| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 05:53:41
Alright, going to make a few leaps of logic in this thread. See if you follow and feel free to shoot down anything you like to. This is not likely to ever have a direct effect on my game, just one of those things that pops into my head from time to time.
Factoid #1: The first time avatars are really mentioned in AD&D, in the Greyhawk Adventures hardcover, we are told that they are more or less about 1/3 as powerful as the actual god themselves.
Factoid #2: In 2nd edition we never saw the stats for the actual gods, only for their avatars, as the gods were considered too powerful to stat up (something that does indeed make sense to me, but hey, I'm having fun here).
Factoid #3: Faiths and Avatars, among other sources, gives the statistics for the avatars of the gods worshipped in the Forgotten Realms.
Now, adding together these factoids, which is likely not a wise thing to do, I came up with what I think the REAL statistics for the gods would be (oh goodness).
Using the above assumption, I made the colossal leap to the conclusion, for example, Mystra should actually be something more along the lines of a Wizard 120th/Sorceress 120th/Cleric 120th level.
I actually have no problem with this, and likewise, the Elder Elemental Evils from Champions of Ruin would be multiplied by three to actually see what they have for stats (I might come up with some cockamamee excuse that if they manifest in certain planes their powers are diminished, thus resulting in their lesser stats, who knows . . . I like them more as legends than monsters for my PCs to fight).
At any rate, this is not likely to matter, except in my mind where, if someday I ever have a PC make it to 40th level I no longer feel that they are challenging the gods with their power, since they shouldn't, even at that lofty height of power.
Shoot my idea full of holes, or praise my genius (or more likely) just give me any opinions you might have on the matter. I like a good discussion of such things. |
| 25 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| The Sage |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 03:06:46
Some of the deity details for a number of gods in F&P match what was written in F&A and P&P.
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| warlockco |
Posted - 27 Aug 2005 : 03:03:26
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
When it comes to deities, the three 2nd edition deity books -- Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities -- are the only books I'll look at. Faiths & Pantheons is only good for assigning domains. 
I have to pretty much agree with that, and maybe using the flavor text from Faiths and Pantheons to add a bit more information. |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 23:59:49
When it comes to deities, the three 2nd edition deity books -- Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, and Demihuman Deities -- are the only books I'll look at. Faiths & Pantheons is only good for assigning domains. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 22:07:59
Yeah, Helm had all those neat effects that shot out of his visor if he lifted it up. I personally think, especially when you are talking about a god as powerful as Tempus, that if his cleric's can't cast ressurection, it would be becuause of philosophical issues, not any lack of power on Tempus's part. |
| Asgetrion |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 18:49:07
I think 3.x edition screwed up things with gods badly... many of them were heavily modified (just look at Silvanus in F&P) from existing Realmslore. Many of them are now incapable of their deeds described in previous Realmslore (many of them are now unable to even take on an avatar!) For example, there is no way Moander could have caused Tyche to split up, since he had too few divine ranks 
I was also VERY disappointed with the chosen Salient Divine Abilities in F&P, since most avatars had unique abilitites related to their portfolio in Faiths&Avatars. There are only about THREE unique SDAs in the whole F&P! Why did they not consult Faiths&Avatars, and converted those SDAs from there? Because every deity has to have certain "Deities & Demigods"-SDAs to hold his portfolio... and there is only a certain amount that each god may have...
I laughed at the fact that Tempus can no longer resurrect anyone, since he doesn't have enough cleric levels, proper domains and proper Salient Divine Abilities  
My perpective on this matter is that our gaming group ignores all stats for gods in every 3.x edition tome. Deities should be almost omnipotent, and even Ed has said that we cannot know the truth about ANYTHING which concerns deities. The only guidelines I use for divine matters are Faiths&Avatars, Demihuman Deities, and Powers&Pantheons  |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 07:38:10
That's pretty much why I looked at Mystra first. The main reason that Helm comes into the mix is that as an example, I wanted to examine another god, and since two of my player's were members of Helm's church, he was a natural to check out next. As I said earlier, I really never expect my PCs to challenge a god in a manner that calls for my needing to know their stats, but this is sort of a "get things right in the big picture in my own head" kind of item to bring up. |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 06:28:03
It’s ultimately up to each Dungeon Master to decide exactly how powerful Deities are in his or her campaign.
Some DM’s will decide that the gods should be challenged by the player characters in their campaign; especially if the DM plans to run an Epic game or that’s what his players want.
OTOH some DMs will decide that it just doesn’t make sense for Divine Beings to have finite power, or that relative divine power matters only amongst the gods because even the lowliest demi-power can still wipe the floor with a 40th level PC.
But most games never have to worry about this, so it’s not all that big a deal.
Still it’s unfortunate that some of the work Sean Reynold’s did for Faiths and Pantheons (Deity Do’s and Don’ts, http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020504a) dealing with precisely this subject was relegated to a web enhancement (very bad Ivory Tower Game Design move, WotC!), because those pages explain in detail how DM’s ought to address the actual power level of divine beings in their Forgotten Realms campaigns.
From explaining how to use Deities, reminding DM’s what they are and what characteristics they have that players almost never will, giving advice on how to run Deities and unkillable beings in a campaign, etc… this web article has a lot to offer DM’s.
Knight I think what you’ve come up with sounds very reasonable. You’re keeping everything to scale (if Mystra is this level, Helm must be that level, etc..) and have Mystra at the top of the heap it sounds like, which sounds just right to me.
I would only add that as divine beings…we’ll they’re all pretty frickin powerful to begin with. So unless you plan for your players to but heads with more than one divine being, I wouldn’t worry about detailing stats for most of them even if the numbers in F&P do seem off to you.
Better to set the bar at its highest (Mystra) then apply that scale to those divine beings your players will ultimately face. Just remember not to set it too high or it won’t be fun!
As for what Azuth can or can’t do: clinging to a game rule as absolute when we (and that includes the designers in the “we”) know better is silly. It’s far more likely Azuth’s lack of an Avatar Ability is an error than an intentional design change, particularly in light of the fact that 3E was designed to have the rules better reflect the myriad of creature abilities.. And even if it was a deliberate change that doesn’t mean we’re bound by it or that all DM’s should be more concerned with what’s in the books than how they run their campaigns.
We’re Dungeon Masters, not Dungeon Lackeys, right? |
| warlockco |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 04:50:39
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Great Googaly Moogaly Warlockco! What were you feeding those characters?!? Thankfully, even when we were playing 6 out of 7 days a week during the summer and friday nights and all day saturday back in high school, we never had any characters get higher than 19th level. Then again, we rotated between me DMing Forgotten Realms and DragonLance, my friend DMing Ravenloft and Greyhawk, and throwing in some Top Secret, Marvel Super Heroes, Mechwarrior, and Star Frontiers.
We had one campaign that ran though all of Junior High, with the same characters during the entire time (or for me anyhow, I was one of the lucky ones to have never died). |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 04:45:16
Great Googaly Moogaly Warlockco! What were you feeding those characters?!? Thankfully, even when we were playing 6 out of 7 days a week during the summer and friday nights and all day saturday back in high school, we never had any characters get higher than 19th level. Then again, we rotated between me DMing Forgotten Realms and DragonLance, my friend DMing Ravenloft and Greyhawk, and throwing in some Top Secret, Marvel Super Heroes, Mechwarrior, and Star Frontiers. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 04:41:31
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Eirk, to your point, yes, the stats as given in Deities and Demigods and Faiths and Pantheons are suppose to be for the actual gods. My whole point is that in MY campaign I am trying to reconcile the fact that the avatars from Faiths and Avatars in 2nd Edition seem like if they were converted to 3rd edition they could kick the 3rd edition god's rear ends.
Given how powerful Mystra has been portrayed before, I don't think my multiplication issue bumping Mystra up to 120th level in her spellcasting classes is too much. Helm ends up being a 100th level fighter, if I remember correctly. I know, its pointless, becuase the main thing is that the characters, even if they "epic" themselves all the way up to 40th or 50th level, they couldn't touch a god.
Was digging through some old character sheets, from way back in 1E and 2E, I have some PCs that could take on the Gods at that level, not counting their divine powers of course.  
But then again, back in my school days, me and my friends played every night (even if it was for just a couple of hours), and every other chance we got.
The one that was probably the cream of the crop was a CN Drow Priestess that was Cleric 30/Fighter 30/Thief 30/Wizard 30. Next would be a LN Moon Elf Fighter 30/Thief 30/Wizard 30, followed by a NG Moon Elf Bladesinger Fighter 40/Wizard 40. There are a few others, but those are the highlights. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 00:27:15
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Not necessarily... while one could easily say it is just a discontinuity between editions, it is possible there could be a valid in-game explanation.
Is there anything that says a god cannot trade out one of his SDA's for another? It could be that Azuth had the SDA for extra avatars at one time, and then exchanged that SDA for something else of more value to him.
Or maybe he had a higher DVR at one time and lost worshippers or got busted down a rank or two and lost an SDA. Azuth is the god of Wizards, right? So maybe when wizardry recently started losing all that ground to sorcery, Azuth might have seen a commensurate drop in power. 
Or WOTC screwed up with another retcon because he was just one of the examples I was using since he's sent avatars to Faerun and according to the retcon, he never could. That's, again, what a retcon means. Sigh, here we go AGAIN! |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 26 Aug 2005 : 00:00:38
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
However, Azuth has used his avatar repeatedly in the old lore but since he's missing that SDA, he never had an avatar according to the retcon. :)
Not necessarily... while one could easily say it is just a discontinuity between editions, it is possible there could be a valid in-game explanation.
Is there anything that says a god cannot trade out one of his SDA's for another? It could be that Azuth had the SDA for extra avatars at one time, and then exchanged that SDA for something else of more value to him.
Or maybe he had a higher DVR at one time and lost worshippers or got busted down a rank or two and lost an SDA. Azuth is the god of Wizards, right? So maybe when wizardry recently started losing all that ground to sorcery, Azuth might have seen a commensurate drop in power. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 21:34:06
No Erik, I expected that my kinda way out idea is going to generate some stir one way or the other. As far as characters running into the gods, the only long term god meeting that I have planned for my players is for them, when they do get closer to epic levels ( way off right now ) having to take the Crown of Horns to Lathander to snap him out of his plans for a second Dawn Cataclysm. That most likely won't involve any fighting with Lathander at all, but I like to know where the PCs fit in the grand scheme of things.
My take on Mystra in Hell is that she was too powerful and started damaging reality with all the power she was throwing around. Also, while they are not actual gods, I also utilize the little blurb in Dieties and Demigods and the Book of Vile Darkness that the arch devils WHEN IN THEIR OWN DOMAIN are considered 0 level deities, and thus they can manipulate their domains. While they aren't powerful enough to stand toe to toe with Mystra, they can call on their ability to alter their domain to help defend themselves.
But keep the opinions coming . . . I love having things to chew over in my mind! |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 20:50:16
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Eirk, to your point, yes, the stats as given in Deities and Demigods and Faiths and Pantheons are suppose to be for the actual gods. My whole point is that in MY campaign I am trying to reconcile the fact that the avatars from Faiths and Avatars in 2nd Edition seem like if they were converted to 3rd edition they could kick the 3rd edition god's rear ends.
Given how powerful Mystra has been portrayed before, I don't think my multiplication issue bumping Mystra up to 120th level in her spellcasting classes is too much. Helm ends up being a 100th level fighter, if I remember correctly. I know, its pointless, becuase the main thing is that the characters, even if they "epic" themselves all the way up to 40th or 50th level, they couldn't touch a god.
Ah-ha. I was just confused. Thanks to you -- and to the others -- for clearing up the discussion.
Wow -- you're hard on your players. That'd be a lot of adventuring.
Me, I always play it strict according to the rules (the listing is the actual deity, the avatars are a little weaker, usually, according to the text), but avoid direct divine conflicts. First off, I'm not confident in my ability to use a god to the fullest of his/her abilities, and secondly, I think such a thing should only be the culmination of a lifetime quest -- for instance, Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul confronting Jergal, or Raistlin taking on Takhisis (if you dig DL).
The 120th level Mystra thing stirs a question in this dusty head of mine: what about archdevils and demon princes? What do these have to do with each other? Well, I got the sense that archdevils were less powerful than gods, but not by that vast a margin. For instance, Mystra can't just go down into the Nine Hells and tear it up at her leisure -- per El in Hell -- and while it seems reasonable she could wrench a compulsion from the lord of the hells, it is by no means necessary that she can do so every time she tries.
I also think it's cool to throw characters up against divine attackers, just to show them that, yeah, you can survive a couple rounds (maybe), but until you're pushing like 60-70th level, you're not going to pull off anything like victory.
Anyway, that's just my input. Hope I didn't put anybody off with my earlier comments -- I didn't mean to imply disapproval.
Cheers |
| Kuje |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 17:26:37
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I was under the impression that 3e (so it doesn't necessarily hold for 1e & 2e) Faiths and Pantheons and Deities and Demigods gives the stats for the actual GOD, then below it gives stats for an avatar ("as XXX deity, but. . ."). Don't have my books with me at the moment, but that's what I had thought.
Cheers
Yes, the stats in F&P are for the deity and if they have the avatar divine ability then they also have stats for thier avatar. However, Azuth has used his avatar repeatedly in the old lore but since he's missing that SDA, he never had an avatar according to the retcon. :) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 16:52:01
Eirk, to your point, yes, the stats as given in Deities and Demigods and Faiths and Pantheons are suppose to be for the actual gods. My whole point is that in MY campaign I am trying to reconcile the fact that the avatars from Faiths and Avatars in 2nd Edition seem like if they were converted to 3rd edition they could kick the 3rd edition god's rear ends.
Given how powerful Mystra has been portrayed before, I don't think my multiplication issue bumping Mystra up to 120th level in her spellcasting classes is too much. Helm ends up being a 100th level fighter, if I remember correctly. I know, its pointless, becuase the main thing is that the characters, even if they "epic" themselves all the way up to 40th or 50th level, they couldn't touch a god. |
| Sir Luther Cromwell |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 16:41:56
ah, now there nothing wrong with the rules presented, but when it comes to the power of a god, usually I make it directly proportional to the number of souls who believer in said god (with individuals who worship the god granting it even more power). One might say that for every individual that believe in said god, the god recieves abilities/character levels/experience/super natural abilitie/etc. Thus, the way you kill a god is by diminishing its population of believers in some way.
Now, to do this, one could simply take Cyric's approach and going on massing killings of believers of other faiths. However, oppressed believers are often much more pious than regular believers, and so simply killing off believers doesn't necessarily always work if you want to diminish a god. Diminishing a god takes time, effort, skill, and a lot of propoganda.
The painful part being, how do you log how many believers there are of any one god in the realms. This method is essentially pointless when trying to get numerical statistics on a god, but it's a neat method for 'god-killing' campaigns. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 16:31:50
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I was under the impression that 3e (so it doesn't necessarily hold for 1e & 2e) Faiths and Pantheons and Deities and Demigods gives the stats for the actual GOD, then below it gives stats for an avatar ("as XXX deity, but. . ."). Don't have my books with me at the moment, but that's what I had thought.
Cheers
Yes, and the Stats for the God in the books is what I use for the Primary Avatar, with the stats for an Avatar if they have one is the stats for the Lesser Avatars. |
| Erik Scott de Bie |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 15:59:47
I was under the impression that 3e (so it doesn't necessarily hold for 1e & 2e) Faiths and Pantheons and Deities and Demigods gives the stats for the actual GOD, then below it gives stats for an avatar ("as XXX deity, but. . ."). Don't have my books with me at the moment, but that's what I had thought.
Cheers |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 08:37:33
Interesting. I like the idea that they always have one primary avatar that is the big gun compared to the others. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 08:35:09
The way I do Gods and their Avatars is as Follows:
1) The Stats given for a God is the Stats for their Primary Avatar (the one they have one of at a time).
2) The Stats given for Avatars is the Stats for their Lesser Avatars (the ones they can have multiples of).
3) Thus every God is given one Primary Avatar (per Crystal Sphere) to play around with, if they want more, they can invest some divine energy to do so (but these will be weaker).
4) With a few exceptions the only way to defeat/kill a God is on their Home Plane, and you need another of God of at least the same power level (not touching Divine Rank since that seems to have been discarded with the new diety stats).
5) If the opposing Gods are weaker then they need to have 3 to one odds, with the numbers going up exponentially for a group of weaker Gods trying to take on a bigger one. (i.e. 3 Intermediate vs 1 Greater, 9 Lesser vs 1 Greater, 81 Demi vs 1 Greater)
And at best the weaker Gods can only bar the defeated God from one Crystal Sphere (for 100/50/25 years) that they all have to agree on. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 06:38:29
I always thought that it was rather unfortunate timing that Deities and Demigods came out just a bit ahead of the Epic Level Handbook, so rather than statting the gods up impressively, they come across as looking like something that a good sized party of epic characters could "take."
And while I really just want to yap about how you, my fellow sages, would alter the "stats" of the gods in the current 3.5 environment, and what you think of my ideas, does anyone else think that the list of salient divine abilites swings abruptly from "wow, thats really cool" to "you could do the same thing with a couple feats."
Of course if the gods are the same level as I am moving them up to, they have no need to waste a SDA on epic level spellcasting, since they should have plenty of feats to utilize. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 06:29:54
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Yeah, not a big fan of the fact that a god has to "buy" avatars with a god feat . . . er salient divine ability, nor that they have to buy their domains that they grant their clerics. I would think that the whole domains thing is more or less how the cleric perceives their deity and is trained in their worship. So if I ever do more than just roughly determining higher level abilities for the gods, I would not likely take up their SDAs with silly things like extra domains.
They didn't have to do that in Faiths & Avatars, etc. All deities had avatars in 1e and 2e. :) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 06:13:37
Yeah, not a big fan of the fact that a god has to "buy" avatars with a god feat . . . er salient divine ability, nor that they have to buy their domains that they grant their clerics. I would think that the whole domains thing is more or less how the cleric perceives their deity and is trained in their worship. So if I ever do more than just roughly determining higher level abilities for the gods, I would not likely take up their SDAs with silly things like extra domains. |
| Dargoth |
Posted - 25 Aug 2005 : 06:06:30
Faithes and Avatars also tells you how many Avatars a god has in relation to its power rating |
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