| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 09 Aug 2005 : 17:47:53
I was just wondering, what with the old referenses to the Great Wheel and the new cosmology of the Realms, if it would be more beneficial to assume that the "Great Tree" always existed, or if there could be a more "Crisis on Infinate Earths" explanation to how the cosmology was sundered and realigned.
I guess what I am asking is not so much if you like the Great Wheel or have adopted it, but if you have any ideas about if there may have been some kind of massive cosmological realignment, and after that realignment no one remembers the "old ways" things were. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 05:21:08
First off, thanks for the compliment. I have a great group of players, some of whom have never played in the Realms before and now love it, and some of whom have played there many times and are really good for keeping me "honest" and doing my reasearch in order to keep my Realmslore straight while still being creative.
Let me put it this way. If any of my ideas did come from that, it was subliminal. I get Dungeon Magazine on subscription, and while I don't use many adventures out of it, it does give me a lot of ideas on how to stage encounters, plot twists, etc. So its possible that I read something that sparked me, though I couldn't tell you specifically what it might have been. |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 21 Aug 2005 : 04:16:34
Knight, this is solid, especially the stuff on Myrkul (it keeps the past in the present, you know?).
BTW, are you using any adventures from Dungeon Magazine as the basis for the plot with the Elven Chronomancer? I can't seem to recall the exact issue, but I swear there's been an adventure in Dungeon recently that is pretty close to what you're doing, right down to an elven mage feeding the party an item and one or more gods working for or against the end of creation. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 23:49:46
The villains describes in this link figure into it, and none of this will be a major plot thread until the PCs get much closer to "epic" levels:
http://www.candlekeep.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4161
The elven chronomancer that they have already run into, the one that tried to give them an artifact to plan in Myth Drannor to strenghten the Mythal, thus saving Myth Drannor (but eventually causing the demise of the Dales, Cormyr, and Sembia in the long term) has learned that reality has been rewritten in her studies, which greatly interests her. Unfortunately she has also found out that Lathander is working on trying to do it again, and she knows that he is going to make the same mistake again.
Myrkul, who read about the "reboot" when he had the Tablets of Fate, knows what is going on and what Lathander's mistake is, and even the shard of his essese in the Crown of Horns can point this mistake out to Lathander. Thus, the elven chronomancer is going to set the PCs, as carefully as she can, to find the crown of horns and bring it into Lathander's presense.
Of course, even if they succeed, she is going to be arrogant enough to think that she can use Lathander's manipulations to fix JUST ONE THING and save Myth Drannor.
She is going to find out about the entire thing by her poking and prodding in differnt times when she finds fragments of various texts that refer to things that she knows didn't happen, then puts two and two together, especially when conferring with other Masters of the Forbidden Conclave. |
| Sanishiver |
Posted - 20 Aug 2005 : 21:16:35
KnightErrantJR, I **really** like your ideas for a custom Cosmological back story for your Realms campaign.
The part about Tyche's fate is just sweet, because it fits so well and it makes sense.
I'm curious to know if you intend to include this backstory in your actual campaign in some way?
I ask because Faith's and Pantheons (under the Lathander entry, page 38) mentions the coming time of 'Deliverance' that has been revealed by Lathander to his most trusted Dawnbringers.
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 11:11:51
I completely forgot about the whole Metatext thing . . . its entirely possible that, in my scenario, after Murdane went mad and Tyche split, Deneir was the next god that the increasingly obsessed Lathander turned to . . . |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 06:15:26
I like your ideas. The Dawn Cataclysm is mysterious enough that it could be the basis for such a crisis.
Someone in another thread over on the WOTC forums gave me another idea. If you read the Deneir entry in Faiths & Pantheons, it says that Deneir is consumed with discovering the Metatext. This is supposedly a work in the realm of the ideal which if read will unlock the secrets of the Multiverse, and of which bits of this ideal text are reflected in every written text, in combinations of letters, words and the odd sentence here and there.
Such an idea is reminiscent of Plato's Parable of the Cave, and reminds me also of the works of Jorge Luis Borges (especially the stories Tlon, Uqbar, Orbis Tertius, and The Library of Babel) and also Asimov's short story The Nine Billion Names of God.
Anyway, suppose Deneir actually discovered his Metatext, and Lathander used Deneir somehow to rewrite the universe (kind of like in Ursula K. Leguin's The Lathe of Heaven) in such a way that good was meant to be triumphant over evil, ushering a new Golden Age in Faerūn. However, the scheme went horribly awry as you suggested Knight Errant, ripping the fabric of reality (or causing a Blue Screen of Death to use a programming metaphor) and Ao had to step in and remake or reboot creation.
This is basically what you are suggesting KnightErrantJr, except that all I am proposing is that Deneir's Metatext might possibly the tool Lathander used to wreak his Cataclysm.
I just picked up Tymora's Luck, which I am told might have a few little details about the Dawn Cataclysm. I am reading through it to find anything that might shed some light on this mysterious event. I will let you know if I find anything noteworthy within.  |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 02:23:49
Oh, before I forget, why is it a cataclysm, even if one god died, one split in half, etc. The original damage from Lathander trying to rewrite certain events from the begining was considerable, and Ao had to do a partial reboot and rewrite some files from his godly backup files, so to speak. Everyone knows the event was big, they just don't seem to know why, and Lathander unfortunately doesn't realize the damage that he did. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 02:20:30
Thanks Sage,
I am hoping the some of my fellow scribes will take a look at my ideas and let me know what they think, etc. I started tying the Dawn Cataclysm to my Realms Crisis idea becuase the Dawn Cataclysm is said to have happened "outside of time" and in this manner, perhaps this is why even the gods may have a hard time explaining when and what exactly happened.
I also hoped to make Lathander look less, er, zealous with this. Looking into a rift that shows you that reality has been rewritten might do some funny things to you, so Lathander thinks that he must "fix" the rift, and while he is at it, hey, why not make the Realms a better place.
The "wounds" of reality that still exist are actually healing over time, but were far too delicate for Ao to fully patch (Ao is powerful, but patching the small holes is like trying to take a needle and thread to a microscopic hole).
At any rate, what do you all think, and how would you do it, if you would? |
| The Sage |
Posted - 15 Aug 2005 : 02:13:26
I've now had time to consult with Big Al on the future of this scroll and he believes, along with both myself and Wooly, that its content is viable enough to keep it open -- for the time being. However any further breaches will see the scroll locked permanently. I'm sure my fellow moderators would agree.
And please, try to keep your planar responses strictly on the topics originally discussed by KnightErrantJR.
Thank you .
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| The Sage |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 06:21:03
I'm temporarily locking this scroll, at least until I've had a chance to discuss it's continued validity with Alaundo.
KnightErrantJR, if you have any further points you wish to discuss about this topic, I would suggest you open a new scroll and try to keep your queries as specific as possible so as not to invite further "planar" speculations.
Once Big Al has decided on the original thread, we'll let you know about it's future. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 03:52:30
Now I may be able to sleep . . . without dreaming about splintering realities, Lovecraftian horrors, good gods nearly destroying reality, and the like . . .
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 03:50:37
Finishing up . . .
Lathander found the "freyed edges" of reality that had been woven back together by Ao. Thinking that such an anomoly might be dangerous, Lathander was obsessed with finding out about it. Eventually he recruited Murdane and her powers of reason and itellect to help him analyse the reality sinkhole that he had found.
Murdane finally traced the freyed edges back to their source, and the enormity of reality being rewritten drove her mad, and she tried in vain to close the gap, consuming herself with her own power.
Lathander now felt guilty yet still facinated and certain that the rift was dangerous, and furthermore, saw that he could travel back to the begining of time to "fix" everything while closing the fissure. He was also convinced that the forces that consumed Murdane were due to variables in the timestream, and so he recruited Tyche with her powers of probability control to help lessen the danger.
Tyche was ripped asunder by the probabilities that she tried to control, and Lathander became even more obsessed with fixing the timestream, and with rewritting every wrong that had happened. Upon entering the timestream, Lathander was confronted by Ao, who took away any knowlage that Lathander had of the events other than that a major event had happened, and that he had failed to acheive what he had tried to do. Ao was forced to undo some of the changes that Lathander had made so that they did not upset the balance.
Lathander has recently found another such rift in reality, and is slowly remembering that he could use the rift to return to the begining of time and "guide" history in the right direction. Ironically, the only way for Lathander to realize his folly before he causes dangerous repercussions is for Lathander to come into contact with the essece of his former nemesis, Myrkul, in the Crown of Horns. Myrkul had learned more about the reversal and rebuilding of time, and learned that the universe can never be fully good nor evil due to the incomplete nature of the splintered overgods.
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| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 01:04:20
Some more thoughts that I had at work (yes, I think about this at work . . . and I have to get all of this down before I near the wedding since I will definately be incomunicado during the honeymoon!).
First off, the original Prime, home of the Lovecraftian horrors from which the rest fled, was essentially left to those creatures when the overgods each split off their own realities. That means that it is concievable that the original reality is what became the Far Realm. More on this later.
The Slaad of the Realms, unlike the Slaad of other universes, did not get a "chaos plane" to become the natural inhabitants of, but Ao apparenly did want them involved in the "reboot." As such they ended up as creatures that formed as a sort of protest to the chaos being given form and order, and rose as one of the creator races. Many of them, not liking the increasingly orderly world, and not able to find a plane of pure chaos to live in, left via the Plane of Shadow and joined with the Slaad of other planes. To people in the Realms, they read this as the Slaad being a creator race and leaving for another reality, though the Slaad actually existed in the other reality as well. Unlike the demon lords and arch devils, which have alternate versions of themselves (as well as the celestial paragons)(i.e. there is a Greyhawk Asmodeus, a Faerun Asmodeus, etc.), the Slaad lords did not replicate into Realmsian reality becuase they are tied to a plane of chaos which never fully arose in the Torillian cosmology. Thus, unlike Orcus, etc, Ssendam and Ygorl and the like do not exist seperately in Faerun, though other Slaad lords developed (see Champions of Ruin).
Several worlds were left without a pantheon in the original universe, the one that became the Far Realms. The Lovecraftian hoojibs decided it would be fun to let some of their creations rule over them, and as such we have the Gith, who were the inhabitants of one of these hapless worlds given over to the Illithids. The Gith, therefore, are not native to any astral that they dwell in, but are travellers to all of them, and their lich queen only exists in one world's astral, with all Githyanki paying fealty to her and understanding multiple realities (intimated from several comments made by the Sojourner in the Erevis Cale books).
Lathander may have been driven mad by the realisation of the "reboot", and as such Ao felt sorry for him and didn't blame him for his actions.
More later. |
| AlacLuin |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 00:51:50
Thats about the least "Flaming" statement of things that can be called "Flaming" on those boards.
I think I've said worse on many occasions, Ironically, about the same person. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 00:33:24
quote:
Originally posted by Realmslore
Oops! I'll soon be joining you in the pentaly box Wooly.
Well that bites man, but it made me laugh and I showed it to Shemmy and he laughed as well. So some of us were amused by it. :) |
| Brian R. James |
Posted - 13 Aug 2005 : 00:21:35
Oops! I'll soon be joining you in the pentaly box Wooly.
User "Iakhovas",
Your comments on the "About Realms Cosmology and (core D&D) extraplanar
creature origin (no ranting)" thread on the Wizards Forums:
------
I want SKR to come out and say 'You know what, we thought it was a good
idea at the time, but now we know better and we're sorry.' I'm not holding
my breath. :P
------
Fall under the heading of "Flaming" and are a violation of the WotC Online
Code of Conduct (veiwable at http://www.wizards.com/coc) by which you
agreed to abide when you requested permission to post as a member of the
Wizards Online Community.
This email is an official warning that your behavior is unacceptable.
Further violations of the Wizards Online Code of Conduct may result in
disciplinary action up to and including your permanent removal from the
Online Community.
--
Respectfully,
WizO_Sith
Moderator, Wizards of the Coast Online Team. |
| Rocheval |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 19:15:25
Thanks guys for clearing me up. For some reason I thought there was a Dawnstone in existence before Myth Drannor. Anyways I found its history/stats in the campaign guide to Myth Drannor (not having world-shaking powers but it is unique, although it mentions there are lessor 'stones' in other temples). Again just throwing out ideas for devices that could cause apocalyptic destruction (Sorry, I know this is off the theme of the topic). Maybe Ao's google plus sweatsocks?  |
| Kuje |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 18:20:06
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
There is only one Dawnstone, and it was created a century ago by Lathander to serve as an alter for the temple in Myth Drannor. It is made of magic; it's not a real gemstone. And though it is an artifact with some nifty powers, it is, relatively speaking, not that powerful. All this is from Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, which is available for free on the WotC downloads page.
Spoiler
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And with the destruction of those faithful, we don't know what happened to the Dawnstone. :( |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 17:39:15
quote:
Originally posted by Rocheval
Also, about the Dawnstone in Myth Drannor perhaps its just a shard of the orignal dawnstone. There have been an instance similiar in another novel where a "lifestone" was the most powerful artifact on the world, and by using it would drain life from every living things instantly, leaving it a dead planet. As a by-product the Gods would also die as their power is bound to the living. I'm sure even if Ao allowed Lathander such destruction, others would intervene as mentioned by a previous poster, entities such as Ptah, Fate and the Celestial Bureaucracy. As for a crisis on infinite worlds, I think an entity something totally alien and primal to the Gods would make sense.
There is only one Dawnstone, and it was created a century ago by Lathander to serve as an alter for the temple in Myth Drannor. It is made of magic; it's not a real gemstone. And though it is an artifact with some nifty powers, it is, relatively speaking, not that powerful. All this is from Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, which is available for free on the WotC downloads page.
The Lifestone was a totally separate concept, a doomsday weapon designed by the Valheru. I've seen no evidence of any similar items in any D&D setting, not just the Realms. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 17:00:24
quote:
Originally posted by Rocheval
Its not an absolute physical connection but a metaphysical one. Also could someone set me straight about the whole planes and cosmology thing? I don't know if the 3ed still uses it but does Realmspace reside on its own prime material plane containing multi-universes and other campaign worlds exist on other alternate prime material planes?
With the retcon, each crystal sphere that were in the infinite prime of 2e are now thier own infinite primes. So each campaign setting now has thier own infinite prime instead of sharing the 1 prime of 2e. :) |
| Rocheval |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 16:16:28
Zounds! You guys are making my head spin. Forgive this humble ant for adding a few thoughts. Back to original topic, I don't think it matters if the entirety of the planes are embodied as a wheel or tree. Its all about the persception of which cosmology you use as a reference. Its not an absolute physical connection but a metaphysical one. Also could someone set me straight about the whole planes and cosmology thing? I don't know if the 3ed still uses it but does Realmspace reside on its own prime material plane containing multi-universes and other campaign worlds exist on other alternate prime material planes?
Also, about the Dawnstone in Myth Drannor perhaps its just a shard of the orignal dawnstone. There have been an instance similiar in another novel where a "lifestone" was the most powerful artifact on the world, and by using it would drain life from every living things instantly, leaving it a dead planet. As a by-product the Gods would also die as their power is bound to the living. I'm sure even if Ao allowed Lathander such destruction, others would intervene as mentioned by a previous poster, entities such as Ptah, Fate and the Celestial Bureaucracy. As for a crisis on infinite worlds, I think an entity something totally alien and primal to the Gods would make sense.
"Gods, I love a question I can't answer. It keeps things interesting, even after so many years." Marcos the Black
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| Shemmy |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 15:19:41
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
Maybe Ptah or Anubis triggered the event. Anubis is the Guardian of Dead Gods, and in this capacity doesn't he have overgod rank? Or something like it?
Maybe Anubis went insane. Maybe Anubis decided that the only way to properly guard the dead gods was for all the gods to become dead. Maybe Anubis tried to kill off all the gods and take each one in turn to the Astral, where he could keep them safe. Maybe he was starting to get real successful at it, prompting all the gods to flee in Crystal Spheres beyond the old unified Great Wheel cosmos where he could not reach them.
Funny you mention that, I've been working up something involving Anubis (set against a backdrop of a Psurlon/Githyanki war) for my 2nd Storyhour, though not quite with Anubis cast in the roll of insane killer o' the gods.
And the Guardian of the Dead Gods didn't have a divine rank, and wasn't considered divine really since Anubis voluntarily shed his godhod in the process of transcending to whatever you'd qualify The Guardian as. Best left undefined I figure. |
| khorne |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 11:55:02
quote:
Originally posted by Gray Richardson
A second Dawn Cataclysm by Lathander might also make for a good explanation. The first one went horribly wrong. We know he has been planning a second one for centuries. Maybe he has already set his plan in motion.
Heck, maybe he already initiated his second Dawn Cataclysm back in 1370 DR, and it damaged the cosmos so bad that Ao had to reboot the whole universe, move Realmspace into its own cosmology, and alter the timeline and people's memories of it back to the dawn of time.
If Lathander did something THAT bad then I think that Ao would have decided that Lathander had to go, preferrably with feet first, and having another god created to take at least some of his portfolios, and insuring that the new god wasn`t as retarded as Lathander so he wouldn`t attempt something similar. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 10:41:31
Thanks Grey . . .
Multiple Dendars . . . eek!
One of the things I was thinking of with the whole Dawn Cataclysm reboot issue is that perhaps learning that the universe has been restarted, perhaps more than once, was too much for a goddess of Reason, and that explains Murdane's demise.
Of course the whole Dawn Cataclysm as Lathander tampering with the reboot issue would cast Lathander as Parallax . . . |
| Gray Richardson |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 06:40:43
There is a great book by Charles Stross called The Attrocity Archive which takes place in the modern world but assumes that magic works and all the spy agencies of the world are out trying to supress knowledge of arcance magic and keep their respective countries ahead of the magical arms race. It's a fantastic novel, really. The best spy novel I have ever read. Check it out!
One of the premises is that a Frost Giant, really a cosmic Uber-Frost Giant, like Ymir, or some sort of entropy entity, is absorbing all the heat out of a parallel universe, and after it brings the premature heat death of each succesive universe (obliterating each one in the process) it moves on to the next one to feed.
That might make for a good premise for overgods to remove their respective crystal spheres from the multiverse and set them up in segregated cosmologies. If some sort of uber-beast, like Dendar, or a host of Dendars were released among the cosmos and started to swallow crystal spheres, devouring them, killing off crystal sphere after crystal sphere.
Great Lovecraftian creatures would certainly also fill the bill.
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A second Dawn Cataclysm by Lathander might also make for a good explanation. The first one went horribly wrong. We know he has been planning a second one for centuries. Maybe he has already set his plan in motion.
Heck, maybe he already initiated his second Dawn Cataclysm back in 1370 DR, and it damaged the cosmos so bad that Ao had to reboot the whole universe, move Realmspace into its own cosmology, and alter the timeline and people's memories of it back to the dawn of time.
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It should be noted that FR wasn't the only campaign world to split off into its own universe. Manual of the Planes established that all the campaign worlds now have their own separate cosmologies. Maybe the crisis should not be centered on Faerūn or triggered by a Realms event.
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Maybe Ptah or Anubis triggered the event. Anubis is the Guardian of Dead Gods, and in this capacity doesn't he have overgod rank? Or something like it?
Maybe Anubis went insane. Maybe Anubis decided that the only way to properly guard the dead gods was for all the gods to become dead. Maybe Anubis tried to kill off all the gods and take each one in turn to the Astral, where he could keep them safe. Maybe he was starting to get real successful at it, prompting all the gods to flee in Crystal Spheres beyond the old unified Great Wheel cosmos where he could not reach them.
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Those are just a few wild thoughts I had for the crisis. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 02:31:19
::taking a deep breath::
As my original post had nothing to do with the merits of the Great Wheel, nor about wheather you use it or the Great Tree, but rather, if you do use the Great Tree but wanted to reconcile the that Great Wheel may have once been connected to the Realms, how you would do it (read the second paragraph of my original, thread opening post), I thought I would give a last stab at the sort of conjecture that I was originally hoping to provoke.
My idea was that originally all of the various primes all existed in different places in the same universe. Eventually great Lovecraftian creatures became interested in the various domains throughout the universe, and the various gods pleaded with the Overgod to help them protect their realms from the Great Old . . . Things . . .
The Overgod created the crystal spheres and took the individual realms into the phlogiston where they would be safe from the GOTs. The Overgod then sundered its own personality so that part of itself resisded, in slightly different form, in each crystal sphere.
Eventually some aspect of the Overgod (my original theory was that it might have been Chaos from Krynn) caused an agitation in the phlogiston that began to crack the crystal spheres, and thus all of the overgods shifted the spheres back to "realspace" (thus also allowing Takhisis to pull her trick on Krynn).
In realspace, the GOTs took notice of the returning realms, so the Overgod aspects split their universes into alternate realities, none of them still leaving their realms in the "original" space that was inhabited by the GOTs.
The reacreation of reality rebooted the timeline and "retconned" the cosmology and spelljamming as well.
I also thought that the Dawn Cataclysm might have something to do with Lathander finding out about the universal reboot and trying to work it himself, and even that that Tablets of Fate might have needed to be recovered, not because they nessisarily were a threat to Ao, but that they explained the reworked universe.
THAT is the kind of thing I wanted to talk about.
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| The Sage |
Posted - 12 Aug 2005 : 02:01:25
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
And let's get this back on topic!
Indeed. I don't want to have to lock this one.
I was going to lock it but then I decided against it. :)
Agreed.
As I stated earlier, I would like to see us all get back on topic. You've all now had three moderators responding to the off-topic nature in this scroll. One more deviation, and this scroll will be LOCKED! 
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| Kuje |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 23:54:55
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
And let's get this back on topic!
Indeed. I don't want to have to lock this one.
I was going to lock it but then I decided against it. :) |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 23:50:27
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
And let's get this back on topic!
Indeed. I don't want to have to lock this one. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 11 Aug 2005 : 22:52:08
quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
Well that is all well and good, but tell that to people that have been with the realms since DRAGON. I would beg to differ and say that YOU in fact are wrong.
I have proof that realms was once or is part of the great wheel, and I am sure 3/4 of the scribes do here as well.
Ressurection is NOT the proof I was talking about. In fact in the 1st edition realms guide box set, it explained what part of the great wheel many of the Realms gods came from. Tyr actually WAS a viking god, and Mielikki WAS a finnish god, and yes even Sune was equated with Athena. You can find this in the 1st edition box set. It also talks about the planes, and so you will see that NO, in fact the realms WERE part of the great wheel.
I meant no offense, but it is rather annoying to hear someone deemed as WRONG because of an updated book. Get familiar with the older material before you make such statements.
Sigh,
After four years, I can't believe that this debate is still coming up.
The Wheel/Ring has been retconned out and the Tree has always been FR's cosmology. You didn't read my reply, did you? I said "The 3/3.5e design philosophy is this: The Tree has always existed as the cosmology and so that is now the canon cosmology. The Wheel/Ring is not the canon cosmology for FR and it never has been due to the retcon." Why is this so hard to grasp? The Player's Guide to Faerun also makes this clear because it says, "FR's cosmology is seperate and different then the core cosmology of Greyhawk, which is shaped like a Wheel/Ring." And so there are current sourcebooks and 3/3.5e game designers who have said, "FR's cosmology has always been the Tree because we RETCON'd it." And even Ed knows that there are now two seperate cosmologies, because he said so to Shemmy last year. There's FR's old cosmology, which never existed in FR because of the retcon, and then there's the retconned cosmology, which is the Tree, which has always existed.
And for the record, if you read my NPC file, you would see that I own all but 3 FR sourcebooks. Plus I own all but 1 Planescape sourcebook, which is the stetchbook, most of the Spelljammer sourcebooks, and a quarter of Ravenloft sourcebooks. So, I know what the planes are like in the old lore, thank you very much. And I know what they are in the new lore as well.
However, I repeat, to make it clear, hopefully. The game designers retconned out the Wheel/Ring and thus FR's cosmology has never been the Wheel/Ring and it's always been the Tree, according to 3/3.5e's retcon.
Now I'm truely done with this debate.
And let's get this back on topic! |
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