| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Syrovi |
Posted - 04 Aug 2005 : 15:37:09
Hi,
this is my 1st post - apart from the intro
I am looking for specific information about the mythals. I do not want to know how they are created or where some of them are located.
What I want to know is if the power of a mythal can be focussed on an object, which can be removed or destroyed.
I have found reference to the creation of a mythal, that stated that seeds were used in the creation of a mythal, which became the Great Tree. I also played Neverwinter Nights:Shadows of Underentide, where the mythal was described as a crystal - or maybe that was a mythalar???
The reason why I am asking is this: I am working on my 1st campaign in Faerun, and wanted to set it around the House of Jaelre Drow efforts to corrupt the mythals in Cormanthor for their own use. |
| 30 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 17:16:17
Ha, of course all non-elven Chosen in the Realms have at least a distant trace of elven blood in their ancestry. If not an actual elven taint then at the very least a healthy drop of uncertainty.  |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 05:00:30
quote:
Originally posted by TBeholder
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It is possible that drow possess the instrinsic capacity for elven high magic, even though no examples exist to confirm this.
Elven high magic is fundamentally based on profound connections between nature, the Weave, and their interactions.
...
I think drow can't use high magic; if they could then we would have seen them use it (especially against other drow). But I also think they wouldn't need it to construct mythals.
IMO, High Magic requires a specific connection to magic (the Weave), and it's intricate enough that one may lose ability to use High Magic, but still be a normal elf and archmage (like Mythanthar). The drow are demonstrably different from surface elves as magical creatures. Much like a dragon could not use High Magic and an elf could not use dragon-magic.
Of course, this comparison may mean that drow as a different kind of highly magical creatures, are potentially capable of devising forms of magic use that would fit specifically them... and may include yet another unique path to advanced magic? 
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Which makes sense, if you consider High Magic to be a gift from the Seldarine.
Aye, but... hishna was a gift to Mazticans from Zaltec. After which, pluma was a gift to Mazticans from Qotal. Neither, interestingly enough, have any prerequisites, including "alignment" and "patron deity". They merely are optimal for different tasks, while appealing to - and encouraging - different attitudes. So... I won't assume anything not written plainly in such matters. 
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
When did elves first learn high magic? From their (stolen) copy of the Nether scrolls?
See also: "Dracorage Mythal". That was circa -25k DR by GHotR.  Even not counting that, elves had a lot of such toys back before they deigned to notice humans at all, let alone teach early Netherese the first cantrips.
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
My point was maybe they just don't know how. Or maybe due to their untrusting nature it is extremely difficult for a group of drow to link as needed (though if Red Wizards can form a circle, so can drow in my book);
The former is unlikely, due to the scale of Descent and powerful magic obviously being an extremely valuable resource before they adapted - not on "keep in a locked coffer, will ya?" level, but on "backup again!!!" level. The latter is irrelevant for Rituals of Solitude.
Both Pluma magic and dragon magic can be learned by others given the correct circumstances. Similarly, the drow priests of Vhaerun work a high magic spell given knowledge of it and proper resources (the stolen souls). I think EVERYONE is connected to the weave equally - it is by definition the web of all life on Toril. The big difference between everyone and elves is that the elves are more attuned to this connection. This makes it simpler and more common for elves to do, but not impossible for others.
We already know that non-elven chosen can work high magic (though all of them described as doing so have had a trace of elven ancestry). They also have a more open connection to the weave.
Further, the whole idea behind the alternative solo school of High Magic is that the ritual performed enhances this connection by coupling it with a planar creature. This would suggest to me that these planar creatures have the ability to use high magic as well.
I contend that given the proper insights others could use high magic, though it would be an extraordinary accomplishment.
As far as when elves first used high magic - the ritual performed to come to Toril (in EC's Evermeet) was High Magic. They formed a circle and risked their lives in the attempt but it succeeded. (This confirms that elves other than High Mages CAN use high magic - in the book it was priests, mages, and 'rogues' - at extreme risk, if they know how. High Magic having become more dangerous, rituals have gotten more and more rare and secretive so common elves do not have the requisite knowledge any more. |
| TBeholder |
Posted - 06 Mar 2013 : 04:15:55
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
It is possible that drow possess the instrinsic capacity for elven high magic, even though no examples exist to confirm this.
Elven high magic is fundamentally based on profound connections between nature, the Weave, and their interactions.
...
I think drow can't use high magic; if they could then we would have seen them use it (especially against other drow). But I also think they wouldn't need it to construct mythals.
IMO, High Magic requires a specific connection to magic (the Weave), and it's intricate enough that one may lose ability to use High Magic, but still be a normal elf and archmage (like Mythanthar). The drow are demonstrably different from surface elves as magical creatures. Much like a dragon could not use High Magic and an elf could not use dragon-magic.
Of course, this comparison may mean that drow as a different kind of highly magical creatures, are potentially capable of devising forms of magic use that would fit specifically them... and may include yet another unique path to advanced magic?
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Which makes sense, if you consider High Magic to be a gift from the Seldarine.
Aye, but... hishna was a gift to Mazticans from Zaltec. After which, pluma was a gift to Mazticans from Qotal. Neither, interestingly enough, have any prerequisites, including "alignment" and "patron deity". They merely are optimal for different tasks, while appealing to - and encouraging - different attitudes. So... I won't assume anything not written plainly in such matters.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
When did elves first learn high magic? From their (stolen) copy of the Nether scrolls?
See also: "Dracorage Mythal". That was circa -25k DR by GHotR. Even not counting that, elves had a lot of such toys back before they deigned to notice humans at all, let alone teach early Netherese the first cantrips.
quote:
Originally posted by The Masked Mage
My point was maybe they just don't know how. Or maybe due to their untrusting nature it is extremely difficult for a group of drow to link as needed (though if Red Wizards can form a circle, so can drow in my book);
The former is unlikely, due to the scale of Descent and powerful magic obviously being an extremely valuable resource before they adapted - not on "keep in a locked coffer, will ya?" level, but on "backup again!!!" level. The latter is irrelevant for Rituals of Solitude. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 09:44:01
Totally agree that in 2nd E it said drow could not use high magic. My point was maybe they just don't know how. Or maybe due to their untrusting nature it is extremely difficult for a group of drow to link as needed (though if Red Wizards can form a circle, so can drow in my book); they have the potential, but their intellect gets in the way of their wisdom. Saying "those dirty drow can't use high magic" sounds like something a gold would say, not because its true but as an insult.
Also, who's to say there is not more than one kind of High Magic? By this I mean there tend to be things based on life and energy and then opposites based on darker principles. Perhaps the illithiri learned a different, now forgotten form of high magic (most of their rituals would have been useless underground and so, in the rush to claim power and survive, forgotten)
I also always thought that the fire spiders that burned down the forest seemed more like high magic than the low level spell detailed in 3rd ed.
I had actually forgotten about that example Wooly thanks - apparently their stupid spell worked on me as well :P - in fact, I seem to have blocked as much of those books out of my head as possible.
|
| The Hidden Lord |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 09:37:55
quote:
Originally posted by Nicolai Withander
You sure that the Silverymoone "Mythal" is only layers of normal wards and protective spells???
Yes.
(The Moonbridge is super fancy, though.) |
| The Hidden Lord |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 09:20:25
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Well, the original lore had them flat out excluded from being able to use it. I'd take that to mean that even if trained, they'd not be able to use it.
True.
However, it was rumored that the Drow had developed their own version of High Magic, back in the AD&D days.
It would not be surprising to me that, over a decade later, (3E days) that this plot hook reached fruition. |
| The Hidden Lord |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 09:16:59
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
When did elves first learn high magic? From their (stolen) copy of the Nether scrolls?
Yep.
Then they traveled back in time 14,000 years and taught High Magic to the Elves of that era, so they could pull off the Sundering.
 |
| Nicolai Withander |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 09:03:06
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
Here is what I remember...there are 3 types of mythals, 3 methods on making a mythal
1) Elven High Magic mythals (created by elven high magic  )
2) Wizardly mythals (created by 10+ Lv spells/true dweomers/epic magic/etc.)
3) Layers of wards and magical fields, one on top of each other, until it seems you have a mythal effect (like Netherese Mythalars, Undermountain, Silverymoon or the drow mansions)
and I have a dim memory that I read somewhere that during the Descent (when the dark elves were deemed "Drouew" (sp?) and fled into the Underdark and became the drow) Corellon removed the drows connection from the Weave thus the drow cannot work Elven High magic anymore...thus they cannot cast or manipulate an Elven High Magic Mythal...so a drow creating a mythal would have to resort to #2 or #3 method
and yes, the Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves is the best book overall for mythals..the old box set Ruins of Myth Drannor may have a bit of info too (the Cormanthyr book's Myth Drannor mythal was based of the box set's mythal)
You sure that the Silverymoone "Mythal" is only layers of normal wards and protective spells??? |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 05:27:23
Is there any evidence of elven high magic or mythals on other worlds?
When did elves first learn high magic? From their (stolen) copy of the Nether scrolls? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 05:23:17
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Perhaps they could have relearned or developed their own particular high magic from their ilythiri ancestors?
Well, the original lore had them flat out excluded from being able to use it. I'd take that to mean that even if trained, they'd not be able to use it.
Of course, the arbitrary culling of the drow pantheon threw that lore out the window.  |
| Xar Zarath |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 05:11:34
Perhaps they could have relearned or developed their own particular high magic from their ilythiri ancestors? |
| Wooly Rupert |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 04:31:39
In earlier material discussing High Magic, whenever requirements for its use were described, other races of elves were listed -- but never drow.
Which makes sense, if you consider High Magic to be a gift from the Seldarine.
That all said, 3E chucked this out the window (along with so much else) by letting drow use High Magic -- it was how they offed Kiaransalee. They used High Magic to make everyone forget about Kia, and in another burst of the inexplicable, she instantly died from this. |
| Ayrik |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 01:44:02
It is possible that drow possess the instrinsic capacity for elven high magic, even though no examples exist to confirm this.
Elven high magic is fundamentally based on profound connections between nature, the Weave, and their interactions. The "unnatural" faez'ress radiations of the Underdark might interfere with high magic. Innate drow magic resistance might make it impossible for their race to use high magic. Societal norms (such as matrons killing wizards who become too threatening, or High Mages invariably being of the noblest elven bloodlines, or the relentless elven purges of any N'Tel'Quessir who attempt high magic) might force drow high mages into utmost secrecy, or may have gradually purged high magic aptitude and knowledge out of their elven clade.
Have drow demonstrated any capacities to use or create artifacts of high magic - kiira (tel'kiira, selu'kiira, etc), diadems, elfblades, moonblades?
Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves describes mythals in detail, along with the capacities and construction of two kinds of mythals (High Magic and Wizardly). It also says "the Old Ways are, of course, the best and most proper way to create mythals" and we have seen a shadow mage rejuvenate a mythal, suggesting that mythals can be built without any need for elven high magic.
I think drow can't use high magic; if they could then we would have seen them use it (especially against other drow). But I also think they wouldn't need it to construct mythals. |
| The Masked Mage |
Posted - 31 Jan 2013 : 00:24:11
I'd say there is no reason at all that drow could not create a wizardly mythal or layered ward spells.
I'd also have to argue, based on recent novels that describe differences between "true drow" vs. "dark elves" that drow would be capable of High Magic, despite the claims in Cormanthyr Empire of Elves to the contrary. I'd suggest that this is what is believed to be true, not was IS true. I see no reason why a drow who came across the right lore could not perform the ritual to bind himself to an extra-planar entity and gain the ability to wield high magic single handedly.
I do agree that playing around with mythals should be much more difficult than the Last Mythal book makes it. At the very least, making such changes should draw on the mortals life force, as creating the mythal in the first place drew on the caster's. |
| Kalin Agrivar |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 14:15:39
Here is what I remember...there are 3 types of mythals, 3 methods on making a mythal
1) Elven High Magic mythals (created by elven high magic )
2) Wizardly mythals (created by 10+ Lv spells/true dweomers/epic magic/etc.)
3) Layers of wards and magical fields, one on top of each other, until it seems you have a mythal effect (like Netherese Mythalars, Undermountain, Silverymoon or the drow mansions)
and I have a dim memory that I read somewhere that during the Descent (when the dark elves were deemed "Drouew" (sp?) and fled into the Underdark and became the drow) Corellon removed the drows connection from the Weave thus the drow cannot work Elven High magic anymore...thus they cannot cast or manipulate an Elven High Magic Mythal...so a drow creating a mythal would have to resort to #2 or #3 method
and yes, the Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves is the best book overall for mythals..the old box set Ruins of Myth Drannor may have a bit of info too (the Cormanthyr book's Myth Drannor mythal was based of the box set's mythal)
|
| warlockco |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 09:28:28
Dragons of Faerun has given us 3 new Epics spells using the Mythal seed. |
| GothicDan |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 05:22:40
I kind of prefer Cormanthyr's Mythal creation, myself. :) |
| Kagan Clearwater |
Posted - 14 Aug 2006 : 04:12:39
Lost Empires is the way to go if you want current info on mythals. Depending on how the mythal was setup determines if it could be affected by one entity. That is the anchorable trait. If entity with HD equal to the CL of the mythal that is opposite alignment to that of the creator stays in the vicinity for 24 hours, it stresses the mythal.
This info is straight from the LEoF book. Hope that helps. Also, I'm close to finishing my excel spreadsheet for creating a mythal if anyone is interested. It can be filled out and printed on ONE page. I can post a link later on. |
| KnightErrantJR |
Posted - 06 Aug 2005 : 19:33:14
And getting back to the original post:
Vhearun might know WHERE his followers might be able to find mythal lore, though I doubt that the other gods would allow him to just "cut and paste" the information into the brains of the Jaelre clerics and wizards.
A good campaign hook might be trying to find kira gems that would allow the drow to learn about mythal craft before they could find them. You might also have the Jaelre have a specific wizard that has learned how to fuse his essese with that of a fiend in order to be powerful enough to access the powers of the Mythal. I would, just to be different and to add some spice, make the fiend a Yugoloth.
Cormanthyr, Empires of Elves, the old Ruins of Myth Drannor Boxed Set, and Lost Empires of Faerun all have useful information on Mythals, though if you just need information on what your villains need to corrupt it (and what your heroes need to do to stop them) you don't need to know every angle about the Mythal and how it is created.
Oh, and mythals have a focusing point at which they can be accessed, usually a stone set somewhere near the center of the effect. Mythals are essentially living magical fields, as as living things can get quirky over time if not tended. The whole reason that anyone can really mess with mythals NOW is that they have been left untended and are warped and failing (though that does not mean that they WILL fail).
Mythallars are like magical generators that the Netherese used to power effects similar too, but not quite as majestic as, elven Mythals (the Netherese learned their magic from the elves). The Shadow Mythallar in Shade is what provides the power for the city to move and float above the desert.
|
| warlockco |
Posted - 06 Aug 2005 : 06:48:01
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
I was also thinking specifically of the House Do'Urden where the nobles of the house were allowed additional/unlimited levitates when posessing a certain token, and most probably other things as well. (Poison Resistance sounds advisable amongst other things.) While not strictly a Mythal, it does simulate some of the features the Myth Drannor Mythal possessed.
Item in question you are thinking of is the House Insignia that all Nobles of Menzoberranzan have. These "trinkets" can be quite powerful, and they function for only one person.
A common feature for most House Insignias and especially House Do'Urden's was unlimited usage of Levitate.
A feature that all the "high tier" members of House Baenre had was Word of Recall to the throneroom in House Baenre.
Which retcons the old lore because those powers were used without the insignia's and they were innate powers of noble and standard drow.
True, but in the novels it was specifically pointed out that the Insignias of House Do'Urden allowed the family members to use their powers more often than most other drow. |
| Kuje |
Posted - 06 Aug 2005 : 06:16:30
quote:
Originally posted by warlockco
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
I was also thinking specifically of the House Do'Urden where the nobles of the house were allowed additional/unlimited levitates when posessing a certain token, and most probably other things as well. (Poison Resistance sounds advisable amongst other things.) While not strictly a Mythal, it does simulate some of the features the Myth Drannor Mythal possessed.
Item in question you are thinking of is the House Insignia that all Nobles of Menzoberranzan have. These "trinkets" can be quite powerful, and they function for only one person.
A common feature for most House Insignias and especially House Do'Urden's was unlimited usage of Levitate.
A feature that all the "high tier" members of House Baenre had was Word of Recall to the throneroom in House Baenre.
Which retcons the old lore because those powers were used without the insignia's and they were innate powers of noble and standard drow. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 06 Aug 2005 : 05:45:25
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
I was also thinking specifically of the House Do'Urden where the nobles of the house were allowed additional/unlimited levitates when posessing a certain token, and most probably other things as well. (Poison Resistance sounds advisable amongst other things.) While not strictly a Mythal, it does simulate some of the features the Myth Drannor Mythal possessed.
Item in question you are thinking of is the House Insignia that all Nobles of Menzoberranzan have. These "trinkets" can be quite powerful, and they function for only one person.
A common feature for most House Insignias and especially House Do'Urden's was unlimited usage of Levitate.
A feature that all the "high tier" members of House Baenre had was Word of Recall to the throneroom in House Baenre. |
| Kaldar-maaren |
Posted - 06 Aug 2005 : 02:34:04
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by jameslt0
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
But, if you remember, Vhaeraun has mostly always quested for the surface and has been up there quite a bit to learn the mythalcraft. Also, he was once a member of the Seldarine, so he probably has soom clue as to high elven magic works. And if you are telling me Gromph Baenre can't tweek a mythal, well I don't know!
C-Fb
I don't believe Gromph could tweek a mythal that easily, if at all. However, I do believe the Archmage of Menzoberranzan could easily destroy or defeat one.
I have severe difficulties picturing a single mortal, no matter how powerful, defeating a mythal on his own.
Just read the Last Mythal trilogy by Richard Baker - after the Gold Elves decided to combine their essences with demons/eladrins, they were able to know understand and control the functions of the Mythals. A signle Elf proficient with high magic and some resilience could do this.
C-Fb
It appears that the mythals are no longer considered as formidable magic shields that can bar almost every uninvited guest since these "elves" know how to manipulate the mythals that easily. |
| Crennen FaerieBane |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 16:07:51
quote:
Originally posted by khorne
quote:
Originally posted by jameslt0
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
But, if you remember, Vhaeraun has mostly always quested for the surface and has been up there quite a bit to learn the mythalcraft. Also, he was once a member of the Seldarine, so he probably has soom clue as to high elven magic works. And if you are telling me Gromph Baenre can't tweek a mythal, well I don't know!
C-Fb
I don't believe Gromph could tweek a mythal that easily, if at all. However, I do believe the Archmage of Menzoberranzan could easily destroy or defeat one.
I have severe difficulties picturing a single mortal, no matter how powerful, defeating a mythal on his own.
Just read the Last Mythal trilogy by Richard Baker - after the Gold Elves decided to combine their essences with demons/eladrins, they were able to know understand and control the functions of the Mythals. A signle Elf proficient with high magic and some resilience could do this.
C-Fb |
| khorne |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 14:24:08
quote:
Originally posted by jameslt0
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
But, if you remember, Vhaeraun has mostly always quested for the surface and has been up there quite a bit to learn the mythalcraft. Also, he was once a member of the Seldarine, so he probably has soom clue as to high elven magic works. And if you are telling me Gromph Baenre can't tweek a mythal, well I don't know!
C-Fb
I don't believe Gromph could tweek a mythal that easily, if at all. However, I do believe the Archmage of Menzoberranzan could easily destroy or defeat one.
I have severe difficulties picturing a single mortal, no matter how powerful, defeating a mythal on his own. |
| Forge |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 14:23:32
I was also thinking specifically of the House Do'Urden where the nobles of the house were allowed additional/unlimited levitates when posessing a certain token, and most probably other things as well. (Poison Resistance sounds advisable amongst other things.) While not strictly a Mythal, it does simulate some of the features the Myth Drannor Mythal possessed. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 07:29:33
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
I would be quite surprised if the protecting and enhancing wards around some of the Drow House compounds weren't tied into a central source much as a Mythal was. I'd say that if not exactly the same, the Drow would have SOME idea the concepts behind the Mythals.
Menzoberranzan has several warding and alarm type spells around it that functions in a way very similar to a Mythal. |
| warlockco |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 07:28:18
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
You might consult the FR books (Methinks it's out of the Shining South book). There is a feat about Mythal creation and a spell: Seed: Mythal Creation.
Basically you start with the spell and a bunch of helpers and start adding features you want. You find out what you want then tally up the total EXP you have to spend and make the correct checks and booyah... Mythal.
Might help in formulating your campaign.
The book you are thinking of is Lost Empires of Faerun. |
| The Sage |
Posted - 05 Aug 2005 : 02:52:05
Magic of Faerun also details a little about mythals, as well as providing a listing of known mythals in the Realms.
|
| jameslt0 |
Posted - 04 Aug 2005 : 23:07:47
quote:
Originally posted by CrennenFaerieBane
But, if you remember, Vhaeraun has mostly always quested for the surface and has been up there quite a bit to learn the mythalcraft. Also, he was once a member of the Seldarine, so he probably has soom clue as to high elven magic works. And if you are telling me Gromph Baenre can't tweek a mythal, well I don't know!
C-Fb
I don't believe Gromph could tweek a mythal that easily, if at all. However, I do believe the Archmage of Menzoberranzan could easily destroy or defeat one. |
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