| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 21 Sep 2005 : 07:54:24
My player's and I have recently been talking about this a lot, and it came up in All Shadow's Fled as well. I am looking for necromantic spells that might summon or animate undead that are not neccissarily evil. I have some ideas on how to not make them evil (I still think indiscriminately animated corpses should be evil).
Some ideas for spells:
Animating the bodies of those who agree to the spell and participate in a ritual before their death, the spell being negated if the body is used in a dishonorable manner.
Animating the bodies of one's enemies specifically to attack other enemies, the spell being broken once the foes are defeated. This would not create permanent undead, but only temporary ones to aid in battle.
Summoning free willed undead that are neither caused by spell or curse, and binding them to do a particular deed that will release them from their undeath if the deed is carried out.
What do you think, are these still evil, and do you have any ideas of your own?
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| 7 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 19:07:38
Okay, some specifics that inspired the above examples:
The first example, getting permission while the persons are living to raise them under a certain circumstance if the bodies are treated respectfully, comes from a discussion that I had with my player of the Cleric of Helm. His conjecture is that if you are a servant of the god of guardians, an abbey or temple to Helm might raise the bodies in the catacombs to defend the structure, and that those who died and are interred therein are sworn to guard their holy site.
The second example comes from All Shadows Fled. A cleric of Tempus, while not neccissarily a good character, most likely was at least neutral, as he was a former rider in Mistledale and got on well with the current riders, and turned out to defend the dale. While he didn't raise armies of undead, he did raise some of the Zhents killed specifically to go back to the Zhentarim forces raiding the dale.
Very perceptively good gnomish sir, you picked up on the inspiration for my third instance. Aragorn releasing the King of the Dead and his servants definately inspired this idea with me. The only concern here is that it might be more of a summoning spell than a necromantic spell, but perhaps the element of releasing the undead would sufficiently bring it back to necromancy.
Just as a side note, foremost on my mind here is that in the ORIGINAL Lords of Darkness, it is mentioned that animated skelatons and zombies is evil becuase it is disturbing to the spirits of those bodies in the afterlife, as well as due to the fact that it unnaturally animates the bodies.
I can see in some circumstances doing something that is traditionally considered evil for good reasons shifting someones alignment toward neutrality, but not any further toward evil, so long as they have actually shown restraint. Example number two above is the one I think of most in this regard. It would be easy to abuse this and start moving toward evil, but if you only ever use this in extreem circumstances (in the book the dale had a few hundred defenders against a Zhent force of about 7000), I can see it darkening your soul (falling from good to neutral) but not fully corrupting you.
Finally, my player says that he actually can see his cleric becoming an Archlich to watch over his temple if he ever manages to get it built, but only if Helm would be amenable to such a conversion. That way he could continue to guard his tribute to his god. |
| Sir Luther Cromwell |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 18:01:37
quote:
Beware the giant undead killer-tomatoes(ugh I wish I had never seen that movie)
Err, it is argueable that the very idea of being undead is itself so evil that it touches most undead. Resurrecting an untimely death is one thing, but messing with those fabrics is in many ways abuse of ones power. To put this into comtemporary terms (since I have this theory that today's scientist is the equivalent to a Faerunian Wizard), it would be like cloning an individual, but geneticallly altering the clone so that it would mindlessly obey your orders, treating it like an object, and then sending that clone to go fight for you. Now, in the end, this all depends on what the GM may consider good and evil, and what his personal morals are. But I've always seen raising undead as a abuse of power. And on the arguement of "the means justifies the ends", well this is very case dependent. I'm pretty sure Kelevor wants to promote that death is something that is equal, constant, and doesn't play favorites. Allowing some people to abuse their power deters this.
On the note of whether those are evil, Knight. For the first one: a lot depends on why the person wants to be undead. If its because 'being a lich would be cool', he is essentially letting power corrupt him. He should definately become evil. But say someone wanted to gain more powers to fight evil, I'd say keep that person neutral, most likely Lawful Neutral (stuck to a certain code for this rest of his undeath).
For the Second one, still evil. They were raised with the intent on killing another, and one might even say that the mentality and the intentions of the caster would definately reflect upon the undead. However, the caster may be defending the innocent, they are still being raised just to kill another being.
For the third: summoning them to set them free is definately not evil. Raising them to set them free it, but not summoning them. One must relate to the 3rd LOTR movie, where it was more of an act of 'righting a wrong'. Undeath, in itself, is a perversion of death. Summoning an undead to do good, and then freeing that undead into death, could actually be seen as quite vitruous. |
| khorne |
Posted - 23 Sep 2005 : 07:35:15
Beware the giant undead killer-tomatoes(ugh I wish I had never seen that movie) |
| tauster |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 20:42:48
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Undead vegetables? That sounds like the spell was intended as a joke... 
of course it was intended as a joke, and initially we saw it as nothing more than funny to have an undead turnip called "ruebie" (ruebe = german for turnip) walk alongside the party. 
...but if you´re exploring the underdark for several tendays, you´ll be surprised how handy that particular joke can become!
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| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 11:23:06
Undead vegetables? That sounds like the spell was intended as a joke... |
| tauster |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 09:47:37
...another idea:
let the necromancer make an agreement/pact with kelemvor (better one of his servants (perhaps a minor death) :
- the mage agrees to battle undead (focusing his spell list on undead-harming spells)
- kelemvor / the servant agrees to support the mage in certain situations. that should be limited to special missions (destroy this or that lich/archvampire) or emergencies. the mages gets a spell that summons minor undead (mindless sceletons, zombies, etc...)to battle the bigger evils. => the end justifies the means
that way, he´s using/summoning undead AND stays "on the good side". besides, the divine aspect of the whole thing gives you lots of elbow room for adventure hooks: evil priests, recovering (and destruction or hiding) of ancient religious artifacts from kelemvors predecessors (myrkul & jergal), encounters with former myrkilite clerics who convertet to other evil gods,...  |
| tauster |
Posted - 22 Sep 2005 : 09:37:39
in one of our campaigns (2e + "players options" rules), one player has a chaotic good necromancer. he concentrates on healing skills (healing, herbalism, anatomy,...) and spells that harm/destroy undead, and he´s more or less a white necromancer, an undead hunter.
nevertheless, the player wanted to be able to create at least something undead, so he found the following spell in a netbook of necromantic spells (can´t remember the url; just try googel...). it´s not considered evil per se (though the pc doesn´t really like to cast it; after all, he creates something he normally destroys on first sight - undead), a constant source of fun, and sometimes even useful (give it a coin or pebble with a light spell and let it scout ahead).
Eldran's Animate Dead Vegetable (Necromancy)
Level 1
Range: 0
Components: V,S,M
Duration: Permanent
Casting Time: 1 round
Area of Effect: 1 dead vegetable
Saving Throw: None
This spell animates one vegetable (tomato, potato, leek, radish, pea, etc.) which immediately grows enough appendages to allow it to move around (usually a tentacle or two). The vegetable must be perfectly preserved before casting, or be freshly picked, but upon casting, the vegetable rots and appears to be slightly squishy, slimy, mouldy, and generally icky and horrible. What the necromancer does with this vegetable is up to him, the necromancer has complete control over its actions; the communication is only one way, however, the necromancer can tell the vegetable what he wants it to do, but the vegetable cannot report anything it perceives. The vegetable can move around at speed 6, can fetch very small things (of about 2oz. max. weight), and is considered to have a strength of 1 for all other purposes. What the vegetable can move/carry is obviously dependant on what it can get its tentacles around.
The uses of this spell are not particularly obviously at first sight, but one use it was rumoured that Eldran used this spell for was to get a vegetable to grow thorny tentacles and then teach it how to pick locks. Because the vegetable is usually quite light, it is also thought that Eldran used a different vegetable to pick pockets (although it could only manage, at most, one coin/gem/key/other small object at a time). Since Eldran's untimely demise, however, it has been impossible to validate these claims as the alleged vegetables were never found.
One of the most useful aspects of this spell is that it allows the necromancer to deliver touch attack necromancy spells of first, second or third level only through these things. The vegetable must, obviously, be close enough to attack the victim and must roll to hit with a THAC0 of 20, if it fumbles, the vegetable has been squashed for some reason (usually by the target) and the effects of the touch spell manifest themselves on the caster in the resulting magical backlash, as well as taking 1D4 points of damage as with the spectral hand spell. If the touch spell has a duration of more than one round (ghoul touch) and its effects take place on the caster, then the necromancer can terminate the spell in the following rounds if he so desires.
Creatures protected by Kodak's Protection From Food cannot be attacked or in any other way approached closer than 1' while under the influence of the abjuration.
The material component for this spell, besides the vegetable to be animated, are a few cumin seeds to be eaten by the necromancer as part of the casting. |
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