to them. I bet a LOT of humanoids end up as slaves. I bet a lot of them also end up as food for other humanoids and/or monsters. It really must suck to be a humanoid on Toril. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 15:01:00
Back to the topic of Longevity.
Really it just depends on what kind of campaign your DM wants. Some DMs jump over months and years at a time between adventures making aging a problem. Others have the same players on the same campaign for years without rolling the calendar forward. That's me.
I figure in an average 4 hour session we RP about 1 hour worth of game time - sometimes more based on camping etc. That being the case a potion of longevity really has no value in this type of campaign, except perhaps to counteract magical aging.
Now, as for the more theoretical nature of the potion/magic, I'd say that it is rare enough that to a commoner it is the find of a lifetime, yet common enough that for an archmage creating his own supply is not unreasonable. For that to be the case the ingredients need to be exotic and expensive, but not insanely so (no tarrasque tails etc). The elf blood makes sense for 1 recipe usable for a non-elf, because elves have long lives. The same is true of MANY other creatures. I'd say the best ingredients would be something from an undying being - a planar being. It doesn't even have to be a powerful one - a mephit is eternal, for example but can be summoned by relatively weak priests/wizards. However, a warrior or thief or a common person could never gain these ingredients alone without a HUGE bit of luck. That's perfect.
My only problem with using dragon parts for ingredients is the only way to make it reasonable is for there to be many many dragons - way more than the dozens to hundreds we know of around Faerun - otherwise they'd all be slaughtered for parts long before they grew old enough to pose much danger. I use dragon parts only for exceedingly rare magic. The experimental stuff and the things in legends - Longevity is among the most common and not appropriate. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 07:14:27
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
Moonwells are not pools of radiance. Two different phenomena. The first is a pool of water that has been blessed by a goddess and is highly magical. The second is a pool of pure magic. Think of it as the Weave distilled. The "water" of a pool of radiance is a manifestation of magic, not actual water. I like to compare it to the water in TRON.
I know that is not how they were meant in the original lore...
But its also a game, and I think lumping all these 'pools' into one set of mechanics would be helpful. I came up with idea a long time ago, that various 'Pools of Power' could be attuned to different deities (establish a conduit directly to their realms). In most cases, this would be energy-transference only, but the deity involved could reset certain parameters, and perhaps have it function as a Gate for a specific group of people (probably at much cost of deific power, maintaining such an 'artificial' Gate, but still far less costly then doing so without a Power Pool).
As I said, usually just used for energy transfers, and usually to augment/receive divine spells. In the case of the Moonshaes, we see that they were all 'attuned' to the Earthmother (as it should be), and she chooses to keep them in the 'off' position except for certain people, or certain phases of the Moon, etc., etc. While 'off', a Power Pool will appear to hold nothing more than normal water. At least, for a 'good' or neutral power. The power the conduit is linked to the god itself (through its realm), so there are other liquids that could manifest. Gond for example, may have a pool filled with pitch (crude oil), while evil gods may have one filled with brackish or scummy water, or even toxic (although a deity would have to be a greater god to make it deadly poison).
In some cases, the pool can also merely be linked to a plane. A powerful fiend can do this - reset the Pool to be connected to its plane of origin, in order for it to derive sustenance from the plane itself (in which case, the immersed being would find the pool's liquid acting like a healing salve, but only for beings from that plan of origin - beings of other alignments would take damage, and further away the alignment is, the more damage taken). Now, a God could take a pool away from another god, but only under two conditions. 1) That the god no longer cares about a particular pool, or is otherwise occupied, or 2) the new god is more powerful then the first, and it forces its will upon it. This usually requires mortals performing some sort of ritual on the Prime Material side, while the god itself is focusing on establishing the connection on the other (so Commune should probably also be involved).
In the unusual case where a pool isn't attuned to any particular plane or Realm, than anyone of sufficient power can try to attune it themselves, without any sort of deific intervention. If the connection is made to a Godly realm, however, you had better make sure the deity is not upset about you doing this on your own. This is how fiends (almost always archfiends) are sometimes able to take control of one of these Pools, if it was left 'unattended'. The only time you will find Pools in this condition is when the deity that had been involved had lost its godly status in that Crystal Sphere, which could either mean its aspect there was destroyed, or simply 'dwindled' due to lack of worship to something less then a true god (like an arch-something, or a demigod).
You will find nearly all Exarchs maintain one of these pools hidden somewhere, to keep a direct link to the Power they serve. They may be in plain sight - like a fountain in from of a cathedral, or something well hidden, but its nature is almost always kept secret (to avoid other Powers moving against them, and cutting-off any help they may need). Exarchs exist in a precarious 'in-between' state, existing on the prime Material as they do, and these Pools are the easiest way for them to Maintain their own power.
Lastly, Pools of Power - when controlled by a single God/Realm - can be hooked together to form Gates between each other. Some deities - like Eldath - are famous for this, and have hooked several together in series. Most Gods consider this too dangerous to consider, however, because they feel the more 'traffic' you have between the pools - even if its just your clergy - the more noticeable they become, and thus, the more vulnerable.
Think of a Pool of Power as a litte extension of a Godly Realm within the Prime Material. Some powers find these more important than others, while some just find them too much of a bother. Fiends love to find them unattended, of course, because any connection to a lower plane can be a dangerous and corruptive force.
And there you go - just about EVERY kind of pool you can imagine, linked under a unified set of lore/rules (with the option of tweaking each depending on the God and plane/Realm involved). And it also explains how and why Bane was able to 'steal' some from the Earthmother (because he DID, in canon).
EDIT:
Oh, almost forgot to connect this post to the actual topic. Some gods may wish to also give these pools other properties, once again, in-line with their Faiths and their Divine Realms. Any deity that is about healing, love, life, etc., may give these properties to the liquid within a Pool of Power, so that you may have a potion of Healing, Life, Longevity, youth, Love, etc, etc. Evil gods can do likewise, but tend toward potions that have ill effects. The caveat is that if the liquid is taken more than 100' from the pool, it begins to deteriorate. It will loose power over time, and the time itself will depend on the level of the God (1 day per DvR). Thus, a potion of healing taken from a pool of Mystra will normally last 20 days, but at 10 days it will only heal 1/2 as many HP. This falls completely under a DM's adjudication, of course. The potion may hold full power, or be completely depleted already, at their discretion. |
| Gelcur |
Posted - 25 Jan 2018 : 06:39:09
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Sorry for the threadomancy, but I note that the 1E DMG had elf blood as an ingredient for a potion of longevity.
Noting this old 1E trope, do people think there is any room in 5E for detail of this kind?
I can't speak specifically to 5E but in my experience having "requirements" that a DM can choose to enforce can be fun. Normally I let players decide how they want to RP spell components and that a pouch contains most everything you need.
This one time though a wizard in our group found a shop that would sell him a scroll of Aganazzar's Scorcher. He bought it very excitedly hoping to transcribe it into his spellbook and begin using it. The shop owner informed him after his purchase that sadly he had no Red Dragon scales on hand to sell him. But as luck had it a very bored local wizard in the corner of the shop overheard our wizards plight and offered to give him a Red Dragon scale if he would accept a challenge to a mageduel.
All this came from a small line in the spell that said Magical Focus, Red Dragon scale. I am sure my player will never forget being in an honest to goodness mageduel. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 03:33:18
Moonwells and pools of radiance are still very similar ideas, even if they have very different causes and manifest very different effects. The 2E Moonshae material outlined them (along with groves and stone circles and other things) in some detail.
There is also "Mystra's Well". A sort of font of liquid magic, never found twice in the same place, which could grant random magical powers, including longevity or immortality.
Tyranthraxus is a curious anomaly since he seems to have a very definite affinity for fire yet he also has a history of drawing sustenance from water. And he's already an ancient disembodied being who can apparently live/persist indefinitely anyhow. This inspires the possibility that longevity magics could take the form of a flame instead of a liquid, perhaps one that "burns away" death and decay, "reignites the spark" of life and growth.
I think the affinity for water and immersion in water in Constantine was a clear call-out to the importance of water in the Bible. The movie was, after all, a fiction "based" on Biblical scripture, it had to offer its own interpretations/adaptations of fundamentally important Biblical symbolism. Water is importantly symbolic of worldly life in every major mythos (including science), even in belief systems which present ultimately primal origins in fire, earth, void, chaos, or whatever. Besides - transcredible metaphysical profundity and associations with water/life/blood/subconscious/etc have long been a staple of fantastic narrative, so of course water's "special" significance is asserted/exploited in Constantine and TRON and The Matrix and Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Lord of the Rings and elsewhere.
Great rivers such as the River Oceanus or River Styx travel through many planes and their tributaries wind through, connect, and touch many worlds in the Great Wheel. The Astral Islands surround all planes and worlds with a "sea" or "ocean". The Cosmic (Yggdrasil or Ash) Tree has deep roots which draw sustenance from the very fundament of the cosmos. These (and many more) models of the planes all share a characteristic view of some kind of "water" permeating and suffusing and connecting different places, it seems to symbolically be the primary building block of a living universe. It's no wonder, then, that if water is the "blood" of the cosmos, a few "pools of radiance" or other little puddles could be found in the Realms yet originate (and have unfathomable depths) "outside" the Realms and "beyond" the Weave. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 23 Jan 2018 : 02:19:29
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think being completely submerged in just about any magic 'potion' (liquid) would put your body in a state of suspended animation, in regards to aging. In FR, Magic = Life. so you would be literally sitting in a vat of 'life'. And I think all the Moonwells count as those "Pools of..." from those novels, and I am sure there are others of that nature around the Realms. It almost seems to be some form of liquid medium that allows planer transferal of energies to be much easier (almost like a 'lubricant' in the great machinery of the universe). Kind of like a direct uplink to a power source (and they can be 'keyed' to different sources of Power, unlike 'nodes' which are preset). I recall from the movie Constantine he had to be 'in water' in some way to 'slip into hell', so it was basically the same type of mechanic - it acted as a lubricant to make the passage between planes easier. Call it 'Nether-Ease' LOL. If I were to assign a game mechanic to that stuff I'd say it gave you a 2-level boost for ANY sort of interplaner communication, travel, or channeling (which includes divine magic), for non-keyed, four level for specific-keyed (like trying to draw spells directly from particular god the the Moonwell is keyed to). And I also think all of those are hold-overs from back when Faerûun was somehow 'central' to the first World (if you think of the First World as a vast construction site, then those would be like generators you could go to for power). Thus, I think immersion in one of those will do you some good (if not extend your life or make you younger, than at least cure all your wounds).
Moonwells are not pools of radiance. Two different phenomena. The first is a pool of water that has been blessed by a goddess and is highly magical. The second is a pool of pure magic. Think of it as the Weave distilled. The "water" of a pool of radiance is a manifestation of magic, not actual water. I like to compare it to the water in TRON. :P |
| Lord Karsus |
Posted - 22 Jan 2018 : 22:06:43
-I may or may not recall something similar happening in the Moonshaes, with the Moonwells. |
| Markustay |
Posted - 22 Jan 2018 : 08:42:05
I think being completely submerged in just about any magic 'potion' (liquid) would put your body in a state of suspended animation, in regards to aging. In FR, Magic = Life. so you would be literally sitting in a vat of 'life'. And I think all the Moonwells count as those "Pools of..." from those novels, and I am sure there are others of that nature around the Realms. It almost seems to be some form of liquid medium that allows planer transferal of energies to be much easier (almost like a 'lubricant' in the great machinery of the universe). Kind of like a direct uplink to a power source (and they can be 'keyed' to different sources of Power, unlike 'nodes' which are preset). I recall from the movie Constantine he had to be 'in water' in some way to 'slip into hell', so it was basically the same type of mechanic - it acted as a lubricant to make the passage between planes easier. Call it 'Nether-Ease' LOL. If I were to assign a game mechanic to that stuff I'd say it gave you a 2-level boost for ANY sort of interplaner communication, travel, or channeling (which includes divine magic), for non-keyed, four level for specific-keyed (like trying to draw spells directly from particular god the the Moonwell is keyed to). And I also think all of those are hold-overs from back when Faerûun was somehow 'central' to the first World (if you think of the First World as a vast construction site, then those would be like generators you could go to for power). Thus, I think immersion in one of those will do you some good (if not extend your life or make you younger, than at least cure all your wounds).
When I used to have my complete notes, I had at least three different locations on Toril with 'fountain-of-youth' type springs/fountains. I know at least one of those was in the K-T box, but that's as much as I recall. I think they acted more like the Youth Potions than the longevity ones (not sure, they may have all been slightly different).
Also, Ascetic Monks are basically immortal. They can be killed, but barring murder or accidents they'll never die. There's a group over in the northern Yehimals that's been there since Imaskar (not just the group, the SAME GUYS). You'd think you'd get kinda bored floating in a lotus position for a few thousand years.  |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 22:46:15
The third Harpers Series novel Red Magic describes Maligor consuming a potion of longevity - something he does a few times each decade. In his version the potion actually reverses age, he quickly grows a few years younger, he also grows a few years worth of hair (and stands before a mirror, admiring his transformation and magnificent mane of hair for a while before shaving it off in proper zulkir fashion). He probably made the potions himself, and he wouldn't be above sacrificing elven slaves if needed to do so, but he was a zulkir so who knows how he might have obtained potions he couldn't personally manufacture.
Maligor's version actually resembles the AD&D elixir of youth (which actually makes you a few years younger) more than the AD&D potion of longevity (which only extends your "maximum" age, though it's more potent). A downside with longevity magics was that each time you got another dose you rolled the dice, there was a cumulative risk (1% chance per potion) that it would have no effect other than "instantly" reversing all previous longevity magics. I imagine long-term users could quickly age to something many decades or centuries beyond their normal "maximum" limit and die a rather horrible death (probably over 1d4+1 turns, the typical duration of potions). In AD&D it seemed stylish for those who lived (or unlived) for too many centuries or millennia to instantly decay into dessicated mummified remains or even windblown dust upon actually being killed, but maybe that was just a passing 80s/90s fad.
You'd think that such potions wouldn't take longer to manufacture than the amount of time by which they extend your life. Can't have an alchemist spend two years gaining one in return. Unless you want to make these potions exceedingly rare and valuable items. Give that alchemist ten years of livelihood as payment. The only other way to limit their availability is to require exotic components or conditions or chance of failure in their manufacture. And remember that alchemists are somewhat common but longevity potions are not, so they must require real mastery of alchemy and not be the stuff of mere dabblers.
"Elven blood" is probably symbolic. Just like a vampire doesn't actually require all of a human's blood to draw sustenance, only a small portion as a "psychic" link. So probably no real need to bleed the whole elf dry, although perhaps different alchemists and different potion recipes/formulae have different requirements, maybe one alchemist needs only four drops of elf blood gathered in moonlight during seasonal solstices and equinoxes while another alchemist needs to boil down the essence of ten sacrificed elven children into a concentrated vial. Maybe the years are "taken"/"given" from the elf's lifespan and sealed away as time in a bottle (and maybe the "conversion" process is far less efficient than a 1-to-1 ratio), so elves would generally be reluctant participants. Maybe dragon's blood, or that of some other extremely long-lived species, would do just as well. Perhaps the blood of a deity or power or celestial or fiend or similarly "ageless" being would be involved, even if only metaphorically. (It seems to me that Mystra and perhaps Amaunator/Lathander tacitly controls time travel, while Jergal/Myrkul/Cyric/Kelemvor tacitly controls life-and-death, so "cheating death" or "extending the cycle" might involve some price which must be paid, at least by the alchemist, to one of these deities.)
The philosopher stone was a strange, vague, catch-all item in AD&D. Gygax seems to have included it because it was a legendary holy grail sort of thing for alchemists, said to be a thing or a substance which could grant (among many other implausible things) true immortality and eternal youth. In actual gameplay it has no real use aside from being involved with a certain spell and being a possible component in certain alchemical preparations which mostly concern longevity or youth. Interestingly, it could be ground down into a fine powder then mixed into a potion of longevity, allowing a 1-in-20 chance of transmuting a potion of resurrection. (After which, presumably, getting a dead person to drink it would be a trivial feat.)
2E's FR13: Anauroch describes Bedine "sorcerers" or "witches" who have a rare substance (and spell) called lifewater which, it is said in the tone of legends, can heal and increase longevity and perhaps even restore life. No doubt those clever witches of Rashemen have their own version. It seems unlikely that elves would possess any longevity magics, partly because they don't really need it, partly because it's counter to their philosophies, and partly because if they did then they wouldn't ever resort to making Baelnorns - although some mythal effects and kiira crystals could prolong life indefinitely. Ancient Netheril of course had several methods of increasing an arcanist's lifespan, and perhaps some of these could be rediscovered and made to work again. Tyranthraxus could survive (and be imprisoned) within magical liquids, I'm a little curious what immersion into such a potion might do for him.
Some dusty old scrolls:
Artefacts and Items that let you live forever ...
Roads to Immortality for non casters
Magical paintings |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 22:00:47
I prefer that all potion creation be primarily about alchemy and herbalism. Mix the proper things together to have an effect. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 21:36:11
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I will always go back to Volo's Guide to All Things Magical as the source for info on magical item creation.
It only mentions potions of longevity once (and philosopher's stone twice).
Yes, but I was speaking in general terms. Instead of all magical item creation being boiled down to just the right sequence of spells, I prefer the Volo's method where you had to use related substances and such. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 20:49:41
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
Sorry for the threadomancy, but I note that the 1E DMG had elf blood as an ingredient for a potion of longevity.
AD&D2 version requires powder from a Philosopher's Stone. Which can be made with a 7-level spell an d some fancy components. But there were no details.
So who knows - there probably are many variant recipes.
quote:
Originally posted by Purple Dragon Knight
Another, cooler way to gain longevity is through the Ruathar prestige class, in Races of the Wild. Any class/race can take it. Essentially, it's a step above the "Elf-Friend" designation: when someone does something great for the elf race, above and beyond what usually grants you the tile of "Elf-Friend", the elves perform a magical ritual on you that increases your longevity by 50%.
Or (looks up) Dark Scholar from The Shattered Gates of Slaughtergarde.
Or Green Star Adept from Complete Arcane. Or "12 yr old gamer girl" template from Portable Hole OMG UNICORNS class from Book of Exalted Deeds.
Or most PrC that end with transformation into an extraplanar or fey creature and "don't need to worry about charm person any more".
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I will always go back to Volo's Guide to All Things Magical as the source for info on magical item creation.
It only mentions potions of longevity once (and philosopher's stone twice). |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 19:28:10
Just to note, Dungeon mag #10 also has pigments of longevity that you use to make a portrait of longevity. This is from 1st edition lore. It gives a random affect to you, but may make you immortal or give you five times your normal lifespan (60% of the time it either doubles, triples, or quadruples your lifespan) . Of course, 20% of the time it kills you and 15% of the time it does nothing. It also requires not one but two wish castings. Why do I bring this up? Because its kind of realms canon. Why, because the process is documented in a book called the Astral Tome of Ildranadum , and that book is owned by an evil wizard in that dungeon module. Who is he you ask? His name is Azurax Silverhawk. Who is that? Well, he's mentioned in Old Empires (and he's higher level than in the module, so presumably he survived).
The Hills of Maerth
Between Akanamere and the Adder River are the Hills of Maerth. These low but rugged hills are known for their rare minerals; a large number of ancient mines dot the surface of the hills. Recently large tracts of the hills of Maerth were purchased by the wellknown plane-wandering archmage Azurax Silverhawk (23rd-level mage), who is seeking a philosopher#146;s stone.
It should also be noted that making pigments of longevity draws out the life force from the land itself (wonder why Azurax was buying up large tracts of land).
Anyway, I'm stealing this lore for use with "Samathar" of the "League of Samathar".
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| Gary Dallison |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 15:49:45
Im guessing there are multiple ways of making the same item.
Sources state that longevity magic today is not as good as it was. Perhaps the Shoon used elf blood and that practice has caught on and is still practiced today and its why the potions have a catastrophic failure chance.
A nation like netheril likely had a better recipe for longevity magics but only a few archwizards knew the secret formula (contrary to popular opinion they were not a united group and did not share secrets) and it was lost with netherils fall |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 15:38:46
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Might have been a House rule for components, I clearly can not find any official referrence that an elf needs to be sacificed for such a potion.
Sorry for the threadomancy, but I note that the 1E DMG had elf blood as an ingredient for a potion of longevity.
Noting this old 1E trope, do people think there is any room in 5E for detail of this kind?
And yes, I am looking at longevity potions for a reason.
-- George Krashos
I will always go back to Volo's Guide to All Things Magical as the source for info on magical item creation.
I've also suggested that you could do both... Keep whatever the current ruleset is for making magic items, and those rules produce the items in question, exactly as described in the books. But go with the Volo's methods, and you wind up with more powerful versions of those same items. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 14:57:07
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Might have been a House rule for components, I clearly can not find any official referrence that an elf needs to be sacificed for such a potion.
Sorry for the threadomancy, but I note that the 1E DMG had elf blood as an ingredient for a potion of longevity.
Noting this old 1E trope, do people think there is any room in 5E for detail of this kind?
And yes, I am looking at longevity potions for a reason.
-- George Krashos
I very much enjoy that kind of detail. Honestly, it makes things less kidified, and the vast majority of us are probably above our 30's now (I'm late 40's now). |
| Markustay |
Posted - 21 Jan 2018 : 09:05:26
I think something like that could explain their new rarity - perhaps the elves caught-on, and destroyed whoever still had copies of the formula (something that would have occurred at the same time as the ToT, if we wanted to meta-game it).
I think people still enjoy that level of detail, George.
I, personally, was thinking about other ways to extend ones life (I guess we are all trying to figure-out how to save beloved NPCs). I considered an 'every other day' type of stasis. Sort of how the Sarrukh liches still do their thing. Although that would be a one-off solution for someone (or maybe a group - one person 'stays awake' for a week, then awakens the next, etc. You can save a whole organization that way).
Although, wouldn't simple resurrection be the easiest route? Maybe the most problematic, story-wise, but certainly the simplest in D&D mechanics. "Hey look! King-whats-his-face was frozen in this block of ice! Get a priest and lets bring him back!" Technically, you could even use undead. Surprised no-one has done that yet in FR. Find some moldy old zombie in a tomb, and bring him back to life, and he could be a 25K+ year old elven prince... from Aryvandaar! {duh Duh DUH!} |
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