| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 08 Jul 2005 : 01:53:18
I divert myself from my own topic of dictionaries and grammars to seek input on something which has occured to me recently. I have a character of sufficiently high level to have burned the x.p. needed to make the Tongues and Comprehend Languages spells Permanent upon himself, but I don't like Monty Haulism and Munchkinism, so I inquire of the Sages Linguistic if they think that such spells should automatically grant competence in languages from other planes or crystal spheres or the languages of Outsiders and weird things which don't think like humans, demi-humans, dragons, and Heavenly and Hellish beings, all of whom seem to have facility learning one another's speech.
I would presume that human and demi-human "Common" speech is the same all over (a subject hashed to death on many boards in many lands), but would Outsider languages be automatically understood, too, given that the ability granted by the spell is purely magical? Wizzes get so few skill points that I am loath to spend them on extra languages, but it's nice think that there might be some linguistic challenges left for him.
I have already decided that the Book of Vile Darkness "Dark Speech," and Words of Creation, True Names, etc. should require a feat or feat-equivalent adventuring to master (a Loremaster's bonus language, for example). That's quite a few levels of adventuring, taking him up into Epic levels (when the Epic feat of Polyglot becomes available). Do the sages think that questing for those mystic langues is sufficient challenge and that allowing him all other "normal" languages is merely a stepping stone to those linguistic heights or do Comprehend Languages and Epic Polyglot require reining in? |
| 5 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jamallo Kreen |
Posted - 08 Jul 2005 : 08:17:42
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
My view is one would understand only the words.
"Come into my parlor"
Can be a safe invitation or one that has great danger. I do not see and at least some lore appears to support that knowing a word is not the same as lnowing how the word is intended in context. Knowing the culture is requied in addition to known what is actual said. Elves in their speach use infection to voice and body languge that none Elves can not fully understand.
Comprehend Languages " The ability to read does not necessarily impart insight into the material, merely its literal meaning."
Tongues " This spell grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature," this only slightly better as garmmar might be understood, however still the culture is not conveyed in speech.
Both spells deal with word spoken , not the strage smile or other expressions and body lamguage that might be used.
I read and think that I understand what you have written. My boy must still make a skill check to grok what he has translated if it is some unusal concept or an idiom with which he may be unfamiliar.
Robert Welch gave a stellar example of what I think you are trying to convey. He cited the French translation of "Bonjour, Macbeth" for "All hail Macbeth!" -- an absolutely correct translation ... which is devoid of most of the meaning in the Kling... er ... English original, and which carries none of the promise and menace of the English words. They are three simple words which cannot be rigorously translated into any other language, as far as I know, words whose weight is conveyed only when they are spoken; a comma, which would represent the breath taken between "hail" and "Macbeth" casts the meaning in concrete and removes the Hellish ambiguity of the salutation, which is "both fair and foul" in English and only in English.
I think that you are suggesting that Comprehend Languages works somewhat like the process of transcribing a spell: the words of a spell may be correctly copied, but a Spellcraft check is still required to make sense of them. Tongues would not assist in the understanding of another language, because all it does is render the idiom of the speaker into the idiom of the listener; if the speaker has misunderstood the nuances of meaning (which is, I suppose the "insight" spoken of in the 3E PHB), what he says will be confusing to his listener, e.g., Cyrano de Bergerac's statement in Rostand's play that his "white plume" cannot be taken from him -- again, a correct translation, but grossly inadequate, for the French word is "panache," which means "panache," but also "plume." Someone using Comprehend Languages might dwell on Cyrano's plume and never grasp what he was implying when he made the statement.
quote:
Cyrano: One thing is left, that, void of stain or smutch, I bear away despite you...
Roxane: 'Tis?..
Cyrano: My panache.
Cyrano de Bergerac V. vi. 294
Thus, to return to the sheep on my scroll about dictionaries and grammars, a mere word list of Drow and its corresponding term in Common could never convey all of the shades of meaning with which Drowish would be freighted. I am certain that the Drow words which we might translate as "Lady" or "Madam" or "Mother" have levels of visceral resonances which non-Drow cannot appreciate.
Have I grokked your meaning?
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| Icewolf |
Posted - 08 Jul 2005 : 04:39:29
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
My view is one would understand only the words.
"Come into my parlor"
Can be a safe invitation or one that has great danger. <snip>
But that is quite fun to DM though...
"A beautiful woman steps outside the building and gestures you inside with her hand, speaking a language none of you understand...
Player: I cast Tongues!
"Come into my parlor...I was just about to have a snack..."
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| Kentinal |
Posted - 08 Jul 2005 : 03:07:25
My view is one would understand only the words.
"Come into my parlor"
Can be a safe invitation or one that has great danger. I do not see and at least some lore appears to support that knowing a word is not the same as lnowing how the word is intended in context. Knowing the culture is requied in addition to known what is actual said. Elves in their speach use infection to voice and body languge that none Elves can not fully understand.
Comprehend Languages " The ability to read does not necessarily impart insight into the material, merely its literal meaning."
Tongues " This spell grants the creature touched the ability to speak and understand the language of any intelligent creature," this only slightly better as garmmar might be understood, however still the culture is not conveyed in speech.
Both spells deal with word spoken , not the strage smile or other expressions and body lamguage that might be used. |
| CreepyBastard |
Posted - 08 Jul 2005 : 02:51:04
quote:
Random Wizard A cannot speak Celestial. Said wizard comes across a creature that can only speak Celestial. So, the wizard casts Tongues. The wizard is STILL not able to speak or understand Celestial. Tongues is merely the...3rd party translator, for lack of being able to think of a better term.
The same goes for Comprehend Languages.
As a long time player and DM, I would like to add weight to Icewolf's interpretation. In my understanding of the spells, he is essentially correct.
Since the spells are now permanent, for all intents and purposes that player will be able to speak/read/understand any spoken/written word (Until the spell is removed, of course) on a whim.
One question I do have, however, is how to interpret the Tongues the spell.
"Tongues [PHB, p294]: ...The subject can only speak one language at a time, although it may be able to understand several languages..."
This is based on the assumption that spell is cast for a limited duration and meant to focus on a single language. Since the spell is permanent, couldn't the character turn to a group of several creatures - each speaking a different language - and converse freely with each? This would presume that each time the character speaks the tongues spell is "recast" or "reset" instantly.
That would be my best interpretation. Any thoughts?
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| Icewolf |
Posted - 08 Jul 2005 : 02:18:10
It should be noted that those spells only allow you to understanc languages, but in no means does it say that you actually understand that language.
I know...its confusing. Let me explain.
Random Wizard A cannot speak Celestial. Said wizard comes across a creature that can only speak Celestial. So, the wizard casts Tongues. The wizard is STILL not able to speak or understand Celestial. Tongues is merely the...3rd party translator, for lack of being able to think of a better term.
The same goes for Comprehend Languages.
I, as always, reserve the right to be mistaken. |
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