| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 15:42:31
Its been a while since I did one of these. I generally like to look at characters that have developed over time and don't get a lot of talk time due to current buzz, i.e. that are not likely to have gotten a lot of threads lately. I would have shyied away from a god, but we saw Cyric develop a lot over time, so I think he still fits with my overall idea of disecting a character and how they have developed over time, as well as what direction the character might take.
I always felt that Cyric changed drastically from Shadowdale to Tantras, perhaps too drastically for me to be comfortable with the change. Initially Cyric seemed like a cynical character that still, deep down, had some good traits. In fact, the way he hated or mistrusted traditionally good institutions and people, but still worried about the beggers in Arabel, reminded me of Raistlin from the DragonLance books.
This made sense, becuase if you read his background in the Hall of Heroes supplement, Cyric has a strange, conflicted past, and while he was trying to be a hero, he was also haunted by what he found out about his past, almost feeling that he couldn't really ever be a "good" person. In a way, he was almost a prototypical Cale character. Unfortunately, the backgroud in the Hall of Heroes was only breifly touched upon, and by the second book, Cyric wasn't a dark hero that warred with what was good for him and what was right, he was just full bore out for Cyric. Any brief appeal he had as a tortured hero was gone.
By the time that Cyric killed Kelemvor, I really hated him, and resented that he was replacing one of my favorite evil dieites, Bane. But the character wasn't done developing.
Prince of Lies is one of my favorite Realms books, I will admit up front. I love the idea of Cyric going insane, and loosing some of his "too many at one time, especially for a mortal newly ascended to godhood" portfolios. I felt that he was neither the backstabbing petty assasin from the second and third novel, nor the NE Bane/Myrkul/Bhaal mish mash that he became as the patron deity of all sorts of evil. He was a mad god of lies and insanity, and he came into his own.
I wasn't particularly thrilled with Crucible, except that it did keep Cyric as his own person, slightly insane, Chaotic, and whimsical. I am glad that he lost death and tyranny as portfolios, since it frees him from some unwanted order and responsibilities.
Cyric, for me, seems to have gone from the be all, end all of evil gods, to being a more Loki like figure, a trickster and a lurker at the fringes, trying to cause trouble and chaos whenever he gets involved.
That having been said, I think, for future development, that Cyric needs to loose the murder portfolio. Does this mean Cyric and his followers won't still resort to killing? No, not at all, but I think the idea of paid assasins fits much more with Mask's portfolio, especially given his more agressive moves of late. I think without murder, Cyric becomes a god of lies, madness, and chaos, which is very much what he is now at any rate.
This will likely result in Cyric becoming even less powerful, but in the end, I don't think Cyric is really suited to being a greater god. I would likely drop him down a few ranks (for what its worth).
Any other thoughts on Cyric's past, his development, or his future path? |
| 26 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Dec 2005 : 08:00:01
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know if Shar would help someone else ascend, though... I think it more likely that if the never-ascended Cyric somehow helped her off another deity, Cyric would definitely get a serious bonus, like being made a Chosen. But Shar would seize that other deity's power and portfolio for herself. She's not the sharing kind.
Hmmm...
I don't think we can entirely overlook the advantages that Shar might somehow gain from an ascended Cyric though -- especially if his ascension is the direct result of her divine intervention. He'd owe her, considerably. Granted, it is extremely unlikely that Shar would ever share her power, or that of any deity she might eradicate with Cyric's help, but even Shar cannot ignore the potential benefits that come from a possible and heavily subservient demipower in the form of Cyric. His hatred of Midnight/Mystra would likely serve her more effectively if he can draw on greater divine powers than those usually available to a Divine Champion.
In time however, Cyric would likely find someway to subvert her authority, but it would be at the risk of his own divine self.
Oh, he'd certainly make a good ally for her, and could be quite useful. But I just don't see this hypothetical Cyric gaining divinty with Shar's assistance, not when she could grab the power for herself. If she was working behind the scenes, maneuvering entities around to give Cyric a shot at a deity she couldn't take, that would be more likely.
Both of these options would produce a significant and positive result for Shar -- either Mystra and Selune (and their associated clergies) are drawn into conflict with an divine-imbued Cyric giving Shar the opportunities she needs to strike at them behind the scenes and thus greatly increasing her influence in the Realms (unchecked by Mystra and Selune). Or she removes a potential divine threat somewhere along the way by using (or perhaps acting through) Cyric -- secretly supporting him -- and then casting him aside once the threat is elminated.
In the end, Shar wins...
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Dec 2005 : 06:39:08
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know if Shar would help someone else ascend, though... I think it more likely that if the never-ascended Cyric somehow helped her off another deity, Cyric would definitely get a serious bonus, like being made a Chosen. But Shar would seize that other deity's power and portfolio for herself. She's not the sharing kind.
Hmmm...
I don't think we can entirely overlook the advantages that Shar might somehow gain from an ascended Cyric though -- especially if his ascension is the direct result of her divine intervention. He'd owe her, considerably. Granted, it is extremely unlikely that Shar would ever share her power, or that of any deity she might eradicate with Cyric's help, but even Shar cannot ignore the potential benefits that come from a possible and heavily subservient demipower in the form of Cyric. His hatred of Midnight/Mystra would likely serve her more effectively if he can draw on greater divine powers than those usually available to a Divine Champion.
In time however, Cyric would likely find someway to subvert her authority, but it would be at the risk of his own divine self.
Oh, he'd certainly make a good ally for her, and could be quite useful. But I just don't see this hypothetical Cyric gaining divinty with Shar's assistance, not when she could grab the power for herself. If she was working behind the scenes, maneuvering entities around to give Cyric a shot at a deity she couldn't take, that would be more likely. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 01 Dec 2005 : 05:28:38
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I don't know if Shar would help someone else ascend, though... I think it more likely that if the never-ascended Cyric somehow helped her off another deity, Cyric would definitely get a serious bonus, like being made a Chosen. But Shar would seize that other deity's power and portfolio for herself. She's not the sharing kind.
Hmmm...
I don't think we can entirely overlook the advantages that Shar might somehow gain from an ascended Cyric though -- especially if his ascension is the direct result of her divine intervention. He'd owe her, considerably. Granted, it is extremely unlikely that Shar would ever share her power, or that of any deity she might eradicate with Cyric's help, but even Shar cannot ignore the potential benefits that come from a possible and heavily subservient demipower in the form of Cyric. His hatred of Midnight/Mystra would likely serve her more effectively if he can draw on greater divine powers than those usually available to a Divine Champion.
In time however, Cyric would likely find someway to subvert her authority, but it would be at the risk of his own divine self.
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 01 Dec 2005 : 03:16:17
Yeah, I guess the main thrust I was thinking about was just the idea that he would have longer to have adjusted to divine status. Midnight seemed to at least have some of Mystra's memories and such, and Azuth and her Chosen to aid her, but in a way its no wonder Cyric went insane, going from zero to Greater God in no time flat (though I still think he went from semi-anti hero to full on villain too quickly in the Avatar Trilogy proper). |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 01 Dec 2005 : 02:22:11
I don't know if Shar would help someone else ascend, though... I think it more likely that if the never-ascended Cyric somehow helped her off another deity, Cyric would definitely get a serious bonus, like being made a Chosen. But Shar would seize that other deity's power and portfolio for herself. She's not the sharing kind. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 01 Dec 2005 : 01:52:27
Speaking of what ifs? What would happen if Cyric had become a servant of Shar, lets say. He didn't get a ton of power too quickly, but was rewarded for his treachery and growing sense of evil. Now, years later, Cyric aids Shar with the disposition of another god, and somehow ascends to the deposed god's portfolio.
If Cyric had become divine more slowly, with more discipline, and started out at a lower divine rank and worked his way up, would he have eventually become more dangerous than he was getting a ton of power all at once? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 30 Nov 2005 : 23:47:43
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
He'd've probably laid low for a while, before turning to one of her enemies. I can readily see a never-ascended Cyric becoming some sort of champion of Shar. Maybe a cleric, maybe a Chosen, but definitely someone who had some clout and power.
Indeed. I think it would take some time though...
Maybe Shar would only realise Cyric after his vengeful personality and extremely negative moral type (that we've roughly outlined above) both become more ingrained and more concentrated toward doing evil. Shar would seize upon Cyric's loathing and sense of loss, perhaps exaggerating both aspects of his being in order to push him even further, until finally he is completely under her power.
And to keep with the SW analogies -- not unlike how Sidious influenced Anakin's descent toward the Dark Side until finally he had completely embraced it.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 30 Nov 2005 : 17:15:38
He'd've probably laid low for a while, before turning to one of her enemies. I can readily see a never-ascended Cyric becoming some sort of champion of Shar. Maybe a cleric, maybe a Chosen, but definitely someone who had some clout and power. |
| Lady Kazandra |
Posted - 30 Nov 2005 : 13:19:13
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
It's fun to discuss the what ifs and the things that aren't always hard facts.
A "What If" scenario about Cyric?
Okay, what if Cyric had not ascended and become a god at the end of the ToT? How would Cyric have handled the ascending of his enemy Midnight? Could he have still created problems for the new Lady of Mysteries if he were still mortal?
Questions to ponder . . . .
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 30 Nov 2005 : 03:27:04
Thanks Web . . . but you can't have a good discussion without other people chiming in, and I like to get other peoples opinions on matters. It's fun to discuss the what ifs and the things that aren't always hard facts. |
| webmanus |
Posted - 29 Nov 2005 : 21:07:35
This is great reading KnightErrantJR! I really liked this Character Study of yours. I have no own ideas, but, I really like yours!
/Webmanus |
| The Sage |
Posted - 28 Nov 2005 : 01:12:25
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Cyric would be far more interesting if his fall had been misguided attempts at doing good, instead of taking the easy way out.
That's why I mentioned the extended NPC role earlier.
If we could have learned more about his mortal activities, and perhaps his traumatic and early years in Zhentil Keep, we could have appreciated his history and how it finally led to the point of his ascension.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Nov 2005 : 16:46:08
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It would have been better if he, when taking the mantles of the Dead Three, had done so with a spark of good still remaining, and even better than that if he took those portfolios with the thought of reforming them -- but then succumbed to evil, simply because of the darkness of his new duties.
"There is still good in him, I can feel it."
Sorry, I couldn't resist  . This discussion just reminds me of another particular example of a certain character having to deal with the darkness within, hoping to do good by serving this darkness, and then finally relenting to the temptations that this "dark side" presents.
That was kinda who I had in mind... That particular gent is a fascinating character, and part of it was the way he fell and made his way back to the light. Cyric would be far more interesting if his fall had been misguided attempts at doing good, instead of taking the easy way out. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 27 Nov 2005 : 14:46:47
To be honest, I see Cyric as degenerating further in divine ranks long before he can change his domain around or alter his alignment. His behavior is naturally self destructive, almost to the point of setting himself up to fail.
Heh heh, in a way, he almost reminds me of Thanos in Marvel comics. Once he has power, he doesn't feel he deserves it, so he starts to subconciously do more and more grandiose things to give others the chance to take it away from him. |
| Vendrin |
Posted - 27 Nov 2005 : 08:31:49
An idea though, what with the recent removal of the Demonweb pits out of the abyss, I am believing to lean that Cyric might take part of Pandemonium to the Abyss due to his CE alignment or that he will lose his CE allignment and become pure CN, a god of pure and absolute chaos. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Nov 2005 : 07:47:18
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
It would have been better if he, when taking the mantles of the Dead Three, had done so with a spark of good still remaining, and even better than that if he took those portfolios with the thought of reforming them -- but then succumbed to evil, simply because of the darkness of his new duties.
"There is still good in him, I can feel it."
Sorry, I couldn't resist . This discussion just reminds me of another particular example of a certain character having to deal with the darkness within, hoping to do good by serving this darkness, and then finally relenting to the temptations that this "dark side" presents.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 27 Nov 2005 : 06:13:00
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I think he could have been portrayed much better as a tragic figure, if he hadn't switched sides to quickly, and Wooly you have a very good point there that you have someone here that just picked the easier path relatively quickly.
I think perhaps, that if Cyric had remained human and continued on as an NPC, I might not have grown so disgruntled with his portrayal.
If that was he case, his gradual fall and turn to evil (and thus in keeping with the "tragic figure" theme) might have been more acceptable for me. We would have experienced his growing discontent and perhaps watched as he developed into some kind of mortal antagnoist against the interests of the other gods in the Realms.
That certainly would have made him a more interesting character... If his fall to evil had taken a lot more time, and not been so spur-of-the-moment and convenient, then it would have been more intriguing.
It would have been better if he, when taking the mantles of the Dead Three, had done so with a spark of good still remaining, and even better than that if he took those portfolios with the thought of reforming them -- but then succumbed to evil, simply because of the darkness of his new duties. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 27 Nov 2005 : 04:11:21
After reading about their backgrounds in the Hall of Heroes, a lot of their background never really got touched on by the Avatar books. I almost wish we had a novel or three about the group before the Avatar Trilogy had started, so we had gotten to know them better. Then they would have really felt like major occurances when some of them died, and some became gods. As it was, we got less background in three novels than in a two page write up on an NPC book . . . since there was so much going on in the books besides the adventurers' back stories. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Nov 2005 : 03:43:32
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
I think he could have been portrayed much better as a tragic figure, if he hadn't switched sides to quickly, and Wooly you have a very good point there that you have someone here that just picked the easier path relatively quickly.
I think perhaps, that if Cyric had remained human and continued on as an NPC, I might not have grown so disgruntled with his portrayal.
If that was he case, his gradual fall and turn to evil (and thus in keeping with the "tragic figure" theme) might have been more acceptable for me. We would have experienced his growing discontent and perhaps watched as he developed into some kind of mortal antagnoist against the interests of the other gods in the Realms.
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 27 Nov 2005 : 03:14:31
Oh, I can fully understand not liking the guy and even not using him, but since I am doing my best to keep up with the "Canon" realms (with minor tweaks, such as my player's characters inadvertantly helping the Shade banish Elminster to Hell), I was just interested in chatting about what direction Cyric might go from this point, and where he has been.
I think he could have been portrayed much better as a tragic figure, if he hadn't switched sides to quickly, and Wooly you have a very good point there that you have someone here that just picked the easier path relatively quickly. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Nov 2005 : 00:30:58
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I never really liked Cyric... He's almost a tragic character, in the way he fell, except for one fact: he fell because it was easier than doing the right thing. Most tragic characters who fall do so doing what they believe is right, but Cyric was just being an opportunistic git and taking the easy path.
He gets no sympathy from me. And the megalomaniac routine is overdone.
I've never really put much stock behind Cyric myself either... and that's not only because he doesn't actually exist as a god in my FR campaign.
As I've stated elsewhere at Candlekeep, my Time of Troubles was considerably different than the version that occured in the official Realms setting. It lasted longer and its effects (and results) were also another component of the Godswar which were changed slightly.
Cyric never ascended in my campaign -- Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul still remain in my pantheon (I've outlined Myrkul positions before). My main reasoning for this was because I didn't like the way in which Cyric was originally portrayed, but also because the entire growing aspect of his insanity and the the "Mad God" focus just seemed too out of place within the Realms deity hierarchy.
I didn't run the ToT campaign in my Realms until nearly 3-4 years after the actual event in the official setting, so this gave me more than enough to time to fully realise what the ascended Cyric would be like. And in that time, I changed a great many things about the event itself so that when I finally entered it into my game, the general plot itself would lead elsewhere.
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Nov 2005 : 20:46:18
I never really liked Cyric... He's almost a tragic character, in the way he fell, except for one fact: he fell because it was easier than doing the right thing. Most tragic characters who fall do so doing what they believe is right, but Cyric was just being an opportunistic git and taking the easy path.
He gets no sympathy from me. And the megalomaniac routine is overdone. |
| Dungeon Moron |
Posted - 18 Nov 2005 : 10:34:31
During the Avatar novels, I enjoyed the character of Cyric better compared to the other three main characters.
From my own background I placed Cyric into a psychiatric personality disorder which evolved during the story into complexity. While in the Prince of Lies he lost it completely due to the Cyrinishad episode.
I too agree that the vacuum of evil that he filled was way too big for him. He got about all the power that other evil gods left and struggling with his mortal self and his divinity, gave him a hard time.
I haven't read the Erevis Cale trilogy yet, but I would sincerely prefer Mask gaining the portfolio of Murder, and I am not sure if he has regained intrigue yet. Mask and intrigue belong together though, so he should.
I like the Cyric in which he has evolved into. A slightly insane, purely chaotic, evil god with not such power as in the beginning (perhaps intermediate). |
| hooper101 |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 22:43:33
I always felt that cyric was way chaotic. I think being chaotic he did the few good deeds only because he felt some pity. I also think that once the final betrayal occured when his mentor betrayed him drove him to the point of evil. Cyric never kept anyone around long and being forced to keep certain clerics and other useless slugs around by someone he thought could be logical upset him plenty. That being said I am about to read prince of lies and crucible so I hope to be as confused as you guys are. |
| sleyvas |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 21:52:14
Loki or the trickster is EXACTLY as I see him by the final book. I've noticed that all 3 as gods have become a lot more.... prototypical? This of course could be them losing their humanity in the gain of power. I too would prefer to see him lose murder to Mask. It fits mask more. Perhaps Cyric will get involved with Beshaba and her bad luck will enable Mask to get what he deserves. What would be better, the goddess of bad luck and the god of lies and insanity getting it on.... |
| Mask |
Posted - 17 Nov 2005 : 16:12:11
I loved Prince of Lies and The Crucible. I totally dug the vendetta between Cyric and Mystra and I feel they should follow up on that topic in a new novel. I'm not really sure how, but I would definately read it. |
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